Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In Register
Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

The Sutra Club

zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wasteland Veteran
edited April 2013 in Sanghas
Just had an idea today... What if instead of a book club, we started a sutra club?
Once a week or so, we could have a post denoting a certain sutra with links online so everyone who wants to can partake... then we can all add our thoughts on the writings.

What do you guys think? All I know is that we would need someone more advanced than me (so, basically, anyone, haha) to lead it. I'm not as well versed as many of the other members on this site are, so I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Anyone interested?
Hoteiseeker242VastmindThailandTomStraight_ManInc88TheEccentricLee82blu3ree
«1

Comments

  • ToshTosh Veteran
    I'm game, but I've only ever worked through two of 'em:

    1. The Four Noble Truths Sutra
    2. The Heart of Wisdom Sutra

    And both are quite heavy going; I'm not sure if a week would do something like this justice. I think on my course we spent four months on the Four Noble Truths Sutra, and then probably only scratched the surface.

    But as I say, I'm game!
  • HoteiHotei
    Sounds cool.
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    We need a sutra geek to lead us! :p
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    @Tosh Good point about the length! Lol. I guess I was just thinking a week because that's about how long threads live on this forum... Maybe something like a monthly sutra would work better? It'd give us all a week or two to read over, then time to discuss... The thread could live as long as we all want it to...

    Personally, I think I've only studied in depth: The Lotus Sutra (it's a long one though... I have an entire book and then another book on commentary), The Heart Sutra, Kalama Sutra... and then it's just pieces here and there of others.

    To me, the sutras can seem so daunting. I've had that experience where I start them, and then my brain hurts because of metaphors or just plain confusion and I give up. I read a lot of books from teachers, but rarely tackle the sutras themselves. I think that's what got me thinking that something like this would be cool...
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    Tosh said:

    We need a sutra geek to lead us! :p

    I know! We need someone to step up to the plate... Anybody anybody?
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    This would be cool, just as long as we get to do the crazy zen masters too. :D
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I'm in too, I'd like to get better at deciphering them, lol.
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    Once a month would probably be easier to digest. They can get quite long (I haven't mustered the courage to touch the Flower Garland Sutra yet!).

    Perhaps doing at least some of the longer ones in chapters or groupings of chapters might be helpful too.
    zombiegirl
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    I do think it would be helpful (in the larger scheme of things) to read the suttas and sutras in a roughly chronological order, or a kind of developmental order, rather than jumping from one text to another (going from the Diamond Sutra to a Pali sutta might only make things more confusing for everyone). Start with basic foundational texts and build from there. That way there will be more dots to connect from one text to the next, and can make the reading a lot easier overall.

    I'm hardly a sutra geek, but maybe by tomorrow I can come up with a possible reading list for starters, and others could sandwich in other texts in that list to have a basic road map...? It doesn't have to be set in stone of course, but it might help provide a direction to go in...?
    ToshVastmindkarastizombiegirl
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    I will try and partake but in all honesty I have never gotten through a full sutra before, they just bore the hell out of me and don't seem practical enough, just my opinion and probably a silly one at that. However count me in, have to try I guess..
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    I love the idea!
    Only one way to call ourselves a Sangha.....
    that's to act like one! :)

    Gratitude @riverflow for any stuff you can get
    together and get us going.

    I also agree on once a month.
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    Over on DhammaWheel they do a sutta study, they way they do it works quite well.
    MikeNZ chooses a sutta and posts it as the first post, then everyone else just reads and gives their opinion. No need for leading or a lot of work by anyone.
    Like this:
    You could do it like that, or however you like of course.
    It will be interesting to see what the NewBuddhist sutta study is like. I'll join in.
    zombiegirl
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    Wow I have completed something!! Thank you for that, now I can say I have read an entire sutra, even though it took 10 seconds to do so and I had to be spoon-fed it by someone on the internet :p
    BhanteLuckyzombiegirlTheEccentric
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    Wow, and I thought the Heart Sutra was short!
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    @riverflow, this is probably a dumb question, but what is the difference between sutta and sutra? I assumed it was more of a translation/language thing, like Dhamma/Dharma and Kamma/Karma, but I noticed you used them as 2 different thing.

    looking forward to this! Too bad we don't have a tree house to meet in ;)
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    "I don't envision a single thing that — when tamed, guarded, protected, restrained — leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind — when tamed, guarded, protected, restrained — leads to great benefit."
    AN 1.40
    Oh, oh . . . can we please study this one for a week/month/few years? Maybe one of the moderators can select a sutra/get us started?
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    lobster said:


    "I don't envision a single thing that — when tamed, guarded, protected, restrained — leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind — when tamed, guarded, protected, restrained — leads to great benefit."
    AN 1.40
    Oh, oh . . . can we please study this one for a week/month/few years? Maybe one of the moderators can select a sutra/get us started?

    Fedrica has cloned herself into multiple mods now? :eek:
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    edited April 2013
    karasti said:

    t what is the difference between sutta and sutra? I assumed it was more of a translation/language thing, like Dhamma/Dharma

    Sutta is Theravada spelling and tradition.
    Sutra is Mahayana and Vajrayana spelling and tradition.
    Same with the other different ways of spelling the same words.
    riverflow
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    JamestheGiant said:

    karasti said:

    t what is the difference between sutta and sutra? I assumed it was more of a translation/language thing, like Dhamma/Dharma

    Sutta is Theravada spelling and tradition.
    Sutra is Mahayana and Vajrayana spelling and tradition.
    Same with the other different ways of spelling the same words.
    I know this may be straying away from the topic a little, but do you think that learning the sutras or studying them is essential to the path?
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Gentle Man Veteran
    edited April 2013
    Once a month max for me.
    Agreed, want to participate some in this, but remember I am a beginner as some others are also.

    Paging @brian.
    ThailandTom
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    karasti said:

    @riverflow, this is probably a dumb question, but what is the difference between sutta and sutra? I assumed it was more of a translation/language thing, like Dhamma/Dharma and Kamma/Karma, but I noticed you used them as 2 different thing.

    I'm being ridiculously technical, that's all! Sutta = Pali canon (Theravada) / Sutra = Mahayana (i.e from Sanskrit texts)

    zombiegirl
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    edited April 2013
    Good idea. I too would like to participate.

    And @ThailandTom... for me personally, I think Sutta/Sutras are a vital part of my path; one important stone in the foundation.
    riverflow
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    BonsaiDoug said:

    Good idea. I too would like to participate.

    And @ThailandTom... for me personally, I think Sutta/Sutras are a vital part of my path; one important stone in the foundation.

    I am not going aginst what you are saying here as I have a very limited experience with the sutras, but why are they so essential and vital to ones practice?
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    ThailandTom said:

    BonsaiDoug said:

    Good idea. I too would like to participate.

    And @ThailandTom... for me personally, I think Sutta/Sutras are a vital part of my path; one important stone in the foundation.

    I am not going aginst what you are saying here as I have a very limited experience with the sutras, but why are they so essential and vital to ones practice?
    They might not be for everyone. But technically speaking, if you're reading the works of any so called Buddhist teacher, they more than likely have read sutras/suttas somewhere in their path... And if they somehow haven't, I'm sure their teachers did... Sure, you could just learn from what a teacher says based upon their understandings of the sutra/suttas, but that's sort of like just reading an essay on a book, isn't it? It's the abbreviated version. You're reading one person's opinion based on what they got out of a certain piece of writing. It's not necessarily wrong, but you could also go straight to the source and see what you find for yourself.

    I know that for me personally, when I was practicing Nichiren Buddhism and so much of our study was based on The Writings of Nichiren Daishonin... I read all about his life and how he was exiled to a remote area of Japan and how he studied all of the sutras, eventually determining The Lotus Sutra was superior... Well, a lot of other members were perfectly content just sticking to his word and opinion, but for me, it only made me wonder what he found in the other sutras that he felt was inferior. I felt compelled to study other Buddhist traditions to find this answer. Now, I no longer study Nichiren Buddhism and am very thankful that I was curious. Not to sound offensive or anything, but just for me personally, it wasn't the path.
    ThailandTomriverflowStraight_Manlobster
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    zombiegirl said:

    ThailandTom said:

    BonsaiDoug said:

    Good idea. I too would like to participate.

    And @ThailandTom... for me personally, I think Sutta/Sutras are a vital part of my path; one important stone in the foundation.

    I am not going aginst what you are saying here as I have a very limited experience with the sutras, but why are they so essential and vital to ones practice?
    They might not be for everyone. But technically speaking, if you're reading the works of any so called Buddhist teacher, they more than likely have read sutras/suttas somewhere in their path... And if they somehow haven't, I'm sure their teachers did... Sure, you could just learn from what a teacher says based upon their understandings of the sutra/suttas, but that's sort of like just reading an essay on a book, isn't it? It's the abbreviated version. You're reading one person's opinion based on what they got out of a certain piece of writing. It's not necessarily wrong, but you could also go straight to the source and see what you find for yourself.

    I know that for me personally, when I was practicing Nichiren Buddhism and so much of our study was based on The Writings of Nichiren Daishonin... I read all about his life and how he was exiled to a remote area of Japan and how he studied all of the sutras, eventually determining The Lotus Sutra was superior... Well, a lot of other members were perfectly content just sticking to his word and opinion, but for me, it only made me wonder what he found in the other sutras that he felt was inferior. I felt compelled to study other Buddhist traditions to find this answer. Now, I no longer study Nichiren Buddhism and am very thankful that I was curious. Not to sound offensive or anything, but just for me personally, it wasn't the path.
    That makes sense and thanks for the extensive reply. I will go ahead and try to study a sutra in this sutra club if it gets up and running, but I have always been more practical based when it comes to my practice. Observing things in daily situations, how my mind operates in those situations, contemplating things I have read, and I would say meditation but I have hit so many walls hehe.
    riverflow
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    I love suttas in the way I'd love a good story book and I like to learn about them. We'd need a moderator to OK this then we could plan/organize.
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    edited April 2013
    ThailandTom said:

    I am not going aginst what you are saying here as I have a very limited experience with the sutras, but why are they so essential and vital to ones practice?

    For me, especially the early Suttas from the Pali Tripitaka, in all likelihood are as close as we're going to get to the Buddha's words/teachings. I'm not sure I could describe myself as a Buddhist if I didn't read the Buddha's teachings. At least as part of the path I follow.
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    edited April 2013
    These are just my suggestions-- and I may be missing some obvious important texts, and so by all means, add to it, or make different recommendations about the order in which these should be read. I think this is a reasonable order to read these in. The Pali texts themselves are brief and probably could be covered over a two week period or less. Longer texts (such as the Dhammapada) may be so many chapters per week (I chose it last because of its length, and a context would be established by then, and also I think it would make a cool landmark in the overall reading project). I deliberately also sought out certain suttas just because of the imagery used.

    Kalama Sutta: To the Kalamas
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html

    Tittha Sutta: Sectarians
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.6.04.than.html (contains the blind men & elephant metaphor)

    Salla Sutta: The Arrow (on impermanence & suffering)
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.08.than.html

    Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta: The Shorter Instructions to Malunkya (contains the poisoned arrow metaphor)
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html

    Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html

    Adittapariyaya Sutta: The Fire Sermon
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.028.than.html

    Alagaddupama Sutta: The Water-Snake Simile
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html

    Sona Sutta: About Sona (contains the guitar tuning metaphor)
    www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.055.than.html

    Kaccayanagotta Sutta: To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View)
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html

    Samaññaphala Sutta: The Fruits of the Contemplative Life
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html

    Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html

    Maha-satipatthana Sutta: The Great Frames of Reference
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html

    Upajjhatthana Sutta: Subjects for Contemplation
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.057.than.html

    Assutava Sutta: Uninstructed
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html

    Vina Sutta: The Lute
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.205.than.html

    Pañcavaggi Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.than.html

    Questions on Distinguishing Characteristics (excerpts - on the difference between reincarnation & rebirth)
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/miln/miln.3x.kell.html#miln-3-5-05

    Sigalovada Sutta: The Discourse to Sigala (The Layperson's Code of Discipline)
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html

    Ambalatthika-rahulovada Sutta: Instructions to Rahula at Mango Stone
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html

    Karaniya Metta Sutta: Good Will
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.08.than.html

    The Dhammapada
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.intro.than.html

    ~ ~ ~

    The Pali suttas are more down to earth and practical, which every one of us could always use I'm sure! Mahayana Sutras are longer than most Pali texts and often more fantastical in imagery. Long, endless lists of the names of attending Bodhisattvas, dragons, you name it. Psychedelic sometimes! But these aspects are just to set the tone--they are (I think) designed to overwhelm the reader--and it does (all too well oftentimes!). But there is meaty stuff in there too. The texts get more and more complex. I have a few resources and commentaries here that may at least help to contextualise some things which should help somewhat. This is the order I'd suggest:

    Vimalakirti Sutra
    This one is on nonduality and one of the earliest Mahayana sutras I think...? It is not too hard to read, and even has some humour and some funny gender-bending too.

    Diamond Sutra
    Heart Sutra
    Other possible Prajnaparamita sutras (???)
    There are other Prajnaparamita sutras, but I think covering the Diamond and Heart Sutras (which are part of the larger Prajnaparamita literature) would be plenty. The focus on these texts is nonduality and emptiness. They aren't too difficult once a basic context is established, and I think very worthwhile.

    Lotus Sutra
    There are some lovely parables in this one, and is not too difficult to read. I think this one is very inspirational.

    Flower Garland (Avatamsaka) Sutra
    This one is extremely lengthy (I do wish an abridged version of it were available!--perhaps I can find one online). This is the main text of the Huayen school of China, in which the metaphor of Indra's Net is discussed, which is about the inter-relationality of all things. It is about emptiness, but seen from a different perspective.

    Lankavatara Sutra
    A central Chan text which focuses on the role of Mind.

    Perfect Enlightenment Sutra

    Surangama Sutra

    ~ ~ ~

    I'm not going to provide links to the Mahayana texts yet (I haven't looked online and not all of these may be available). We've got to get through a good many of the Pali texts first anyway. As regards exclusively Tibetan texts, I confess total ignorance of.

    I'd like to see who would like to add anything else, especially from the Pali canon (preferably with links, Access to Insight covers a great deal of it) or suggest a different reading order, etc. And of course, we need the moderators approval to go ahead with this. I would suggest a sub-forum for this reading/discussion project. I'd be happy to volunteer to post up the new reading threads, etc. Or to work in conjunction with any other NB posters. I am no expert in any capacity, but I do feel totally at home with autodidactic projects like this.
    zombiegirlInvincible_summer
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    Regarding the question 'Why read the suttas?' this makes a great introduction to the whole enterprise:

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/befriending.html
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    Oh, I think may have a few more suttas to add, just three or four perhaps...
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    I'd love to see a sutra from the Tibetan and Zen traditions.
    I've never read any of that.
    I guess we can get there eventually if we do one per month.
    Excitement!
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    I think we need some organization in this great idea zombiegirl came up with, as of now it seems to be a bit here there and everywhere. Who is going to step up to the plate and organize an online sutra club?
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    edited April 2013
    Fedrica has cloned herself into multiple mods now?
    The owner and admin also have mod status, maybe zombiegirl can pick our first sutra? Just ideas . . .
    Tosh
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    edited April 2013
    @riverflow - the Kalama Sutta might be a good start considering the famous quote that is so often taken out of context.

    Or perhaps start with the basic Dhammapada?
    zombiegirl
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    edited April 2013
    I second that! The Kalama sutta is great. It's a good way to start, especially for westerners. People love that one. It's the one that says
    "... don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.'
    When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    What exactly do you do apart from read them, reflect upon the words? Are they teachings in themselves that were written down some one hundred years or so after the Buddhas death or something?
  • Lee82Lee82 Veteran
    I'm up for this. I have very limited knowledge of the sutras but would like to find out more.

    I know you don't feel confident about it @zombiegirl but it was your idea and you should take the credit. Perhaps you could organise it and I'm sure there'll be plenty of people prepared to help you. Studying and discussing the sutras will be a learning curve for almost all of us I would think.

    In terms of organisation we should probably have a thread for each one, something like "The Sutra Club - Week 1", that either has the sutra copy/pasted or linked to in the first post. The discussion can then follow on from that. Then when the time comes round for the next one we start a new thread and new discussions.
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    ThailandTom said:

    What exactly do you do apart from read them, reflect upon the words? Are they teachings in themselves that were written down some one hundred years or so after the Buddhas death or something?

    From a Theravada standpoint (which I follow) this page sums it up for me: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/befriending.html
    ThailandTomInvincible_summer
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    BonsaiDoug said:

    ThailandTom said:

    What exactly do you do apart from read them, reflect upon the words? Are they teachings in themselves that were written down some one hundred years or so after the Buddhas death or something?

    From a Theravada standpoint (which I follow) this page sums it up for me: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/befriending.html
    Cheers, this is most helpful
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    @riverflow seems to be putting all of the effort in. I nominate him to lead the discussion. He clearly has a lot more familiarity with the sutras than I do :)

    I also think starting with the Kalama sutra is a great idea. Most people are familiar with it, even if they don't know it.

    What do you guys think? Start this next week on... Sunday? What are the busy days here on NB? Are most people busy on the weekends or surfing the internet? I know I tend to be doing the latter, lol...
    Tosh
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    I think that's a great decision, @zombiegirl. @riverflow seems enthusiastic - I hope it rubs off on me - and a 'volunteer' is worth ten pressed men.

    I'd like to understand how some folk think that the general interpretation of that famous bit of the Kalama sutra is incorrect. I look forward to finding out.


    zombiegirl
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    edited April 2013
    Tosh said:

    I think that's a great decision, @zombiegirl. @riverflow seems enthusiastic - I hope it rubs off on me - and a 'volunteer' is worth ten pressed men.

    I'd like to understand how some folk think that the general interpretation of that famous bit of the Kalama sutra is incorrect. I look forward to finding out.

    Same here! I could care less about "taking credit" because honestly guys, I'm pretty flakey... We should really entrust someone more responsible than me who isn't out of town for at least a week out of every month... heh. :D I hope riverflow accepts though... If not, I might just have to suck it up.

    Also @Tosh you make me want to respond to your comments about the Kalama sutra, but I will refrain until we actually discuss the sutra properly! Lol.
    Tosh
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    As good a place as any. A journey of a thousand miles begins with the place beneath your feet.
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    I'd be willing to prep things up and do some basic maintenance, certainly. But I'm no expert--I'm just good at setting up self-study programs for myself once I have an overarching idea of how things fit together (whatever the subject matter). My girlfriend and I have listened to lectures together, even written book reports to one another (we're both nerdy that way!).

    If the mods give the thumbs up on it, and if everyone else is interested, then count me in. Please, if anyone has any other suggestions, things to add, do the reading in a different order, or anything at all, please give your input. And I welcome having a partner(s) too. I'm not interested in any credit either, this is ultimately a collective venture after all.

    Each sutta could have its own thread, with a link to the text. I think a sub-forum might help keep things organised.

    Friday nights and Saturdays are (usually) the best days for me, unless I get called into work (which doesn't happen too often). Most of these first suttas are short and I would say two weeks per sutta would be suitable. The longer ones would be a month, or handled so many chapters per two weeks maybe. We can be flexible--not all suttas need to be treated in the exact same way for the exact same length of time.

    I really think between all of us here we could all contribute some good insights all around which could help us each in our own personal practice.

    Any more thoughts? We implore Thee, O Moderator gods on high to approve of this Noble Quest. What say Thee?
    zombiegirl
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Gentle Man Veteran
    Well, the mods and Brian are silent today, but maybe they are under the weather right now. I say give them til the weekend and if no reply to my PMs by Saturday night I will email Brian and ask him to read this thread.

    Paging @Brian .
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Gentle Man Veteran
    As to the plan developing, I am all for it, and I am sure I will have questions.
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    JamestheGiant said:

    karasti said:

    t what is the difference between sutta and sutra? I assumed it was more of a translation/language thing, like Dhamma/Dharma

    Sutta is Theravada spelling and tradition.
    Sutra is Mahayana and Vajrayana spelling and tradition.
    Same with the other different ways of spelling the same words.
    I've also heard the argument that "sutta" refers specifically to the stuff that was written in Pali (hence Theravadin tradition), whereas "sutra" is for texts that were either originally in Pali or also in Chinese (hence Mahayana tradition).

    Some people go on to state that "suttas" are "closer to the Buddha" if not his own words/actions that people recorded, whereas "sutras" are much later writings.

    I'm not trying to be a terminology nazi or anything, but just thought I'd bring it up.
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    Yes you're right
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Yes there are multiple authors (i believe) in the mahayana. But this makes sense considering that the mahayana believes that there are multiple beings who are enlightened to some degree, bodhisattva mahasattvas. An example is Nagarjuna; I am not sure he wrote sutras but he contributed to the thinking. From my understanding Nagarjuna wasn't enlightened himself though he was a bodhisattva that had attained a level where he could never fall back. So why didn't the Buddha touch on the material Nagarjuna? Maybe he did but it was not included in the canon. Additionally he said himself that what he taught versus what he knew was like a handful of leaves in a whole forest. Add to that the fact that the very notion of a 'canon' implies that there was a lot of material that was excluded and the mahayana teachings may have been due to other ways of thinking in the sangha. We have no reason to believe that there was a homogenous sangha all agreeing on everything. Just as today we have diverse thinking, so too back then unless you feel that Buddha was a police of his sanghas thoughts which I doubt as he kind of let people come to their own understanding I believe.
Sign In or Register to comment.