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What do you do if a friend is in a harmful path?
dhammacitta
Explorer
I've had a fall-off recently with someone I considered a friend. He turned out to be something I can't stand: homophobic. And also vengeful. I tried to tell him these sorts of things aren't good and they hurt him and others. But he saw it as me being self-righteous and a dictator of sorts. I actually was trying to help him, steer him away from that. Was that a good thing to do? Should I've just let him be? Is it possible or beneficial to be friends with someone with such views, especially if your are quite contrary?
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You yourself say: "He turned out to be something I can't stand", so it sounds like there is some aversion there on both sides.
It's hard to be skillful in communication when there is aversion present.
You have to decide if his attributes are worthy or not worthy of your friendship. It's sort of like that saying, "Don't sweat the small stuff; it's all small stuff." The first half of that I agree with -- don't pick at every little peccadillo. But, on the other hand, it's not all small stuff. Some things do matter. Yesterday I went to see that film "42" about Jackie Robinson (which by the way, is a near-perfect film, even if you don't like baseball). It was interesting to watch the interpersonal dynamics between White people (including the players) and how some struggled with their long held and ingrained beliefs. So, is your friend a lost cause in terms of homophobia and vengeance?
But I will also say that there's one thing I can't personally stand -- nagging. Whether I'm right or wrong, if you nag me about something, the friendship/relationship is over.
On being vengeful. Also, it's extreme. Some people seek vengeance because they are so hurt they can't stand there and forgive. But he delights in it. Like he wants to bathe in other's misery. That's more like cruely, not just vengeance.
He also has that tendency to dismiss people who try to be good as stupid. It's just too much. I do wonder if I've done bad, which is why I'm asking. I was possibly very forward in my beliefs and intolerant of his. But it is so difficult to be tolerant of intolerance...
For example, my town is at odds with each other over a proposed mine in the area. I am not in support of the mining, 90% of the town does support it. In MY view, I am working to protect the environment. Our town relies on it for tourism as well as the extensive wildlife and plant life and clean water that we have here. It can all be ruined in a heart beat, as has happened every single time this mining company has operated anywhere else in the world. So me, my view is right and theirs is wrong. However, in their view, they want jobs. They want the kids schools to have more money. They don't want to have to work at ShopKo for $7 an hour just to have health benefits. Some of the people working those jobs are 70 years old, and cannot afford not to work, even for $7 an hour. I feel for them, but I still don't think mining is the right way to go (as if a mine is going to have 70 year olds underground anyhow).
But when they look at me, they see someone who wants to hurt their loved ones by not allowing them to have well paying, benefited jobs. I don't think short term gain for long term consequence is a fair trade. They do. Each of us thinks the other is hurting people. But your darn tootin' if comes to a vote (which it won't but I write my congressmen on it all the time), I will vote on my side which means voting to take away jobs and financial security and health care form people who need it.
So, it's not as easy to look at it that way when you are the one taking something away from people when you think it's the right thing to do. The people who vote against gay rights, feel equally as strong that it is the right thing to do as what I am doing. So that makes it hard. In my case, it's easy to look at it and say "i am trying to protect people form things they are refusing to see." But people who are against gay rights for religious reasons think the same thing. So what is to say I am in the right and they are not? In the end, it only comes down to being able to do our best and not judge others because they are doing the same thing. And believe me, it's hard to do, because I've been involved in the gay marriage fight heavily in my state and trying to work on compassion for some of these people is really, really hard.
If your friend knows you are LGBT and still treats you well, I say just leave them be and avoid the topic when it comes up. Little by little they'll probably lighten up as they see a counter-example to their homophobic views (you). But if they have an issue with you being LGBT and/or make you uncomfortable then you probably need to say goodbye. Don't try to be a saviour-- there are plenty of other things you could devote your life energy to and actually achieve some degree of success.
Finally, when I immigrated to the West, I came from a homophobic culture. I was probably as homophobic as your friend. Over the years, from knowing some gays, I gradually realized that I was brainwashed by my culture and my views needed adjustment. It took about 6-7 years. If anyone tried to confront me about the issue head on, I'd probably freak out and get defensive.
Good luck and don't carry the weight of the world upon your shoulders-- it is too heavy
Friendship is worth more than being "right." Unless your friend starts advocating harming others.
It is better to avoid the company of fools but that means we always have leave the door of compassion open.
Friends I can choose. You don't need to abandon, just add good companions, sangha.
However, the only think you can do is say what needs to be said. The rest is up to them. You can't ultimately change a person unless they want to change -- it's in their hands. I discovered that the hard way a few times. If you find yourself drifting away from this person because of his attitude, then that's ok. There are people that I drifted away from, because our friendship was becoming toxic to me. I didn't fight or anything like that, just didn't do anything to encourage the relationship. I am lucky in the case of one person who happened to move quite a distance from me, so that took care of things on it's own. It's up to you whether you feel like you can be their friend or not, I don't think it's wrong to walk away.
I would try to let any anger or frustration towards them go, however. I found myself holding on to a lot of negative feelings towards the friend who moved long after she was for the most part gone from my life. I still have some of those feelings come up. If I had had a better way of dealing with them then, they might not be so ingrained now.
Like I said, this is for me and how I live my own life. I am getting better at stepping back and not arguing about many things. But there are some things that are just flat out deal breakers. I ceased to be friends (in person) with a girl I have known for 20 years because she posted on Facebook that no one who is Arab can ever be a real American. In all the years I knew her, it didn't come up but the second it did (and I engaged her in discussion about it to see if it was just a momentary brain fart or something) I was just done. I don't tolerate that kind of behavior in my life.
Edit: I should add that, I have a lot of acquaintances. But I keep a very short actual true friends list, and only those people who meet strict standards of being a decent human being are people I will consider as friends.
Some of us have to deal with unkind people, through work, family, environment, old friends. The important thing is developing better friendship, inspiring sangha, good companions.
If you are on the spiritual path and still hateful or unkind, you have work to do. If you angry, bigoted, racist or have a bad attitude, you have work to do. Look at the 8 fold path, it is moral and ethical behaviour. You wish to change but not change? Dream on.
Buddhism changes people for the better . . .
I see what you're getting at, and I agree to an extent. However, I feel like since we're talking very abstractly, it's hard to really determine where to draw the line (and of course the line is different for everyone). It seems we all have imagined a different level of bigotry for this hypothetical friend.
If a friend makes occasional remarks about Muslims that are blatantly stereotypical but not necessarily outright hateful, I would say that that's nothing to really take a firm stand on. In my view, personal opinions and remarks that are more or less kept private are the individual's own problem. They are creating suffering for themselves by cultivating prejudice.
BUT
If a friend outright promotes discrimination and encourages hate towards other people, god forbid engages in hateful activity towards others then that's obviously a situation to take a stand and burn bridges. Bringing that stuff into public is, in my opinion, far worse than muttering stuff under their breath or making comments to friends. But I think if a friend is that bigoted, the friendship will see its own course without any need to take action.
I guess I am trying to differentiate between prejudice and hate, the latter of which is where I tend to lump in "treating others badly" and outright discrimination. @karasti, I don't mean to pick on you, but let's use your example of that woman you knew who made the comment that "no Arab can ever be a real American."
While to most of us, that's a pretty narrow-minded opinion, it's just that - an opinion. It's not intrinsically "wrong." Similarly, saying that anyone who lives in America *is* "American" isn't intrinsically "right" either.
Isn't it up to the individual to decide how they identify themselves? Saying "No! They are Americans!" could offend some people just as much because they feel like they are being forced to give up their heritage and assimilate.
It is not our job to change the world, it is up to us to change ourselves. Nothing to change, everything perfect already?
Good company, seek it, become it. Good plan.
:wave:
Second paragraph: Why isn't it our job to change the world?
@lobster if you were the target of the racist's comments, would you still be able to work with them with no problems? Not accusing, just asking. To choose to have them for friends is one thing, to have to spend 8+ hours a day with someone who despises you because of what color your skin is? On a somewhat related note, today my teenager said "you know, some of the girls I go to school with have been tanning a lot because prom is this weekend. They make a lot of racist comments. I wonder if they know how out of place their own skin looks."
In terms of working with a racist person, I have...because that's what I was being paid to do.
You was in the right to inform your friend that being Homophobic and vengeful is not excitable and that is harmful to them selves and to others too.
As an individual there is only so much you can do, giving people informed choose is of great importance, then it's down to them if they decide to take on your advice or not.
Some people are stuck by their own delusions of Mara and until they see that the their own destructions are harming themselves and others and see the reality ,break the ties with Mara will be extremely difficult.
you have planted the seed of the right path and right view and it will need time to grow and develop.
whether or not saying something would be beneficial. Sometime it can be, sometimes not. It really depends on the individual person and individual situation.
You are the company you keep.
If however, they are vociferous with vitriol, hatred and ignorance, they transform themselves from Friend to Fool.
There are 1,500 species of animals who wilfully practice Homosexuality.
There is only one species where homophobia exists.
Who's the 'unnatural' one now?
Homophobia implies fear.
Fear of homosexuality.
Doesn't exist.
he's not afraid of homosexuals, he's just being a jerk.
I consider my friendships as a ....sensory doorbell.
I dont allow someone to stand there and keep ringing
me with some bullshit. As said in another thread....I 'cleanse'
my doorstop often.
Cost of doing business.
Buddha business, baby.
Sorry, I needed to vent and can anyone please make me feel less like a monster?