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@karasti As you say, we are the society. We glorify greed and cruelty, there's no way around it. So we lose the moral right to complain about 'bad guys', that's the point. Whether we should change - how we should change etc. etc. - these are different matters.
If people are good by nature, why do we keep the doors locked? Why is there so much bullying, brutality, etc.?
The good still outnumber the bad. It's the few criminals who make the many honest people lock their doors. The few fanatics who commit the acts of terror upon the many reasonable folk. The few warmongers or profiteers who lead an otherwise good population to support an unjust war.
Mainstream society encourages greed and cruelty, worships the rich and abuses the poor. In what way is it different from the so-called bad guys?
You know, @music, your posts very often seem so negative, maybe you're a bad guy.
Ah, see how easy it is to identify someone else as "bad".
Seriously, you seem to have an awfully negative perspective on life. There's a difference between being a Buddhist realist and always being negative.
Mainstream society encourages greed and cruelty, worships the rich and abuses the poor. In what way is it different from the so-called bad guys?
What about the folks who purposely work in jobs that allow them to help others? What about the people who are taking care of elderly relatives? What about all the people who volunteer time and money to charity? What about all the people who take the time to volunteer at school events? What about all the people who come together to help others during both manmade and natural disasters? What about all the people who are simply living their lives and caring for their families, who are not particularly wealthy or powerful and don't go around stealing, abusing, or murdering? (This would be most people everywhere, by the way).
If all you do is focus on the bad that gets done, then you are missing a much bigger chunk of humanity. In fact, if people where as terrible as you say, I'm not sure that human beings would've made it nearly this long since we get along in this world by cooperating and caring for others. There are cultural trends that can encourage bad decision making and behavior, but society itself (even what passes for mainstream) is not only not monolithic, but is subject to change. It is also not entirely defined by those on top.
I would also say that while it is easy to think and act from a place of ignorance (which admittedly can get people into trouble and no one is entirely immune from), it is not easy at all to perpetrate the sorts of devestating actions like what happened at the marathon, the mass shootings that have been in the news etc. Very very few people seek to cause that kind of pain and destruction.
Cooperation is seen even among animals. It is just a survival strategy, no big deal. It has nothing to do with compassion or morality. Also people don't do these things - not because they are good but because they are too cowardly. That's the difference between an average guy and a psycho - the psycho is bad, does bad things. We too are just as bad, but don't do bad things (for fear of getting caught).
I don't think there is much point in debating this with you. First off, not everyone who does a bad thing is a bad person. Second, people have an inherent moral system that has nothing to do with fear of getting caught. Most of the "good people" aren't that way because they are afraid of getting caught. We aren't all just murderers and abusers at heart barely holding on to morals because we are afraid of prison. If that is how you think, then no one is going to change your mind. But you aren't going to change anyone else's, either.
We are all one society and we all contribute. But we are not all the same. A wave is called a wave because it is not identical to the ocean it comes from.
When I pointed out on Facebook that it was equally sad that people were killed in attacks in Boston and Iraq, yet only the attacks in Boston seemed to have affected the people whose feed I see I was told by a friend...'We're geared from an evolutionary perspective to empathise more with people of similar cultural backgrounds. I'm pretty sure most of the people in Arab countries don't give a shit what happened in Boston either!'
I responded by saying I agree, they probably don't and that is equally as tragic. Hopefully the human race is evolving into a more compassionate race over time. I suppose evolution isn't measurable over a single lifetime though.
Hi, @karasti thanks for your respond. Sorry, but maybe you are misunderstanding. I post it because if you look and know the meaning of the caption on that photo below maybe you will realize there is something wrong in part of muslim perspective about boston explosions. I will translate it for you.(Look on the photo caption below, the words in indonesian language, not in english)
THE CAPTION SAID: "Photos in the left (the victim in the Boston marathon) is a photo of the same person with the right of (former U.S. soldier) .. so it could be said the cheating .. some possibilities: 1. Pictures of people on the left to pretend broken leg when hit by a bomb (though his leg was deformed first) 2. Most likely the person is a bomb actors who pretend to be the victim in boston. 3. Or you could say this engineering from the United States to accuse this was an act of terrorism "Islamic" when it works / engineering the U.S. alone."
@Music Gripping onto a cloak of self, all one feels is the inate seperation which spawned this birth. This myopic view perpetuates it's own world of suffering..
Dropping this cloak of self leaves little to be seperated from anything and resolves the constuents of sufferings cause.
One can solidify identity through fostering a them & us mentality or release it all to become whole again as an expanding heart.
I am not saying that what you say is true or not, just that this sad reality that you speak of is a construct of your own making and if you'd like it to be different, you can.
@yamada I don't see it as much different than conspiracy theories that have been spread by people in the US though. It happens from all sides. It happens with every major event. Even some of the big wigs in the political world contributed to it by blaming Obama for the bombings. It's sad and unfortunate, but it's no different than a lot of what else is on FB from all sorts of countries.
I'm sure that overall, a lot of countries don't care. A lot of them probably don't know. But looking on this event and past event, expressions of sorrow, hope, and unitedness come from other parts of the world towards the US more than I see outpouring from the US to other countries. Even when the huge shooting in Norway happened, it made the news here. But I didn't see candle vigils popping up in the US for Norway, or signs being held by people and so on. I see those things coming our way from other countries though, including women who live in Kabul (if it was real) holding signs saying they stood with Boston, the vigils so many kids did for the Newtown victims around the world, and so on. Most other countries are just better at expressing compassion for those who are different than we seem to be.
Karasti, I think there is a difference in scope. One evening about 8 years ago my adopted Pakistani adult son invited me to a very large Pakistani party -- something like 100 people. I was the only American. Throughout the course of the evening, everyone was very courteous to me, downright friendly, and many sat down to chat with me for at least a few minutes. The shocking thing to me was, that of the...oh, maybe 25...who sat down to chat, eventually every conversation came around to, "Don't you agree that 9/11 was a CIA plot." Every single conversation.
Yes, in American people can get wrapped up into conspiracy thinking. But, in the Arab world it seems rampant. I've often had that impression over the years while watching events in the Middle East, in general. But this was my own experience with Muslim Asians here in America.
Of course, I'm not saying it's 100% in the Muslim world, and I balance that conspiracy thinking with how nicely they accepted me and how friendly they were.
@karasti thanks karasti I just hope all the hatred would be repaid with love. I am not a supporter of the U.S, or anyone else but saw this happen repeatedly in Indonesia makes me sick.
@vinlyn interesting, thanks for sharing. I have a few Muslim friends, but they are Arab and not Asian. Most of them have been living in the US for quite a while so they don't seem to get caught up in the conspiracy theory. They have to fight pretty hard to even have an opinion on most matters and tend to get damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they disagree with the majority opinion, they are terrorsists at worst, or bad Americans at best. If they agree, they are suspected of being Al Queda spies. We don't have a large Muslim population here, but this is just my limited experience. Sad. A girl who lives in our town holds a view that she is fine with other ethnicities and races, but that "no one who is Arab can ever be a real American." Oy.
The bravest thing I ever personally saw a person do was on the day after 9/11. Our guidance counselor went to visit the local Muslim mosque and let them know that he and most of the people he knew didn't blame Muslims (in general) for 9/11. The guidance counselor was Jewish!
Cooperation is seen even among animals. It is just a survival strategy, no big deal. It has nothing to do with compassion or morality. Also people don't do these things - not because they are good but because they are too cowardly. That's the difference between an average guy and a psycho - the psycho is bad, does bad things. We too are just as bad, but don't do bad things (for fear of getting caught).
Do you really believe that people are incapable of any empathy towards others? Thats a very bleak way to see the world, and there's little to support it. Many people don't act like pschos because they aren't wired that way -- they don't have the desire to perform those sorts of acts. You seem bent on pulling out the worst examples of what humanity has to offer as being representative of the whole while convenienty ignoring or dismissing the good that humanity does show to each other. In reality people aren't inherently bad any more than we are inherently all goodness and light.
You mention survival strategy having nothing to do with compassion, but I would disagree here and say that we are naturally capable of compassion and it is one of the things that has allowed us to survive as successfully as we have. If we were all as awful as you suggest, morality would never even be discussed.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Just because cooperation or compassion are rooted in evolution doesn't make them anymore real. Care and compassion towards ones close ones are natural parts of humans and many animals. The boundary of our circle for who is in the in group and who is in the out group can be changed and expanded, even animals do this, so that we can embrace all sentient beings. This is what the Buddha taught.
A traveler came upon an old farmer hoeing in his field beside the road. Eager to rest his feet, the wanderer hailed the countryman, who seemed happy enough to straighten his back and talk for a moment. "What sort of people live in the next town?" asked the stranger.
"What were the people like where you've come from?" replied the farmer, answering the question with another question.
"They were a bad lot. Troublemakers all, and lazy too. The most selfish people in the world, and not a one of them to be trusted. I'm happy to be leaving the scoundrels."
"Is that so?" replied the old farmer. "Well, I'm afraid that you'll find the same sort in the next town.
Disappointed, the traveler trudged on his way, and the farmer returned to his work.
Some time later another stranger, coming from the same direction, hailed the farmer, and they stopped to talk. "What sort of people live in the next town?" he asked.
"What were the people like where you've come from?" replied the farmer once again.
"They were the best people in the world. Hard working, honest, and friendly. I'm sorry to be leaving them."
"Fear not," said the farmer. "You'll find the same sort in the next town."
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Just because cooperation or compassion are rooted in evolution doesn't make them anymore real. Care and compassion towards ones close ones are natural parts of humans and many animals. The boundary of our circle for who is in the in group and who is in the out group can be changed and expanded, even animals do this, so that we can embrace all sentient beings. This is what the Buddha taught.
And what's more, anger and aggression would also be considered a survival strategy.
there will always be people who do this. there are 7 billion people in the world. is it surprising that some people did this? all it takes is a person with some knowledge about explosives.
They captured the bomber, who has wasted his and others life and time.
Do good guys. To the best of your capacity. Dharma. Simples.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I heard about the hunt. By all accounts the younger brother on the run was an upstanding quality person. It seems like his older more radicalized brother got into his brain much like the relationship with the two DC snipers.
I feel bad for everyone involved. Looking at his pictures, he's a child. He might be legally an adult but he's a child none the less. I am glad he was captured alive. I hope they he can make something positive with his life even in prison. He made his own choices but it seems to me he was likely drug on this adventure by his older brother. Now his brother with the bright ideas is dead, their parents are in Russia, the rest of their family is angry. Everything lost, and nothing gained.
People need to stop seeing themselves as more than their actions. People look for their internal value through only their actions, and it isn't there. That is why it's so important to know the "who" is behind all your thoughts, words and actions. Without knowing that, nothing means anything.
... People need to stop seeing themselves as more than their actions. People look for their internal value through only their actions, and it isn't there. That is why it's so important to know the "who" is behind all your thoughts, words and actions. Without knowing that, nothing means anything.
In fact, perhaps this is a good example of where intention without wisdom is a poor course of action.
Comments
Ah, see how easy it is to identify someone else as "bad".
Seriously, you seem to have an awfully negative perspective on life. There's a difference between being a Buddhist realist and always being negative.
Its a TED talk by Steven Pinker on the massive decline in violence in the world today when compared to our long history.
We are all one society and we all contribute. But we are not all the same. A wave is called a wave because it is not identical to the ocean it comes from.
I responded by saying I agree, they probably don't and that is equally as tragic. Hopefully the human race is evolving into a more compassionate race over time. I suppose evolution isn't measurable over a single lifetime though.
THE CAPTION SAID:
"Photos in the left (the victim in the Boston marathon) is a photo of the same person with the right of (former U.S. soldier) .. so it could be said the cheating .. some possibilities:
1. Pictures of people on the left to pretend broken leg when hit by a bomb (though his leg was deformed first)
2. Most likely the person is a bomb actors who pretend to be the victim in boston.
3. Or you could say this engineering from the United States to accuse this was an act of terrorism "Islamic" when it works / engineering the U.S. alone."
So, i think it is so stupid!
Gripping onto a cloak of self, all one feels is the inate seperation which spawned this birth. This myopic view perpetuates it's own world of suffering..
Dropping this cloak of self leaves little to be seperated from anything and resolves the constuents of sufferings cause.
One can solidify identity through fostering a them & us mentality
or
release it all to become whole again as an expanding heart.
I am not saying that what you say is true or not, just that this sad reality that you speak of is a construct of your own making and if you'd like it to be different, you can.
I'm sure that overall, a lot of countries don't care. A lot of them probably don't know. But looking on this event and past event, expressions of sorrow, hope, and unitedness come from other parts of the world towards the US more than I see outpouring from the US to other countries. Even when the huge shooting in Norway happened, it made the news here. But I didn't see candle vigils popping up in the US for Norway, or signs being held by people and so on. I see those things coming our way from other countries though, including women who live in Kabul (if it was real) holding signs saying they stood with Boston, the vigils so many kids did for the Newtown victims around the world, and so on. Most other countries are just better at expressing compassion for those who are different than we seem to be.
Yes, in American people can get wrapped up into conspiracy thinking. But, in the Arab world it seems rampant. I've often had that impression over the years while watching events in the Middle East, in general. But this was my own experience with Muslim Asians here in America.
Of course, I'm not saying it's 100% in the Muslim world, and I balance that conspiracy thinking with how nicely they accepted me and how friendly they were.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/04/photos-to-boston-from-kabul-with-love/275063/
You mention survival strategy having nothing to do with compassion, but I would disagree here and say that we are naturally capable of compassion and it is one of the things that has allowed us to survive as successfully as we have. If we were all as awful as you suggest, morality would never even be discussed.
"What sort of people live in the next town?" asked the stranger.
"What were the people like where you've come from?" replied the farmer, answering the question with another question.
"They were a bad lot. Troublemakers all, and lazy too. The most selfish people in the world, and not a one of them to be trusted. I'm happy to be leaving the scoundrels."
"Is that so?" replied the old farmer. "Well, I'm afraid that you'll find the same sort in the next town.
Disappointed, the traveler trudged on his way, and the farmer returned to his work.
Some time later another stranger, coming from the same direction, hailed the farmer, and they stopped to talk. "What sort of people live in the next town?" he asked.
"What were the people like where you've come from?" replied the farmer once again.
"They were the best people in the world. Hard working, honest, and friendly. I'm sorry to be leaving them."
"Fear not," said the farmer. "You'll find the same sort in the next town."
there are 7 billion people in the world.
is it surprising that some people did this?
all it takes is a person with some knowledge about explosives.
Do good guys. To the best of your capacity. Dharma. Simples.
People need to stop seeing themselves as more than their actions. People look for their internal value through only their actions, and it isn't there. That is why it's so important to know the "who" is behind all your thoughts, words and actions. Without knowing that, nothing means anything.