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The importance of the third noble truth in developing compassion

personperson Don't believe everything you thinkThe liminal space Veteran
I've heard Mattieu Ricard making the analogy of the importance of gaining wisdom and insight in regards to developing compassion.

He compared it to as if you were flying in a plane above the ocean and saw someone swimming with no land in sight, you would feel bad for them but could see very little hope for them. If, on the other hand you could see an island just out of their sight your feeling of concern for them would increase because you could see some hope for them to escape their situation.

If you get the first and second noble truths alone, it can feel depressing because it basically says life's a bitch. And many non Buddhists have this impression of Buddhism. But add the notion of an escape and a depressing philosophy becomes very bright and positive.
riverflowInvincible_summerSillyPuttyVastmindJeffreyzenffkarmabluesCinorjerStraight_Mannlighten

Comments

  • I do find it odd that a good deal of people who think Buddhism is pessimistic are Christians--you know, those people who believe in "original sin." And like Buddhism, and like any religion or (most) philosophies, the first thing to be addressed is some sort of obstacle to be overcome, whatever it might be.

    Its like beginning to read a novel when the conflict appears and putting the book down not bothering to read the rest of the story!

    Jeffreyzenffkashi
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    person said:

    I've heard Mattieu Ricard making the analogy of the importance of gaining wisdom and insight in regards to developing compassion.

    He compared it to as if you were flying in a plane above the ocean and saw someone swimming with no land in sight, you would feel bad for them but could see very little hope for them. If, on the other hand you could see an island just out of their sight your feeling of concern for them would increase because you could see some hope for them to escape their situation.

    I'm having some trouble with the analogy. I'd feel less concerned for someone who appeared to have some hope than for someone who appeared to have no hope. Am I missing something?
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Nevermind said:

    person said:

    I've heard Mattieu Ricard making the analogy of the importance of gaining wisdom and insight in regards to developing compassion.

    He compared it to as if you were flying in a plane above the ocean and saw someone swimming with no land in sight, you would feel bad for them but could see very little hope for them. If, on the other hand you could see an island just out of their sight your feeling of concern for them would increase because you could see some hope for them to escape their situation.

    I'm having some trouble with the analogy. I'd feel less concerned for someone who appeared to have some hope than for someone who appeared to have no hope. Am I missing something?
    I don't know, it always just struck me as true, I haven't given it much thought.

    I guess the important point might be that the island is out of the swimmers sight so they don't know about it, so you'd feel that if you could just let them know then they would be alright.
  • black_teablack_tea Explorer
    I don't find Buddhism pessimistic at all. The fact that every one experiences negative stressful things in their lives is obvious -- it's the way life is, and that's easily observable. The fact that there is a way out for everyone is a very optimistic statement. There is no eternal damnation, negative karma can be got rid of, and we do have control over this life and future lives by the actions we choose to take. All of those things should inspire hope.

    I think people don't always really think about what they read, so when they see something that says 'life is suffering' the automatic reaction becomes, 'No it isn't! Why the gloom and doom?!' Especially if they only see suffering as really Big Bad Stuff rather than the day to day stress, annoyance, frustration etc that everybody experiences.
    personVastmindlobster
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    edited May 2013
    person said:

    Nevermind said:

    person said:

    I've heard Mattieu Ricard making the analogy of the importance of gaining wisdom and insight in regards to developing compassion.

    He compared it to as if you were flying in a plane above the ocean and saw someone swimming with no land in sight, you would feel bad for them but could see very little hope for them. If, on the other hand you could see an island just out of their sight your feeling of concern for them would increase because you could see some hope for them to escape their situation.

    I'm having some trouble with the analogy. I'd feel less concerned for someone who appeared to have some hope than for someone who appeared to have no hope. Am I missing something?
    I don't know, it always just struck me as true, I haven't given it much thought.

    I guess the important point might be that the island is out of the swimmers sight so they don't know about it, so you'd feel that if you could just let them know then they would be alright.
    Right, so isn't this where the greater concern is?
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Nevermind said:

    person said:

    Nevermind said:

    person said:

    I've heard Mattieu Ricard making the analogy of the importance of gaining wisdom and insight in regards to developing compassion.

    He compared it to as if you were flying in a plane above the ocean and saw someone swimming with no land in sight, you would feel bad for them but could see very little hope for them. If, on the other hand you could see an island just out of their sight your feeling of concern for them would increase because you could see some hope for them to escape their situation.

    I'm having some trouble with the analogy. I'd feel less concerned for someone who appeared to have some hope than for someone who appeared to have no hope. Am I missing something?
    I don't know, it always just struck me as true, I haven't given it much thought.

    I guess the important point might be that the island is out of the swimmers sight so they don't know about it, so you'd feel that if you could just let them know then they would be alright.
    Right, so isn't this where the greater concern is?
    I feel like you're arguing with me but I don't get it. My statement here is trying to back up my OP.
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    I just don't get the analogy. Maybe you didn't retell it quite right?
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Nevermind said:

    I just don't get the analogy. Maybe you didn't retell it quite right?

    Yeah, maybe, rereading it I could add a couple lines that might help clarify.
    He compared it to as if you were flying in a plane above the ocean and saw someone swimming with no land in sight, you would feel bad for them but could see very little hope for them, and so wouldn't feel much incentive to help. If, on the other hand you could see an island just out of their sight your feeling of concern for them would increase because you could see some hope for them to escape their situation and would feel more compelled to intervene.
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Thanks, that makes sense. :)
  • @person - here's an article that touches a bit on what you are pointing out:

    buddhism.about.com/od/thefournobletruths/a/The-First-Noble-Truth.htm
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    riverflow said:

    @person - here's an article that touches a bit on what you are pointing out:

    buddhism.about.com/od/thefournobletruths/a/The-First-Noble-Truth.htm

    Thanks I wanted to link something to an article in my OP instead of just sharing my thoughts, but didn't find anything within my attention span. :thumbup:
    riverflow
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I don't find my view of Buddhism pessimistic.

    But while living in Thailand I learned that -- because of Buddhism and karma -- many Thais have a very fatalistic view of life.
    Invincible_summer
  • jlljll Veteran
    imo, buddhism is pessimistic.
    dukkha and samsara, endless suffering...
    the way to nirvana is the opposite of the way
    to worldly gains.

    buddha ask us to think about death everyday.

    what can be more pessimistic than that.

    when you look at things from the lens of an
    ordinary person, buddhism is extremely pessimistic.

    but what is buddha's goal?
    it is to show us the way to end our suffering,
    all of it, nirvana. Nirvana/nibbana means to extinguish.
    just like a flame that has been put out.
    where is buddha today?
    and the countless arahants that have died?



    riverflow said:

    I do find it odd that a good deal of people who think Buddhism is pessimistic are Christians--you know, those people who believe in "original sin." And like Buddhism, and like any religion or (most) philosophies, the first thing to be addressed is some sort of obstacle to be overcome, whatever it might be.

    Its like beginning to read a novel when the conflict appears and putting the book down not bothering to read the rest of the story!

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Buddhism replaces unsatisfying sense pleasures with disenchantment. Break free of the spell so that you can become a magician.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Buddhism replaces unsatisfying sense pleasures with disenchantment. Break free of the spell so that you can become a magician.
    :)
    Interesting approach. Breaking 'free of freedom' is just another unsatisfying spell craft. In the vajrayana, as a daka (wizard/Practioner/tantrika), one can indeed replace unskilful sensory enchantment with a spell of dharma-craft . . .

    However samsara is nirvana. Dukkha and enlightenment are one sense of Sense.

    I guess we all knew that deep down . . .
    Jeffrey
  • My 2 cents:

    There is this island of suffering, There is another island across the way...there is a raft to get across.
    Once you are there let go of all 3.
    riverflow
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    My first intro to Buddhism was in World Religions class in college. It really appealed to me but what was described in the short section in the book was very disheartening. It did not at all explain it the way that I understand it. It was not "this is what suffering is, we all experience it, but there is a way out." it was "Life is suffering. You will always suffer. If you do good deeds because they make you feel good, you're doing it wrong and they don't count" and some other really misrepresented things. I was so put off by just the chapter in that book that it took a fair amount of convincing myself to pick up a book and read about it 10 years later.

    Also, I think the initial reaction would be better received if it were not explained as suffering but rather unsatisfactoriness. When people think suffering, they immediately shy away and think of things like illness and deep suffering. They don't include every day stress and emotions and so on as suffering. They never get the chance to get that far because it's so offputting to hear "life is suffering."
    JeffreyInvincible_summer
  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited May 2013
    person said:

    I've heard Mattieu Ricard making the analogy of the importance of gaining wisdom and insight in regards to developing compassion.

    He compared it to as if you were flying in a plane above the ocean and saw someone swimming with no land in sight, you would feel bad for them but could see very little hope for them. If, on the other hand you could see an island just out of their sight your feeling of concern for them would increase because you could see some hope for them to escape their situation.

    If you get the first and second noble truths alone, it can feel depressing because it basically says life's a bitch. And many non Buddhists have this impression of Buddhism. But add the notion of an escape and a depressing philosophy becomes very bright and positive.

    How many of us truly feel that we are flying in a plane?
    Some are still lost at sea and some may have just spotted land.


    “Sir,” he said, “there are people stuck midstream in the
    terror and the fear of the rush of the river of being, and death
    and decay overwhelm them. For their sakes, Sir, tell me where
    to find an island, tell me where there is solid ground beyond
    the reach of all this pain.”

    “Kappa,” said the Master, “for the sake of those people
    stuck in the middle of the river of being, overwhelmed by
    death and decay, I will tell you where to find solid ground.
    “There is an island, an island which you cannot go beyond.
    It is a place of no-thingness, a place of non-possession and of
    non-attachment. It is the total end of death and decay, and this
    is why I call it Nibbana [the extinguished, the cool].

    “There are people who, in mindfulness, have realized this
    and are completely cooled here and now. They do not become
    slaves working for Mara, for Death; they cannot fall into his
    power.”

    ~ SuttaNipata 1092–5
    person
  • I don't know Mathieu Ricard very well, nor have I heard this talk, but I imagine he means that both the castaway and the pilot are usually components of our own experience in meditation.
  • JohnGJohnG Veteran
    To live is to suffer. All life is suffering. But, it depends on the individual to choose suffering. :coffee:
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    I don't find my view of Buddhism pessimistic.
    :)

    Whatever our practice, that is the solid ground, the islands in the stream, that enable, empower and . . . of course . . . we abandon . . .

    Whether we are an island, a raft, travelling in good company or standing on the far shore, ready to go back for straggling and struggling Bodhisatvas, we have a way. A proven way.

    http://www.thubtenchodron.org/DailyLifeDharma/practicing_buddhism_in_daily_life.html

  • footiamfootiam Veteran
    edited May 2013
    person said:


    If you get the first and second noble truths alone, it can feel depressing because it basically says life's a bitch. And many non Buddhists have this impression of Buddhism. But add the notion of an escape and a depressing philosophy becomes very bright and positive.

    If life is a bitch, it is a bitch. They say, if a spade, call it a spade.
    You don't have to call it Mother Theresa.
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