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Zen Proverb explanation?

JayjayJayjay Veteran
in Meditation
Yet another explanation is required by my dukkha ridden mind:

Te-shan was sitting outside doing zazen. Lung-t'an
asked him why he didn't go back home. Te-shan answered,
"Because it is dark." Lung-t'an then lit a candle and handed
it to him. As Te-shan was about to take it, Lung-t'an blew it out.
Te-shan had a sudden realization, and bowed.

Can anyone help me with this one??

Comments

  • blu3reeblu3ree Veteran
    Merely an educated guess be a light unto yourself?
    Jayjay
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    It was dark and he wanted it to be.
    person
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Blow out the importance of the question. Then blow out the need for an answer.
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    Te Shan was a lecturing monk who travelled south – bringing some of his comments on the Diamond Sutra – to teach the “southern devils” who (in his mind) over-simplified the Buddha’s teaching.

    The rest of the story is about how his intellectual approach breaks down in meetings with an old woman and with Lung T’an.
    The day after his awakening he burned his comments in front of the teaching hall.

    This theme is not new:

    A special transmission outside the scriptures,
    Not founded upon words and letters.
    By pointing directly to one's mind,
    It lets one see into one's own true nature and thus attain Buddhahood.
    (Bodhidharma)
    Maybe a similar experience would be when we finally understand the Dharma and we are close to finishing “The Ultimate Book on Zen” in Word. And then the computer crashes and we have no back-up files.
    lobsterCinorjer
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    The discursive and intellectual is trying to engage. You are like someone going to an art gallery and asking if a painting can be considered good if the paints have not been weighed. When someone smiles it is just a slight movement of flesh. Now where is the joy?
    RodrigoJeffrey
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    I'm not sure exactly what there is to be explained. The guy didn't go home because it was dark. The other guy gave him a candle and then blew it out. Then the guy had a sudden realization. That's all that happened. Perhaps you are asking "What did he realize?" If so, that's a good question!
    riverflow
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    @Zenff has the key. Te Shan was a famous lecturer on Buddhist doctrine and the Diamond Sutra in particular. The sutras and intellectual understanding were his entire world and he disagreed with this newfangled thing called Zen that claimed Buddha-Nature could be found outside of the scriptures.

    Then the story says he met a woman who trampled on his carefully built mountain of words with a simple question. At the point in the story where Lung Tan helps, Te Shan was perched on the edge.

    Koans are all about metaphor. What metaphor is the lit candle? What does it stand for? And by blowing it out just as Lung Tan hands it to Te Shan, what was the old Teacher trying to say beyond words to the struggling Te Shan?

    The story goes on to say Te Shan burnt his collection of sutras that he had been lecturing from. Some Zen students get the wrong idea that the lesson is that sutras are bad. This isn't the lesson at all. It was that, at this point, Te Shan no longer needed the sutras.
    lamaramadingdongFlorian
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Jayjay said:

    Yet another explanation is required by my dukkha ridden mind:

    Te-shan was sitting outside doing zazen. Lung-t'an
    asked him why he didn't go back home. Te-shan answered,
    "Because it is dark." Lung-t'an then lit a candle and handed
    it to him. As Te-shan was about to take it, Lung-t'an blew it out.
    Te-shan had a sudden realization, and bowed.

    Can anyone help me with this one??

    I think that the meaning is that if we try to hold on to an experience inevitably the experience will deaden. The candle lighted as in the peak experience but then you have to blow it out and come back home.
    Lucy_Begood
  • Lucy_BegoodLucy_Begood Explorer
    @Jayjay, what does it mean to you? That is all that matters.
    lobsterChe
  • nlightennlighten Explorer
    blu3ree said:

    Merely an educated guess be a light unto yourself?

    This is the first thing that came to my
    mind too.

    I think he was showing him the similarity between enlightenment and the candle. When you're in the dark and are not able to see, you are afraid and are limited by your knowledge and experience of the terrain, because every step is a potential danger and
    you cannot see things as they truely are at the present moment. But, when he lights the candle, even though nothing changes, he is no longer afraid because he can see the truth and can move about the world freely. But, all the teacher did was give him a glimpse and showed him the way. The rest was up to him to do. It was necessary for him to do it himself, so that he could always be able to see.

    personCinorjer
  • EnigmaEnigma Explorer
    edited April 2013
    Extinguishing the flame of a candle is traditionally a metaphor for nibbana/nirvana. There is no way to characterize a flame unbound by fuel, which previously burned only when fed with firewood, grass, or other sustenance. Likewise, it is fruitless to grasp at words to define enlightenment. The flame has simply gone out - the three fires of attachment, aversion, and delusion have been extinguished. Zen expresses this directly through the blowing out of the candle's flame, no words necessary.
    Cinorjer
  • PatrPatr Veteran
    What colorful responses, ...everyone's trying

    Its to do with the mind only concept. The darkness and light are external stimuli, impinging on the five senses, (sight here ). One can only distinguish the true nature of mind when we recognise that seeing is the same with or without light. The faculty of seeing in the dharma is based upon consciousness of the mind, namely the 6, 7 and 8 levels of consciousness.
    We recognise sights due to our minds perception, the eye is but an organ which facilitates it.

    It goes deeper than this, but this is the meaning for the above.
    Jeffrey
  • PatrPatr Veteran
    What colorful responses, ...everyone's trying

    Its to do with the mind only concept. The darkness and light are external stimuli, impinging on the five senses, (sight here ). One can only distinguish the true nature of mind when we recognise that seeing is the same with or without light. The faculty of seeing in the dharma is based upon consciousness of the mind, namely the 6, 7 and 8 levels of consciousness.
    We recognise sights due to our minds perception, the eye is but an organ which facilitates it.

    It goes deeper than this, but this is the meaning for the above.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Candle.
    Out.
    Job done.
  • CheChe Veteran
    And the old Zen standard..
    "If you understand, things are just as they are. If you don't understand, things are just as they are"
    riverflowJeffrey
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    what lights the way is not the candle
    Vastmind
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited April 2013
    ^^^That was my take as well.
    Giving him the candle also set up an expectation....
    and what do you do when the rug is pulled out from
    under you?...aka..your candle gets blown out? Can you
    keep walking through your dark? Has How said...can you
    let go and get walking?
    Have you let go of your fear of the dark?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Simple.
    'Be' wherever you are.

    The only place is 'Here'
    The only time is 'Now'.
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