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He mentioned corporations as an example, and you keep obsessing over it. His point is that people are as greedy as corporate ceos or whoever, and those who aren't ... well, they're making a virtue out of failure. That's the point, not corporations per se.
You still haven't answered my question: do you believe that?
Are we expecting too much from corporations? Are we expecting them to be something that is not in their mission?
Most people expect corporations to be mother Teresa even when it's palpably clear that businesses are about profits rather than principles. It is like expecting a solider to be nonviolent and getting disappointed later on.
He mentioned corporations as an example, and you keep obsessing over it. His point is that people are as greedy as corporate ceos or whoever, and those who aren't ... well, they're making a virtue out of failure. That's the point, not corporations per se.
You still haven't answered my question: do you believe that?
It is possible to be passionate and driven and not at all in regard to materialistic greed and success in the definitions prescribed to by modern business
@music: what is your personal experience? You are describing a rather selfish way of life, suggesting that this way of life is natural human behavior. Have you experienced for yourself (or observed in people near you) that this way of life leads to happiness? If not, why are you stressing the view that humans are selfish? And do you think that happiness is even possible? (It's not a cynical question, it could shed some light on where you stand).
Aha. So you believe your friend is speaking the truth. I think his view shortchanges a lot of very bright people who've done intelligent and well-informed economic analysis, paints a large swath of people with the same brush, which is rarely a valid position, and appears to demonstrate an overly-simplistic view of the values that motivate people in life. Maybe he didn't mean the statement to be categorical. There probably is some sour-grapes mentality in some individuals critical of no-holds-barred capitalism. Reality is much more complex and nuanced than that. Humans are diverse.
As for having the wrong expectations of corporations: cutthroat economics, slashing worker pay and benefits, is ultimately self-destructive. If you don't pay your workers enough that they can afford your products, you'll eventually crash. Henry Ford understood this. Not only will the companies erode their customer base, but struggling workers will become vulnerable to extremist politics. Some South American countries have a half-dozen far-left political parties, and mass strikes are common. This leads to political instability, needless to say. Ecuador and Bolivia are cases in point. This is Political Economics 101.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
"America’s inner contradiction was the altruist-collectivist ethics. Altruism is incompatible with freedom, with capitalism and with individual rights. One cannot combine the pursuit of happiness with the moral status of a sacrificial animal."
OMG! Well, fortunately, she's literally history. Of course, it's nonsense that altruism and freedom are incompatible. Rand swung to the opposite extreme, after experiencing the worst of communism (it was pretty raw back in the earliest decades). I thought most people had forgotten her, but maybe she's staging a comeback, with the extreme conservatism that's been gaining ground....
I guess my original point was: do any of us really know anyone who thinks this way (not counting parents, possibly--lol!), or is it more a projection of our minds, based on stereotypes, news articles about corporate greed, etc.? If we accept the corporate view of reality or "society", then we've given up. Think about all your friends and their friends. They don't hold these greed values, do they? And aren't they just as much a part of "society" as corporate CEO's? It's easy to focus on the negative, but if we discount the positive, then in a way we've given in to the negative--we've become part of the problem instead of the solution. If we buy into the inevitability of selfishness & greed, then greed has won.
She is hardly forgotten. They very recently turned Atlas Shrugged into a movie. My old roommate was such a huge fan, she actually considered herself an Objectivist (a person who subscribes to Ayn Rand's philosophy). Between a Buddhist and an Objectivist, it made for some very interesting conversations, believe me. To bring this up to current politics, in the recent election, Paul Ryan was quoted saying that Ayn Rand inspired him.
"It taught me quite a bit about who I am and what my value systems are and what my beliefs are," Ryan said. "It's inspired me so much that it's required reading in my office for all my interns and my staff."
Ryan went on to say that "the reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand. And the fight we are in here, make no mistake about it, is a fight of individualism versus collectivism."
I know people as well who consider them Ayn Rand followers, who posted lots of her ideals during election season and such. I tried to read her books more than once and just could not get through them. I found them boring and odd, and not in a good way. Some of the people who are supporters of her ideas are generally really smart people who don't jump on bandwagons, so I find it interesting the see her ways as the way we should go. One of them is the long term boyfriend of one of my best girlfriends, who is a die hard socialist. They must have interesting discussions.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
I've read Anthem and The Fountainhead and like 900 pages of Atlas Shrugged... somehow, I just couldn't bring myself to finish the last 200 or so. I think the only thing that kept me reading the previous 500 was only because I wanted to know who the f#@% John Galt was, lol. She's okay... but I wouldn't say I found myself inspired or really riveted. I have had the movie version of Atlas Shrugged sitting in my Netflix queue for a really long time, but I heard it was bad so I haven't quite been bored enough to watch it yet.
I know people as well who consider them Ayn Rand followers, who posted lots of her ideals during election season and such. I tried to read her books more than once and just could not get through them. I found them boring and odd, and not in a good way. Some of the people who are supporters of her ideas are generally really smart people who don't jump on bandwagons, so I find it interesting the see her ways as the way we should go. One of them is the long term boyfriend of one of my best girlfriends, who is a die hard socialist. They must have interesting discussions.
I think it's a symptom of the polit-economic malaise we've been struggling through.
So society involves suffering. So we focus on the solutions individually and collectively. Pointing at people with arrow wounds on the battlefield is just a distraction if our arrow needs removing too . . .
In the Madhyamagama Sutra, the Buddha used the parable of a man wounded by an arrow to explain why we should practice the Dharma now. In the story, a man was pierced by an arrow, and a doctor was immediately summoned to have the arrow pulled and the wound treated. However, the wounded man insisted to find out who shot the arrow before he would let the doctor treat him. Was it a man or a woman? Was the attacker young or old? Which direction did it come from? What was the arrowhead made of? How big was the bow that shot the arrow? What kind of feathers was used? The wounded man would definitely die of poisoning before his desire for knowing all the information was satisfied.
The Buddha told us that our minds are so seriously wounded that we are in need of immediate treatment.
@Dakini I have an unemployed friend who is often ridiculed by his family members who are better off. Before you think he's a victim, remember that he never misses a chance to mock his neighbor who is in a far worse situation, financially and otherwise. So is my unemployed friend a victim or a bully? Or is he both from two different standpoints? Catch my drift?
" the buddha did not change the world.. he made peace with the conditions in it"..
of COURSE society is sick... all beings in all the world systems are sick with the fire of craving and becoming . We cannot change that, we can only make peace with it, work towards our own salvation from samsara and hopefully teach some dhamma to other beings who may listen along the way.
No, I don't catch your drift. I can't get past the awfulness of this situation. Why are you friends with a guy like that?
I wish I knew, lol. Point is, nobody is entirely a victim or a bully. Usually, people are a mixture of both. So we must base our actions and ideas on this specific conclusion.
A "sick" society is one view, and a "not sick" society is another view. It seems there are many views regarding "society", not just one. I think the quote is simply suggesting that we should not live blindly, and adjusting ourselves to something that we do not have a big picture of. Whether or not society is sick is probably something we should not rest on. Just my view on it.
In my opinion, patience and understanding are crucial to change. Society has developed some sick habits perhaps, but it has also developed some compassionate ones as well. We have a young mentality. Let us set the seeds of growth. No need to dwell.
i think society is sick. avarice is praised and kindness is commonly viewed as a weakness. thats sickness, IMO.
Who views kindness as a weakness? I don't know anyone like that. I'm wondering where this idea comes from. I'm not so sure avarice is praised, either. The 1% isn't very popular with "society" right now, and "society" voted against tax policy that would make the rich richer in the recent Presidential elections.
well i dont watch this stuff but isn't there a bunch of tv shows that do exactly that? "the apprentice" is one that immediately comes to mind, and any of those reality game shows highlight ruthlessness as a required trait to win the games? i have family members who love those shows
BTW- i do not look to television to form my opinions of society, but i know that many people do. they are not, typically, buddhists though. most people i know are not buddhists, they are TVists.
also, somone mentioned Warren Buffet, earlier in the thread and my only knowledge of this man comes from his grandaughter who is a buddhist- she took part in a documentary which i cant recall the name of (i think it was called "the %1") and it was made by the son of the johnson and johnson corps ceo, i think. he interviews many children/grandchildren of extremely wealthy families about how they look at their fortunate births and lives, and Buffet's grandaughter has very interesting things to say: she essentially says that her grandfather is totally greed driven, and that his lust for money and power is a sickness, even an addiction. at the end of the documentary, they tell you that Buffet had disowned his grandaughter because of her involvement in making the film. is that not a very "sick" picture of avarice? and his grandaughter is a kind, candle lighting, buddhist nanny for chldren. thats her "chosen" proffession.
Yeah Buffet is like, a cartoon villain. He's hilarious. He goes on and on about taxes, and famously finds any loophole he can to take advantage of.
Stephen King I think was mentioned in the same post... He does a lot of charity work and I can't help but think he's a totally cool guy. I haven't read any of his books (horror is not my thing) but On Writing is a work of art.
I think we should look much deeper then rich people, banks, and corporations for the root of the problem.. These are easy scapegoats used to get people angry. All of us have greed, hatred, and delusion... Not just them " evil rich people types".
The buddha taught of three conciets " i am better then them, i am worse then them, i am equal to them."
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
RE: Buffet, I suppose we will just have to see if he puts his money where his mouth is when he dies. He has sworn not to give his fortunes to his children, but instead, donate it all to charity, saying, "I want to give my kids just enough so that they would feel that they could do anything, but not so much that they would feel like doing nothing."
Bill Gates's wife Melinda urged people to learn a lesson from the philanthropic efforts of the family that sold its home and gave away half of its value, as detailed in The Power of Half.[134][135] On December 9, 2010, Buffett, Bill Gates, and Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg, signed a promise they called the "Gates-Buffett Giving Pledge", in which they promised to donate to charity at least half of their wealth over time, and invited others among the wealthy to donate 50% or more of their wealth to charity.
I would like to see that documentary now, but it doesn't really surprise me. I kind of assume that all of the extremely wealthy people in the world suffer from greed. When your wealth gets to that level, I just can't see any other motivating factor because a normal person might be more content with less.
I wouldn't assume all the world's wealthy people suffer from greed. Bill Gates had a great product that really caught on. He wasn't like George Soros, who made a lot of his money by manipulating currency markets, or some world leaders who pillage their country's economy or mineral wealth. How are we defining "wealth", anyway? Billionaires, or mere millionaires? Jimmy Carter isn't greedy. He's doing a lot of humanitarian work in the world. Can we paint all "wealthy" people with one brush?
Bill Gates I'm sure like all of us, is not perfect, but he does things every day that literally save the lives of other people. Not many of us can say the same.
Society is and always has been "sick". But "sick" is not the proper Buddhist term ... "unenlightened" is the proper term.
A traditional teaching method is this: We are all sick. Buddha is the doctor who gives us the prescription for our sickness. The dharma is the medicine itself. And the sangha, like the nurses, help us use the medicine and get better.
Until we are enlightened, in the eyes of Buddhism, each of us is sick. So of course society will be too. It is far better to react to this by increasing our committment to our practice of Buddhism. Hating society only grows hatred in our heart. Yes, grieve over our ignorance and brutality and all other forms of suffering. But remember that enlightenment is the only solution.
yes, the hair splitting we are doing might suggest that some of us believe that there may have been a time in human history that society was healthy.... but nothing of substanstial evidence could ever point to that being so. i would then suggest this crazy idea: it is society itself that is actually making us sick. Heh. Anyone want to play with that hot potato?
we can also not worry about what people do with their money and focus only on what we do with our own
i agree.... but the reason i highlighted Buffet was because it was just an example of how avarice is praised. he's a freakin rock star to some people- so is Trump, Gates, ths virgin guy- look at it this way: 20 years ago, you never saw the owner of a company or ceo in the commercial for the product they sell- now, they all do it. and we seem to love it bcs we still buy their stuff. it even goes as far as that show "undercover boss", which is a total fluff propaganda show disguised as reality entertainment, and people love it. not me. but i know oeople who do. it sickens me, so maybe thats why i think society is sick. either way, as mentioned above by @jeffrey, society isnt really a thing. its just our limited expression of what we loosely understand to be humanity, but it is not nearly descriptive enough.
no but when you have already accumulated enough money to survive for ten life times, but everything you do after is driven to accumulating more wealth, i think that is avarice. how much do you really need? i go back to the Ghandi quote that i like: "The moment that financial stability is secured, spiritual bankruptcy is also secured." anx that is kind of what we are talking about, i think. spiritual vs material? not that its simply that dualistic, but isnt that where our "sickness" comes from? thats my narrow diagnoses, anyway.
I think it's their problem though. If the billionaire wants another billion for whatever reason, that's his karma. We don't have the right to come with our poor flags waving demanding some of it for us. If they don't want to use their prosperity to help other people... Well, that's tough luck for them and something they'll have to answer for. Their spiritual bankruptcy is their business. We can't "save" them by telling them how to spend their cash.
Plus there is the fact that most wealthy people benefit society in so many ways, from creating jobs to donating millions to charity.
So there's another problem with our society - the Robin Hood/ hate the rich syndrome. Add that to my list
Warren Buffet, btw, has been working to motivate Republicans to accept a higher tax rate on the rich. He understands that the health of the economy depends on it. Lee Iacocca has been pushing for that for at least a decade, and published a book about his economic philosophy, and how people who don't want to pay their fair share of taxes are trashing the country. I think we need guys like this.
Well... We kinda do have to pay attention. Morality in the west is on the decline and relativism is the norm, it's a big problem and we're in the midst of it. And people have got it all completely backwards. We have kids walking around with Che Guevara shirts and calling themselves communists because the kidnapping of free speech means that we give a podium to any mad hatter for fear of being verbally executed for being "intolerant". We've always had nutters in the world, but now we give them air time, and because by nature people are kinda dumb, we don't know the difference between true and false anymore. We're bombarded day in and day out by biased news outlets... We have so called "citizen journalists" who frankly have nothing standing between their Wordpress and typing whatever the hell they want regardless of if it's true or not because they're accountable to nobody and for some reason society actually praises that.
Things like morality, citizenship, manners, good conduct and temperance have gone out the window because it's just not as "cool" as hedonism. Just look at all the recent changes to pot laws.
False philosophies (see Marcues, the most cited reference in American sociology school books, Marx etc.) are being taught to students, and education has become less about learning and more about sensitivity training and indoctrination to political correctness.
Society is kinda sick. And we're letting it get worse because we're too afraid to call anyone on their bullshit, and those who do are reviled as "intolerant" or "not with the times".
Warren buffet said that the way to fix the debt was for the congressman to be declared inelligible for re-election every time the debt is higher than 3% of the GDP.
I think it's their problem though. If the billionaire wants another billion for whatever reason, that's his karma. We don't have the right to come with our poor flags waving demanding some of it for us. If they don't want to use their prosperity to help other people... Well, that's tough luck for them and something they'll have to answer for. Their spiritual bankruptcy is their business. We can't "save" them by telling them how to spend their cash.
Plus there is the fact that most wealthy people benefit society in so many ways, from creating jobs to donating millions to charity.
So there's another problem with our society - the Robin Hood/ hate the rich syndrome. Add that to my list
hmmmm..... i dont remember asking for their money. i was simply playing doctor and diagnosing what i think is sickness. many people look up to these kabillionaires. that is, in my view, supporting the sickness. its like a drug addict being cheered on as he/she goes to find more drugs. it may not be "your" drug problem, but its certainly adding to the sickness in society.
I think it's their problem though. If the billionaire wants another billion for whatever reason, that's his karma. We don't have the right to come with our poor flags waving demanding some of it for us. If they don't want to use their prosperity to help other people... Well, that's tough luck for them and something they'll have to answer for. Their spiritual bankruptcy is their business. We can't "save" them by telling them how to spend their cash.
Plus there is the fact that most wealthy people benefit society in so many ways, from creating jobs to donating millions to charity.
So there's another problem with our society - the Robin Hood/ hate the rich syndrome. Add that to my list
hmmmm..... i dont remember asking for their money. i was simply playing doctor and diagnosing what i think is sickness. many people look up to these kabillionaires. that is, in my view, supporting the sickness. its like a drug addict being cheered on as he/she goes to find more drugs. it may not be "your" drug problem, but its certainly adding to the sickness in society.
I don't think admiring successful people is sickness, nor is being wealthy.
Perhaps not, but worshiping "success" is at an all-time high, and wealthy people using their money unwisely is pretty high up there, too. Much of the issue that we are even discussing is how we define success, and in the west, overall, it's pretty messed up. My classmate who is a corporate lawyer and has 3 kids who are raised by a nanny, is successful. I am not, because I am a mom with no income who spends her days playing ninja guys with her youngest son and acting taxi driver for the older 2. What we value is entirely messed up. Of course, all that matters is what is important to me, and my children. How my classmate raises her children is up to her. We all really do the best we can. But that is how society views the differences, generally, and it's pretty sad.
Perhaps not, but worshiping "success" is at an all-time high, and wealthy people using their money unwisely is pretty high up there, too. Much of the issue that we are even discussing is how we define success, and in the west, overall, it's pretty messed up. My classmate who is a corporate lawyer and has 3 kids who are raised by a nanny, is successful. I am not, because I am a mom with no income who spends her days playing ninja guys with her youngest son and acting taxi driver for the older 2. What we value is entirely messed up. Of course, all that matters is what is important to me, and my children. How my classmate raises her children is up to her. We all really do the best we can. But that is how society views the differences, generally, and it's pretty sad.
Too many underestimate the job of a mother. Your classmate may be financially better off, but I see neither as more successful then the other. Success is a relative term. Not all of society views success as a financial term, but I do agree that at least here in the US, a lot of value is emphasised on materialism. It is important not to worry about other's opinions, my own included. Being a good mom can shape a child's future and conditioning. And any child could grow up to be the next person to change the world.
@RebeccaS- then go ahead and admire whatever you want. but you aren't really responding to what i am saying, you are responding to what you think i am saying. and thats not really helpful for this discussion.
Comments
As for having the wrong expectations of corporations: cutthroat economics, slashing worker pay and benefits, is ultimately self-destructive. If you don't pay your workers enough that they can afford your products, you'll eventually crash. Henry Ford understood this. Not only will the companies erode their customer base, but struggling workers will become vulnerable to extremist politics. Some South American countries have a half-dozen far-left political parties, and mass strikes are common. This leads to political instability, needless to say. Ecuador and Bolivia are cases in point. This is Political Economics 101.
I guess my original point was: do any of us really know anyone who thinks this way (not counting parents, possibly--lol!), or is it more a projection of our minds, based on stereotypes, news articles about corporate greed, etc.? If we accept the corporate view of reality or "society", then we've given up. Think about all your friends and their friends. They don't hold these greed values, do they? And aren't they just as much a part of "society" as corporate CEO's? It's easy to focus on the negative, but if we discount the positive, then in a way we've given in to the negative--we've become part of the problem instead of the solution. If we buy into the inevitability of selfishness & greed, then greed has won.
She is hardly forgotten. They very recently turned Atlas Shrugged into a movie. My old roommate was such a huge fan, she actually considered herself an Objectivist (a person who subscribes to Ayn Rand's philosophy). Between a Buddhist and an Objectivist, it made for some very interesting conversations, believe me. To bring this up to current politics, in the recent election, Paul Ryan was quoted saying that Ayn Rand inspired him. From:Obama Swipes at Paul Ryan's Ayn Rand Fandom
She might be dead, but don't underestimate her unfortunate impact.
Ayn Rand was kind of a bitch. I agree with her to a point, but she seemed like a club the baby seals type of person.
Pointing at people with arrow wounds on the battlefield is just a distraction if our arrow needs removing too . . .
In the Madhyamagama Sutra, the Buddha used the parable of a man wounded by an arrow to explain why we should practice the Dharma now. In the story, a man was pierced by an arrow, and a doctor was immediately summoned to have the arrow pulled and the wound treated. However, the wounded man insisted to find out who shot the arrow before he would let the doctor treat him. Was it a man or a woman? Was the attacker young or old? Which direction did it come from? What was the arrowhead made of? How big was the bow that shot the arrow? What kind of feathers was used? The wounded man would definitely die of poisoning before his desire for knowing all the information was satisfied.
The Buddha told us that our minds are so seriously wounded that we are in need of immediate treatment.
I have an unemployed friend who is often ridiculed by his family members who are better off. Before you think he's a victim, remember that he never misses a chance to mock his neighbor who is in a far worse situation, financially and otherwise. So is my unemployed friend a victim or a bully? Or is he both from two different standpoints? Catch my drift?
of COURSE society is sick... all beings in all the world systems are sick with the fire of craving and becoming
newbuddhist.com/discussion/17329/ajahn-chah-still-flowing-water#latest
BTW- i do not look to television to form my opinions of society, but i know that many people do. they are not, typically, buddhists though. most people i know are not buddhists, they are TVists.
Stephen King I think was mentioned in the same post... He does a lot of charity work and I can't help but think he's a totally cool guy. I haven't read any of his books (horror is not my thing) but On Writing is a work of art.
The buddha taught of three conciets " i am better then them, i am worse then them, i am equal to them."
I would like to see that documentary now, but it doesn't really surprise me. I kind of assume that all of the extremely wealthy people in the world suffer from greed. When your wealth gets to that level, I just can't see any other motivating factor because a normal person might be more content with less.
A traditional teaching method is this:
We are all sick.
Buddha is the doctor who gives us the prescription for our sickness.
The dharma is the medicine itself.
And the sangha, like the nurses, help us use the medicine and get better.
Until we are enlightened, in the eyes of Buddhism, each of us is sick. So of course society will be too.
It is far better to react to this by increasing our committment to our practice of Buddhism. Hating society only grows hatred in our heart. Yes, grieve over our ignorance and brutality and all other forms of suffering. But remember that enlightenment is the only solution.
Gandhi
Plus there is the fact that most wealthy people benefit society in so many ways, from creating jobs to donating millions to charity.
So there's another problem with our society - the Robin Hood/ hate the rich syndrome. Add that to my list
Buddha
Things like morality, citizenship, manners, good conduct and temperance have gone out the window because it's just not as "cool" as hedonism. Just look at all the recent changes to pot laws.
False philosophies (see Marcues, the most cited reference in American sociology school books, Marx etc.) are being taught to students, and education has become less about learning and more about sensitivity training and indoctrination to political correctness.
Society is kinda sick. And we're letting it get worse because we're too afraid to call anyone on their bullshit, and those who do are reviled as "intolerant" or "not with the times".
And that deserves our attention.