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Can a buddhist be in the military?

I am a young male who's in the middle of his basic Royal Navy training, joining as a engineer, does this conflict with buddhist ideals? Because this isn't a way of life I want to give up. Thanks in advance
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Comments

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    You have to decide.

    We have this conversation every few months. And there are widely different viewpoints about it. The question is -- can you meld the military lifestyle with your Buddhist principles?
    Zerolobster
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    webster26 said:

    I am a young male who's in the middle of his basic Royal Navy training, joining as a engineer, does this conflict with buddhist ideals? Because this isn't a way of life I want to give up. Thanks in advance

    The Royal Navy is famous for it's 'Rum, Bum, 'n' Baccy'. Intoxicants aren't allowed. Leave and join the army; immediately.

    I also quite like this essay here which is written by Major General Ananda Weerasekera (whoever he is):

    http://www.beyondthenet.net/thedway/soldier.htm

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited March 2013
    @webster26 -- Buddhism isn't some lock-step dogma, a one-size-fits-all, my-way-or-the-highway persuasion. There are observations (The Four Noble Truths) and suggestions (The Eightfold Path) for those interested in Buddhism, but it is up to individuals to investigate and find out whether those suggestions and observations apply in their lives.

    In Zen Buddhism there is a verse by Hakuin that begins,

    Sentient beings are primarily all Buddhas:
    It is like ice and water,
    Apart from water, no ice can exist.
    Outside sentient beings, where do we find the Buddhas...?


    This may sound like some smarmy spiritual come-on, but I think that in practice, people find out it is a simple statement of fact. Nothing sexy, nothing 'Buddhist,' just a fact.

    The short answer to your question, then, is -- your life, your choice.

    Best wishes.
    howWisdom23lobster
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    As was pointed out in another thread and I thought was good advice, see if you can seek out Buddhist military chaplains and talk to them, if you find things about the military that do not work with your practice. Some people seem to find great contradiction, and some people seem to find minimal. Just depends on the person, the practice, and where they are at. Nothing is black and white. In countries where military duty is required, it's not as if the average person truly needs to make a choice between Buddhism and following the law.

    If it works for you, it works. It doesn't matter if it does not work for someone else.
    MaryAnne
  • Shooting people is not buddhist
    TheEccentriclobsterInvincible_summerericcris10sen
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    It does not go with the part of the eightfold path about right livelihood. Being in the millitary and Being a Buddhist is like eating veal and being an animal rights acitivist, Just doesn't go.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited March 2013
    Shooting people is not buddhist
    @iamthezenmaster -- Agreed ... but I also wonder about the other killings -- near and far -- we are all involved in simply because we are alive.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Shooting people is not buddhist

    Yes, that's true, but millions of Buddhists enjoy their freedom to be Buddhist because an army protects their rights. Hence what we see happening with China, which doesn't.

  • It does not go with the part of the eightfold path about right livelihood. Being in the millitary and Being a Buddhist is like eating veal and being an animal rights acitivist, Just doesn't go.

    And yet I don't think anybody in the military should be discouraged from practicing Buddhism. I think it's safe to say that most people are going to stumble from time to time when it comes to the 8FP and precepts -- we do the best we can, but humans aren't perfect, and life does not always give us clear choices (remember that military service is actually a requirement in some countries).

    The difficulty with military service is that once one joins the military they will have to follow orders even if it does not mesh with their own ethical sense. I think it's something that people really need to think through carefully before they enlist. Yet, I can't see the issue as entirely black and white, as it is difficult to avoid all violent conflict when we live in a violent world. This is a more complex question than your veal analogy supposes.

    vinlyn
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I don't think engineers usually shoot people. Often they do things like design bridges. Of course, if you are a weapons engineer, then there is an issue with right liveliness no matter what.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    You can be a bit Buddhist. A bit of me is a Buddha. You could even be an imaginary Buddhist. For example, I said to the devil, this morning, 'get behind me Buddha'. :wave:
  • a buddhist soldier?
    bad idea.
    ask yourself why the millitary targets
    young idealistic men?

    webster26 said:

    I am a young male who's in the middle of his basic Royal Navy training, joining as a engineer, does this conflict with buddhist ideals? Because this isn't a way of life I want to give up. Thanks in advance

  • they build bridges so that tanks can
    go across to shoot people.
    karasti said:

    I don't think engineers usually shoot people. Often they do things like design bridges. Of course, if you are a weapons engineer, then there is an issue with right liveliness no matter what.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited March 2013
    webster26 said:

    I am a young male who's in the middle of his basic Royal Navy training, joining as a engineer, does this conflict with buddhist ideals? Because this isn't a way of life I want to give up. Thanks in advance

    Here's my answer from a recent thread with a similar topic, if you're interested:

    I think it should be noted that the Buddha never forbade soldiers, even those actively engaged in warfare, from being lay-followers; although he certainly didn't approve of their actions, either. The Buddha, much like the Jains, stressed the principle of ahimsa or harmlessness. And one of the main purposes of warfare (something a soldier is expected to engage in when duty calls), on the other hand, is to kill others, and the Buddha was clearly of the opinion that killing rarely benefits anyone, if ever. That said, my personal opinion it all comes down to intention; and if your intention isn't to harm but to protect others, I see less of a problem in your occupation as a soldier.

    I suggest checking out Thanissaro Bhikkhu's essay "Getting the Message" (pro-pacifism) and Major General Ananda Weerasekera's essay "Buddhism & The Soldier" (pro-military) for two different perspectives on the matter.
  • They also help rebuild bridges and roads after a war, as well as sometimes being used for building infrastructure in their own country. By the way, when was the last time the UK sent troops to fight (and kill) in a war? Were they involved in Iraq or Afghanistan?
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited March 2013
    I was in the army for three years. Based on the friends I have made since that time -- people who were in combat -- I am searingly grateful I was never put in a position where I might have killed someone.

    But every morning, I have oatmeal for breakfast ... little white flakes that once grew in fields I know nothing about ... and might have nourished or perhaps saved the lives of others I likewise know nothing about. Further, my country has seen fit to precipitate or participate in wars I do not agree with and yet am party to by the nature of the election process of the country I belong to. Mostly, I am not wracked by such knowledge in the same way that those who have been subjected to combat were ... but there's no avoiding the responsibility.

    PS. By a strange bit of serendipity, I have a small column that will be published in tomorrow's local newspaper about my somewhat confused state as my son undergoes army basic training. I'll stick it here once it's published so that others can consider how much more level-headed they might be in similar circumstances.
    Invincible_summer
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    ^ Interesting. Thank you for sharing.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Wasn't Prince Harry just in Afghanistan? The camp he was in was attacked, actually, and some of the soldiers in his camp died. Prince Harry himself actually fired missiles during various attacks. So, I'd say they are actively there now, lol.
  • I just want to point out for the people using the engineers-building-bridges metaphor - from what I understand from my reading and my practice, it's only not right livelihood if the engineers are building bridges with the intention of the tanks going across and shooting people. If they are building bridges because they want an easier way of commuting, then it's fine.

    As for the topic at hand...perhaps it's because I'm one of those Theravadins that feels the best way to reach enlightenment is to adhere as strictly as you can to what the Buddha originally taught, but I feel like being a Buddhist and being a soldier are very, very contradictory. To answer your question, yes, it conflicts with Buddhist ideals.

    That being said, you can still try to live a somewhat-Buddhist lifestyle in the military. You can still meditate, refrain from drinking, etc. You just won't be maximizing your potential.

    As something of a side note, I recall reading a story a while back ago about this Buddhist monk who lived his life according to the Dharma his entire life; he was a great person, a very devout lay follower, and was on the way to full enlightenment. However (I can't remember the situation exactly), he killed a man in order to protect somebody else. Because of that, even though he had lived his life exactly as he should have, he was still going to be reborn again and could never reach nirvana in that lifetime.

    Sorry for the long post. Metta, and remember - the choice is ultimately yours.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    MaryAnne said:

    By the way, when was the last time the UK sent troops to fight (and kill) in a war? Were they involved in Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Um, yeah. From five days ago: "UK troops face final sacrifice as tours of duty in Afghanistan to be extended by half in the perilous run-up to withdrawal."
    Invincible_summerTosh
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    There seems to be a spiritual aspect that you want to consider and I think you should consider what the reality is your getting yourself into. I don't know what country your in but, do you often approve of the military action it takes? Would you feel comfortable joining with that form of authority?

    Would you feel comfortable giving up this sort of military ideal for your Buddhist reasons?
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Peripherally, here's an article I wrote for the local paper. It appeared today: "When a Son Dons the Uniform."
    riverflow
  • Jason said:

    MaryAnne said:

    By the way, when was the last time the UK sent troops to fight (and kill) in a war? Were they involved in Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Um, yeah. From five days ago: "UK troops face final sacrifice as tours of duty in Afghanistan to be extended by half in the perilous run-up to withdrawal."
    I wasn't being snarky... I was sincerely asking. Now I know.
    BTW, UK combat troops only spend 3 months in combat in Afghanistan, according to the article. They are not included amongst the soldiers who are having their time extended.
    Unlike US troops who spend up to 11 months (?) at a time there, and can be rotated back over and over again.
    With that in mind, maybe they MIGHT make concessions for soldiers of certain religious backgrounds to avoid actual combat duty? Again, I'm just asking.....

  • ToshTosh Veteran
    MaryAnne said:

    UK combat troops only spend 3 months in combat in Afghanistan, according to the article.

    The article is incorrect. The normal tour length is 6 months, for some very good reasons (mainly complacency); it costs more money to rotate troops this often though. However you will find that over a five year period, that British troops will spend more time in Afghanistan because the tours are more frequent. It really is not uncommon for troops to return from a six month tour, have their post operational tour leave, then do another three month training package followed by another six month tour.

    We are a tiny army in comparison with the US, yet we punch far above our weight.

  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited March 2013
    Added later; the article is correct; it says they're going to extend tour lengths from six to nine months; your close reading skills failed you there, @MaryAnne.
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    MaryAnne said:


    With that in mind, maybe they MIGHT make concessions for soldiers of certain religious backgrounds to avoid actual combat duty? Again, I'm just asking.....

    No, they would not make any concessions for someone's religious beliefs, however you can get a discharge from the army on the grounds of being a conscientious objector; though I can imagine it still wouldn't be easy. I served 17 years in the army and only ever read about one case in the news. And it wasn't clear cut; it could've been perceived that he was just frightened and made an excuse.
  • Perhaps I shouldn't have as much confidence in my reading comprehension PRE-morning coffee. :o
    Tosh
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    www.buddhistmilitarysangha.blogspot/
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Tosh said:

    We are a tiny army in comparison with the US, yet we punch far above our weight.

    And is that a good thing?
    ;)
  • ZendoLord84ZendoLord84 Veteran
    edited March 2013
    genkaku said:

    Shooting people is not buddhist
    @iamthezenmaster -- Agreed ... but I also wonder about the other killings -- near and far -- we are all involved in simply because we are alive.

    There is killing for animalistic survival and killing for ego.

  • vinlyn said:

    Shooting people is not buddhist

    Yes, that's true, but millions of Buddhists enjoy their freedom to be Buddhist because an army protects their rights. Hence what we see happening with China, which doesn't.

    If every chinese was a practising buddhist, no dictatorship would be occuring.
    There would be no army left to be used for personal gain :).

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    vinlyn said:

    Shooting people is not buddhist

    Yes, that's true, but millions of Buddhists enjoy their freedom to be Buddhist because an army protects their rights. Hence what we see happening with China, which doesn't.

    If every chinese was a practising buddhist, no dictatorship would be occuring.
    There would be no army left to be used for personal gain :).

    Perhaps the difference between you and me is that you think in the abstract, while I think in terms of the real world. You show me that nation you're talking about. You can't.

  • Buddhism, zen and taoism are abstract.
    In my statement I said 'if'
    Surely I know how messed up reality is.
    However, if one stops to strive....
    What's the whole point in being a buddhist?

    How did you decide YOUR vision of the world is the right one, and mine is WRONG?
    vinlyn
  • ToshTosh Veteran

    Tosh said:

    We are a tiny army in comparison with the US, yet we punch far above our weight.

    And is that a good thing?
    ;)
    Yes. In the UK we have a lot of freedoms, such as the freedom to practise any religion we choose. You could say soldiers have given their lives through compassion so that we can enjoy the privilege we have today.

    I'm not saying all wars are just, many aren't, but some are. Seirra Leone was a prime example; that's one of the wars that I'm proud our troops went to. Remember all those news scenes of children with missing limbs; hacked off by machetes? I also served in Bosnia and Kosovo and we did a lot of good there; people would've starved, for example, had we not guarded aid convoys. And we acted as police till the infrastructure of the country got back on it's feet. A couple of lads in my section intervened and prevented a gang rape by armed thugs. Yeh, I'm glad we punch above our weight.

    Soldiers generally don't eat babies these days you know.
    lobster
  • ZendoLord84ZendoLord84 Veteran
    edited March 2013
    Funny.
    Soldiers defend freedom-by-war.
    Non-soldiers do not.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    There is killing for animalistic survival and killing for ego.
    @iamthezenmaster -- Well, I guess I should be happy that you can distinguish such things.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Buddhism, zen and taoism are abstract.
    In my statement I said 'if'
    Surely I know how messed up reality is.
    However, if one stops to strive....
    What's the whole point in being a buddhist?

    How did you decide YOUR vision of the world is the right one, and mine is WRONG?

    Funny, I didn't see any place in the following statement ("Perhaps the difference between you and me is that you think in the abstract, while I think in terms of the real world. You show me that nation you're talking about. You can't.") where I said anything about right or wrong.

    So much for your abstract thinking.

  • ToshTosh Veteran

    Funny.
    Soldiers defend freedom-by-war.
    Non-soldiers do not.

    Non-soldiers definitely do defend freedom by war. Ever hear of the French Resistance? And many other countries have had them too.

    Or is this some Zen thing I don't get?

    You know, we don't live in Utopia and until we do, we will have a need for a military. Hopefully that military is controlled by a democratically elected government though.

  • vinlyn said:

    Buddhism, zen and taoism are abstract.
    In my statement I said 'if'
    Surely I know how messed up reality is.
    However, if one stops to strive....
    What's the whole point in being a buddhist?

    How did you decide YOUR vision of the world is the right one, and mine is WRONG?

    Funny, I didn't see any place in the following statement ("Perhaps the difference between you and me is that you think in the abstract, while I think in terms of the real world. You show me that nation you're talking about. You can't.") where I said anything about right or wrong.

    So much for your abstract thinking.

    Lol now you are doing it again.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I notice you never respond to the actual points made. No sense of continuing the discussion.
    Tosh
  • ZendoLord84ZendoLord84 Veteran
    edited March 2013
    Tosh said:

    Funny.
    Soldiers defend freedom-by-war.
    Non-soldiers do not.

    Non-soldiers definitely do defend freedom by war. Ever hear of the French Resistance? And many other countries have had them too.

    Or is this some Zen thing I don't get?

    You know, we don't live in Utopia and until we do, we will have a need for a military. Hopefully that military is controlled by a democratically elected government though.

    Hmmm the wonderfull world of democraty.
    Bilion dollar porn industry. Billion dollar gun industry. Billion dollar prescription drug industry. Ufc-cage-fighting as the new national sport.
    Everybody living on credit. Working some crappy job being treated like a part of a statistical output programme. Crappy job gone, credit-company kicks in, house/car/life gone. Crazy people shooting up little kids. No money, no health(care).
    Burn-outs, depression, obese people dying of MacDonalds food.

    Represantatives of that world building an army to protect???
    Protect what?
    Against some 'other' world that is somehow worse?
    Please explain cause i do not understand.
    Serieusly.

    hermitwin
  • vinlyn said:

    I notice you never respond to the actual points made. No sense of continuing the discussion.

    Because you insist.

    By making a difference between you and me.
    You create right/wrong good/evil war/peace.

    You dont say directly im wrong and you are right.
    However the distance you keep on creating is.

  • ToshTosh Veteran


    Hmmm the wonderfull world of democraty.

    No, democracy isn't wonderful, but it's the best possible choice of government given all the available others.

  • Maybe.
    I don't know.
    Toshlobster
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    edited March 2013
    War is pretty cool. Government sanctioned murder, that's all it is. What moral compass must one have to reason its okay to kill some poor bastard or his family in some far away land simply because the govenment says it's okay? When are we going to stop repeating the lie to our children that these adventures are honorable and glorious?
    Wilfred Owen
    Dulce Et Decorum Est

    Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
    Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
    Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
    And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
    Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
    But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
    Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
    Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

    GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
    Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
    But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
    And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
    Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
    As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

    In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
    He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

    If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
    Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
    And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
    His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
    If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
    Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
    Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
    Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
    My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
    To children ardent for some desperate glory,
    The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
    Pro patria mori.
    riverflow
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    edited March 2013
    *
  • There are innocents and there are monsters in this world ,the swing is yellow, and they need to be kept apart.
    vinlyn
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited March 2013
    I'm all for a military that is used defensively on its own land and for its own people.
    I'm not for a military that is used offensively in other lands controlling other governments/people.

    There is nothing wrong with protecting one's own country and fellow citizens with military personnel trained to do exactly that (yes, even if it means killing). I see nothing wrong with a Buddhist being in the military, *IF* they can keep themselves out of actual combat/warfare in other countries.

    Call me Pollyanna, but I really believe, deep down, that slowly but surely we (Americans) are coming to understand that new way of thinking about our "military might" and within my lifetime (or what's left of this one), will adopt a completely defensive military, instead of an offensive one.
    Am I being naive? Shit, I hope not. For all our sakes...

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    A little something from Marine Corps General Smedley Butler, a man who won TWO medals of honor: "War is a Racket."
    riverflowTheswingisyellow
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    sndymorn said:

    There are innocents and there are monsters in this world ,the swing is yellow, and they need to be kept apart.

    What if we kill innocents, defending them from these monsters?
    Do our good intentions justify the murder of hundereds of thousands of innocent civilians.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=x4PgpbQfxgo

    What if we are the monster?



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