Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Taking drugs, alcohol, food, [insert unskilful practice] for medicinal, emotional or recreational purposes is not helpful. If you need prescribed drugs, then take them. Don't avoid well being or help.
Drugs are not a helpful as an example to those requiring clarity or to 'aid' meditation 'for insights'. It is suffering. Shaman take drugs and to have hallucinations, to alter consciousness. Complete path of befuddlement. Great fun no doubt . . . there is a reason drugs are not helpful. Buddhism has better options and tools. @karmablues provided an excellent analysis/advice.
Remember Buddhism is about focus. Focus on what is useful . . . well that is my plan
Shaman take drugs and to have hallucinations, to alter consciousness. Complete path of befuddlement.
..... and you know this because........
WAIT!!! You really don't know it. You're just saying that. It reminds me of this guy over on The Big View who rips on Mahayana all the time. He'll admit he doesn't know much about Mahayana but goes on posting hateful and vitriolic messages about it anyway, but without a shread of knowledge or understanding=ding to back it up.
I'm sure there are millions of otherwise religious and non-religious people who would declare Buddhism is a complete path of 'befuddlement' as well. What with all the koans, endlessly verbose sutras, mystical stories, hundreds of deities, nothingness vs emptiness, chanting, meditating, relentlessly contemplating one's belly button lint.... etc.
I know it because I've taken a lot of drugs and alcohol to alter my consciousness. It is the path of befuddlement.
But intent and context is everything. That may have been exactly why you took drugs and used alcohol - to get high, lose control, erase inhibitions (and responsibility and problems). But that is not the reason religious people - shamans and other indigenous people far removed from 'modern' life and culture - use/d them. Their path is just as clear to them as yours is to you. You are viewing them with a bias at best, or a closed mind at worst.
You seem to be doing a lot of guessing now, MaryAnne. You do not know why I used drugs or alcohol and you seem to know what shamans think too. Are you sure there wasn't the odd shaman who just kinda enjoyed getting out of his face?
I'm not a mind reader, I've just shared my experience; it counts for far more than mere opinion. Remember, I did not choose to be an alcoholic - I've yet to meet an alkie or addict who intended to be one (intention is everything right?). We drank and drugged for a whole host of reasons and the effect was 'befuddlement'; or hopeless-incomprehensible demoralisation.
If people want to drug, then drug, but please, don't try and dress it up with a Buddhist spiritual practise; it's not.
There are sadhu, rastafari, peyote shaman and etc.; there have been many spiritual endevors have used various substances, soma, elixiers throughout history. Some are ritualistically symbolized and some have psychoactive properties and some are both...even some declare the avoidence of substances...like PORK/Bacon. Imo the discussion needs to be sensitive to and take into account ethno-geo-cultural differences. It does seem here that much of the discussion here has a rather white american protestant feel...but perhaps that's my projection of having been raised as one.
I know it from experience. I have practiced a variety of paths, some of which I do not mention. I have taken a variety of drugs to gain insight. If you want spirit possession it can be done without drug use. If you want to heal people it can be done without human sacrifice - OK I admit never tried that . . .
Buddhism is a practical and fast method to clear thinking. I gained insight from a variety of impacts. Drugs taught me one thing. Befuddlement. If you were more skillful or think something is useful to you - Hooray.
If you are advocating the benefits of shamanic or wiccan or wizard practices, spirit possession, spirit intoxication then . . . it is up to you to provide superior insights, that only come from such an approach.
Intent and context is everything
Indeed. On the whole drugs and alcohol is not skillful in Buddhism. We have behaviours for example a tendency towards an over intellectualism. We could chill with a dose of THC or we could use something more skillful and legal.
The difference is I'm arguing in 'defense' of personal choice and - most importantly - being non-judgmental about others' choices. I'm not telling anyone they SHOULD do cannabis or any drug in order to facilitate their 'religious' experiences or meditation practices - I would never do that. But it is certainly being said here, in more ways than one, that No One Should EVER do cannabis or try to facilitate their meditation in any way like that. No No. Never. Bad, bad. A fools journey!
I'm just trying to get others to be aware (and maybe admit?) that THEIR experiences are not EVERYONE's experiences. THEIR motivations are not the same motivations for EVERYONE. Also, cultural differences can and usually do dictate one's outlook on many things- including drugs, alcohol, and yes even religion and how one practices it.
To sit here and read many of us say "You are deluded"... "drugs are always bad in all ways, all the time"... "What you experienced under the influence wasn't "real"... and other blanket statements and snap judgments and then to further criticize and 'dis' whole other cultures and religious practices not your own.... well I find that worth discussing. Why? Well, one reason is because for more than 35 yrs I was one of those people that was the target of snap judgements, misconceptions and criticism, so I know what it's like from that side of the fence. Open your mind, people, everything is not black and white, good and evil, yes or no. Not everyone meditates with the same goals as you, not everyone is a Buddhist practicing exactly like you, not everyone thinks exactly as you do.
Tell us your experiences, tell us why you have the opinion you have and how it stems from YOUR personal experiences.... but please stop telling everyone else their experience is invalid or corrupted, just because it didn't (or doesn't) work that way for YOU. You do your thing because it works for you; other things may work just fine for other people.
Some people can't even have one single drink and they lose control.... so do we assume EVERYONE having one drink is alcoholic? Someone smokes a huge blunt and can't move off the sofa for 2 hours.... is that the same as someone who takes two small puffs of a joint and sits down all relaxed to do meditation? Come on.....
Round and round and we still haven't gotten there yet. But I'm going to try and resist adding any more to this thread. Really, I'm trying!!
BTW Marijuana is legal in several US states, both for recreation AND medicinal purposes. It is 'decriminalized' in even more states. legality isn't an issue for me because the federal law is ridiculous and always has been. And in my state I can have cannabis for medical reasons.
Do people using required pharmaceutical drugs stop taking them so as to insure their meditation practices are "pure" and unadulterated? You know, so that in case they have a profoundly meaningful insight or spiritual moment while meditating, they can feel confident they weren't 'tricked' by the drugs they take.... Seriously?
Context is important! Especially important when discussing it with people on a Buddhist forum about a Buddhist view of the subject. People on cannabis.com would of course have a different view on the subject!
If people really want to know about what Buddhism says on the subject, instead of random people and their opinions. People should go to a local Buddhist temple and ask the head monk or teacher what they think about it. See what they say. Even better if a person already has a teacher. This would be a good question to ask them and see what they say. But then again, maybe people really don't care what Buddhism teaches regarding this. Which is fine. My teachers teacher would respond to that by usually saying something like "Not good, not bad". What is interesting is that he did not say it was "bad", but he did say it was "not good".
Nobody is dressing it up a Buddhist spiritual practice @Tosh. But anything may be a practice if we make it one, and even if it is not one it might be helpful in various ways. I don't think you should generalise your negative experience to everyone else, and maybe you could give shaman a little more credit. I found that my drug of choice clarified many things for me, as well as bringing the occasional befuddlement. It certainly did not bring demoralisation.
As someone said earlier, it is possible to use drugs in a variety of ways. It is even considered an error by many shaman to use them outside of a religious context. There are no hard and fast rules about these things, just general principles. As @MaryAne says, intent and context is the thing.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I feel the best arguments on this topic are from those who have taken drugs in a spiritual context, like many of the old hippy teachers did, and then also followed a non drug meditative life, they have the experience of seeing both sides of the story.
If we talk about this having only really experienced one side of the picture I don't see where our arguments have any validity.
Also, just saying one technique works better than another doesn't imply any moral judgment of good or bad. Like saying using one foot to work both the gas and brake while driving instead of two doesn't mean people who use two feet are bad or wicked.
In the end we have to make our own minds up about the issue. What I will say, for what its worth, is that if anyone can post a quotation from any recognised Buddhist teacher from any tradition, that is positive about cannabis/marijuana/THC I will donate £100 to a charity of the posters choice.
Florian, my alcoholism isn't negative; it's wonderful; it's the best - I've learnt so much from it. But I could also posit that drinking to excess is a spiritual practise. It certainly gave me a sense of peacefulness (when it worked); it kept me in the present moment - I could just sit and be.
There's also a god of drunkenness - Bacchus - but I'm under no illusion; drinking alcohol isn't a right spiritual practise and neither is smoking dope. I wonder why they call it dope?
As for intent and context; there's more to it than just that. When I first started drinking it was fun; I did not intend to become an alcoholic - that just happened without that intention; no-one INTENDS to become an alcoholic! The Eightfold Path is something that works together; right intention is linked with right view for a very good reason.
If you think that drugs is good for you, fill yer boots, justify it anyway you like; but it still isn't Buddhism and I doubt it's a 'right view'.
I found that my drug of choice clarified many things for me, as well as bringing the occasional befuddlement. It certainly did not bring demoralisation.
I kinda think that recreational drugs is a bit like drink driving. Some folk can drink drive many many times without any consequences, but eventually, if they do it often enough; they'll harms someone, including themselves.
Check it out with a reputable teacher if you're still in doubt.
Drugs are often used as medicine. This neediness can distort our judgement because the drug (can) come to the center stage instead of the dharma. Shockingly (?) I drink a six pack every grocery shopping trip. I still have plenty of room in my awareness mandala to have insight and meditation during other days. But the substance and need for medicine can possibly crowd out the awareness practice and make it all about medicating. The basic pattern of a euphoric drug is that it makes us feel so much better. Then the effect attenuates and we just do it because we get anxious. And then we have a pile of band aids and the band aids are at center stage having forgotten the wound. This is all just my perception; we are all adults so 'whatever floats your boat'.
It seems there are a number of shamans who advise against the use of drugs. In fact, extensive cross-cultural research shows that among traditional shamans around the world, the use of hallucinogens is a marginal practice because around 90 per cent of the world's shamanic cultures use drumming instead of drugs to enter altered states.
From "Shamans and psychedelic drugs" by White Cranes, a Houston Shamanism Examiner:
People seem to be fascinated by the idea of taking psychedelic drugs as some kind of shortcut to shamanism. They are not. There are no shortcuts.
.....
Even now, for some people, shamanism is a code word for using psychedelic drugs. They seem to equate the two. But real shamans do not have to rely on psychedelic drugs to journey.
Shamans in many cultures do not use such drugs at all. Others require that shaman apprentices learn to journey first without them. Among the Bushmen people of central Africa, for example, the saying is that if you use drugs first, you will never learn to journey.
As I wrote in a previous article, when people live in small bands of gatherers and hunters, each group needs a shaman, but there may not be enough naturally gifted shamans for each group to have one. In that case, drug use may begin as a crutch to help see visions.
....
The other point about taking psychedelic drugs---or any mood-altering substance---is that it opens you up to spirits without control. You lose your ability to discern and to chose which spirits to open up to. That can be very dangerous.
So the next time you hear someone equate shamanism with drug use, just know that they do not have all the facts. And if you want to experience something mind-blowing, learn to journey without drugs, and you may never need them at all.
From "Drug-free Shamanism" by Jim PathFinder Ewing, a pioneer in the study of eco spirituality, spiritual ecology and environmental shamanism:
Shamanism seems to always need a qualifier these days. More and more, I am receiving emails from people who equate taking psychotropic drugs with shamanism. .... Many people are associating shamanism with the use of psychotropic drugs – I believe a trend that those in the shamanic community should seek to offset, or at least educate, in order to prevent unwanted associations and potential dangers.
The rationalization for drug-induced ‘vision-questing’ may stem from misunderstanding of the early teachings of Don Juan Matus as told by Carlos Castaneda in his books. Don Juan was reported in the later books as having told Castaneda that people don’t need drugs to journey shamanically. He had Castaneda take a hallucinogen because he was so stubbornly insensitive to non-ordinary reality that extreme measures were necessary. Indeed, after his initial drug-induced journeying, Castaneda regularly accessed non-ordinary reality without using drugs.
......
Shamanic healing doesn’t need drugs The healing aspect of shamanism, and as a guide for personal spiritual development, uses a natural, non-drug induced, altered state of consciousness brought on by rhythmic percussion and ritual to facilitate health in self and others. One does not need drugs of any kind to achieve the shamanic state, it’s natural, as natural as dreaming at night or day dreaming. All the “chemicals” one needs are already in our bodies, as Candace Pert, the neuroscientist who discovered the opiate receptor, the cellular bonding site for endorphins in the brain, and others have proven.
Indeed, outside chemicals only interfere, either by blocking access to the sensitivity needed to “see.” Or, in the case of strong psychotropic drugs, “blowing off the doors” of the ability to discern reality from nonreality.
......
Discernment is the first rule of shamanism, being able to discern who, what and how things are around you, and how you fit within the energetic scheme, knowing exactly where your energy - seen and unseen - is going. It’s a constant test. Discernment can be seen as a very definition of shamanism, one who can see in nonordinary reality but cannot cope in what is considered ordinary reality is not a shaman but a lunatic. One must be able to “walk between the worlds” with ease, able to ground fully and use five-sense perceptions in the 3-D world and step into nonordinary reality and back again in order to truly master the craft of shamanism.
Use of drugs to obtain the shamanic state can destroy this ability of keeping discernment and maintaining harmony and balance that mark the shaman, though it may be regained, with great effort. Many young people have come to me after taking drugs thinking it would enhance their perception, turn them into shamans, but they have had to learn the rudiments of grounding, centering and shielding from the beginning, starting all over again just to regain normal functioning. It’s a long and arduous process to rebuild the foundations of perception that can be shattered so easily by illadvised use of drugs.
Using drugs to attain a “shamanic” state can also become a crutch that limits shamanic ability - the freedom to choose that comes from discernment, unfettered by attachments to the material world, in this case, physical or psychological addiction to a drug. It can prevent those just starting out from developing their own personal power and limit their ability to explore various avenues of perception that are available only by being fully aware and unclouded by physical and psychological effects. Through use of the drum or in nightly dreaming, shamanic ability is naturally obtained and sustainable without the use of any outside drug.
From "My Path in Shamanism - Interview with Michael Harner". Michael Harner is widely acknowledged as the world’s foremost authority on shamanism (see his bio at link embedded above).
Eventually, I came to many dead ends. For example, I was sure that pituri, Duboisia hopwoodii, used by the Australian aborigines, was going to turn out to have Datura-like effects, but it apparently did not. The Inuit shamans seemed like another dead end because I couldn’t find any psychotropic plant use among them, and they were certainly having strong spiritual experiences. The evidence was staring me in the face for a long time, but I didn’t see it; that in perhaps 90 percent of the world’s shamanic cultures they use a monotonous percussive sound to enter altered states of consciousness, rather than significant psychedelics.
Finally I got around to trying drumming. I had a bias against it being able to do anything, but lo and behold, after various experiments, it worked. Later I spent some time with Northwest Coast Indians who used drums in a very effective way for reaching the shamanic state of consciousness. I now have great respect for monotonous percussive sound for producing similar experiences and allowing one to get to the same altered states, if one has the proper training... So my path involves monotonous percussive sound or sonic driving. And that’s what has made it so easy for me to teach shamanism through the years, because it’s a legal, safe, effective, and ancient method.
From "The Beauty of the Primitive" by Andrei Znamenski, Oxford University Press (2007):
Despite those profound experiences, sometime in the 1970s, Harner realized that what he was learning with Jivaro shamans about entering altered states through hallucinogens was, in fact, a marginal practice.... Harner began to view pharmacological ways of reaching altered states not only as inefficient but also as detrimental. Thus he pointed out that hallucinogens might unleash confusing imagery, interfere with the concentration needed for shamanic work.... instead Harner noted that the sound of the shaman's drum supplemented by rattling could produce the same effect as the hallucinogenic snuffs and drinks, but without any negative side effects.
.....
[Harner] explained his decision to downplay the role of hallucinogens as a path to altered states by his cross-cultural observations... "I eventually concluded that the Amazonians' use of psychedelics was a minority practice. The much more common method to enter he shaman's altered state of consciousness was monotonous percussive sound, achieved especially through drumming."
Florian, my alcoholism isn't negative; it's wonderful; it's the best - I've learnt so much from it. But I could also posit that drinking to excess is a spiritual practise. It certainly gave me a sense of peacefulness (when it worked); it kept me in the present moment - I could just sit and be.
There's also a god of drunkenness - Bacchus - but I'm under no illusion; drinking alcohol isn't a right spiritual practise and neither is smoking dope. I wonder why they call it dope?
As for intent and context; there's more to it than just that. When I first started drinking it was fun; I did not intend to become an alcoholic - that just happened without that intention; no-one INTENDS to become an alcoholic! The Eightfold Path is something that works together; right intention is linked with right view for a very good reason.
If you think that drugs is good for you, fill yer boots, justify it anyway you like; but it still isn't Buddhism and I doubt it's a 'right view'.
I found that my drug of choice clarified many things for me, as well as bringing the occasional befuddlement. It certainly did not bring demoralisation.
I kinda think that recreational drugs is a bit like drink driving. Some folk can drink drive many many times without any consequences, but eventually, if they do it often enough; they'll harms someone, including themselves.
Check it out with a reputable teacher if you're still in doubt.
Nah. No teacher required. Yes, taking recreational drugs is like drink-driving. Lack of mindfulness is like drink-driving. We are not in proper control of our chariot. But there is a difference between being half a pint over the limit and ten pints. Hell, when I was young everybody did drink-driving from time to time. Then cars got faster, the roads got more crowded, etc etc.
Btw I did not say that drugs are good for me or anyone else. They did some good for me once upon a time. It wasn't Buddhism and it wasn't not Buddhism. It simply showed me that there are reasons to take Buddhist doctrine seriously. Pretty good result I'd say. But not a reason to keep doing it. I would never recommend it, but I believe a careful use of drugs, or even a lucky experience with them, can do a lot of good. Regardless, the downside is frighteningly dangerous, as you say.
The point about intent is that recreational drugs are not always taken for recreation. Some people smoke weed and sit around giggling with friends. Some explore their inner world in silence. In the music biz they are often taken in order to get the job done, since they can temporarily enhance various skills and senses. There is a price to pay, and that is understood. And nobody I've ever met has suggested it's a healthy option.
I must go look how soma was used in India. Not sure if it was a religious practice or the avoidance of one. Anybody know this?
Just do what feels right to YOU and YOUR higher-self. No being has to prove anything to anyone. I've noticed a lot of members here have A LOT of knowledge of several related topics, however, no one seems to discuss anything related to the NOW and what the heart feels. I wouldn't dare judge anyone for whatever choices they have made or continue to make. Meditation is not patented and Law of "Free Will" allows us to decide exactly how we want to reach/communicate with our higher-self. A lot of you guys are highly educated and I commend each and every one of you, but lets not forget the basics...Find your own TRUTH & LISTEN to your HEART!!!
If you are going to do drugs anyways you might as well form a healthy relationship to them. For example don't drive. Don't binge drink. Have some time of the week where you are not under the influence. Don't use them as a band aid or to escape anxiety.
I know it because I've taken a lot of drugs and alcohol to alter my consciousness. It is the path of befuddlement.
For you, I'm sure.
Were I you, I wouldn't be so quick to try to foist your experience on others. You cannot get into the actual experience of anyone other than yourself. Your experience only applies to you.
I've smoked a lot of pot, and while certain very powerful strains put my #### in the dirt, most strains don't leave me "befuddled" at all. Certain strains of cannabis Sativa affect me in quite the opposite way.
I've even engaged in practice while high a few times, and while I don't prefer to practice in an altered state of consciousness, I wouldn't say the experience was a waste nor necessarily unskillful.
Everyone's different. I've used my share of cocaine but never got addicted to it. My brother did. I do ok on pot and you get "befuddled". Because you can't handle something then neither can anyone else?
I'm not advocating people keeping a bong next to the cushion. I am advocating not using personal experience to try and get people to behave in a fashion I approve of.
3
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2013
Am I the only one that thinks this conversation has taken a turn to the ridiculous? Come on now...
Equating having a THC high and meditating to having delusions brought on by LSD is a leap in reason and even then, THC can be used for recreation or as an investigative tool. I'm willing to bet most of us from the "con" camp have only used it recreationally or not at all while those of us who have used it as an investigative tool are on the "pro".
Also, we seem to be mostly concentrating on the buzz but it isn't the buzz that benefits us when we use it for meditation, it's the difference in perception. As a crude example, when I was working as a trailer mechanic (rolling tarp systems) and couldn't figure out how to get at something or make something work it could get frustrating. During times like those I would use my break to smoke a joint. I know, I know just hold on... When I went back to the task at hand I was able to look at it differently and fix the problem 9 times out of 10.
Comparing to weed to pretty much any other ingestible substance is kind of silly but on the other hand we don't need it. It is much better than tobacco, alcohol and any other every day drug you can name but it's good to remember that it's a tool-like fire- that can burn us if we aren't mindful.
I prefer meditating in a sober state for the most part but strangely, I use little techniques I found while meditating high.
Perception, the lack of perception and being aware.
I have not read the whole thread, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on this. I have been very curious about cannabis, and I have wanted to try it several times. I have chosen not to do it because of my expiriences with drinking. If I get drunk, I cannot meditate the whole day after, when I then start meditating two days after drinking it feels like I have walked a step back.
I think in a buddhist-perspective meditation is like someone said here awareness, not really expirience in a sense. I think there are a lot of new-age meditation which focus on expiriencing this and that. When I meditate I strive to be in the moment, and not really attaching to any thoughts.
So, I don't think what you are doing is bad, but it depends on what you want from meditation? If you want to do buddhist-meditation I would recommend you to stop doing it, but if there are other things you want to focus on then maybe you should not worry too much about it. I want to share a video by Khandro Rinpoche speaking about this.
I have not read the whole thread, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on this. I have been very curious about cannabis, and I have wanted to try it several times. I have chosen not to do it because of my expiriences with drinking. If I get drunk, I cannot meditate the whole day after, when I then start meditating two days after drinking it feels like I have walked a step back.
Interesting. I liked the vid - thanks.
I am reminded of a story about Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. Apparently, he asked all his students to come to the meditation room and to bring their weed with them. When everyone gathered Rinpoche asked for everyone to place their weed on a large platter. He then took everyone's stash (if you will) and began throwing each bag into the fire while saying "We are burning our self deception." Or something along that line.
I guess what I take away from that is, What is wrong with ordinary mind?
In regard to alcohol - I believe Trungpa Rinpoche stated that if you drank too much and lost your mindfulness, the hangover was a grounding message.
I think perhaps the last "spiritual leader" / monk anyone, anywhere should be quoting in regards to proper (right) actions and honoring the precepts regarding drugs, alcohol and mindlessness would be Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. At least choose someone who tried to practice as he preached....
iirc, there are alleged stories of Chogyam doing drugs, alcohol and women...sex drugs and rock and roll...definitely the badsa$$ of Buddhism...and highly influential here in the West....lol
I dont want to judge, or say what is right and wrong, but personally I dont think meditaton with intoxicants or drugs is buddhist meditation. For me that is expirience based meditation where you want to gain something, buddhist meditation is about awareness/mindfulness where you want to let go and practice giving away attachements. Besides I think it is quite telling that no buddhist teacher (as far as I know) has recommended getting drunk or high when meditating, on the contrary I have mostly heard of teachers who speaks against it. Lets not forget that drugs and alcohol are attachements too. On the other hand if someone is recommended by a doctor to smoke cannabis or take benzos or other drugs like that then I would view it differently. But hey! Lets not judge each other for differences in opinion regarding this, we view things differently and that is cool.
I'm willing to bet most of us from the "con" camp have only used it recreationally or not at all while those of us who have used it as an investigative tool are on the "pro".
How much you want to bet? "Pro" people usually say that the "against" people are the people that never had any experience with it or used it just for fun, etc. I've heard that a hundred times! "Don't knock it until you tried it", etc. is what I always hear. If you really think about it, there is no real evidence to back that up other than the though "Well, if you really investigated it, you would be for it". Not exactly a reasonable idea. I would bet that a large number of the "con" people, at least in Buddhist circles, were once "pro" people themselves, who have simply realized that meditation is by far superior. For them, now it's like comparing the smell of dog shit to the smell of roses. The smell of roses is far superior to dog shit!
At the end of the day...any and all realizations must be made by that person.....No matter what religion it is...if you tell people not to do something...it makes them want to do it more. People have to find out for themselves....otherwise...it's not a realization, it's advice. You can't learn it for them. Be patient, supportive, and try not to judge. The biggest man was once a baby. The smartest man once knew very little.
But that goes both ways, just because I dont want to use cannabis/marijuana etc... Does not make my opinions less real, I dont think everyone has to try everything. Like I wrote we should all try to respect each others opinions regarding this because there is no right/wrong way eccept for the road of compassion. I dont think I have more to add to this, so I might just lurk around in this thread. i think this is an interesting discussion, it is cool to hear about peoples stories regarding this.
I think perhaps the last "spiritual leader" / monk anyone, anywhere should be quoting in regards to proper (right) actions and honoring the precepts regarding drugs, alcohol and mindlessness would be Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. At least choose someone who tried to practice as he preached....
What, exactly, did he "preach"? Do you know what he taught his students about the Precepts? How much do you really know about CTR, except that you don't approve of his lifestyle and use that to dismiss him.
iirc, there are alleged stories of Chogyam doing drugs, alcohol and women...sex drugs and rock and roll...definitely the badsa$$ of Buddhism...and highly influential here in the West....lol
Must people who knew him say CTR wasn't so much into drug use, preferring Sake. They didn't seem to affect him. There is, of course, the infamous "NO" evening, where the Vidyadhara did some acid with some of his students.
I think perhaps the last "spiritual leader" / monk anyone, anywhere should be quoting in regards to proper (right) actions and honoring the precepts regarding drugs, alcohol and mindlessness would be Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. At least choose someone who tried to practice as he preached....
CTR is certainly controversial. I have a feeling that he has been debated here ad nauseam. I apologize for opening up a can of worms.
Anyhow, just so its clear... I don't think CTR was discussing the precepts or right whatever when he said ordinary mind is preferable.
Odd though... You would think CTR of any may have taken your, more relaxed non-judgmental approach to weed, meditation and people.
I am solidly in the camp that meditation on drugs has its limits. Most of this discussion seems to be of a moralistic nature, secondhand knowledge and seemingly very little personal experience. Thus despite my better judgment…what the hell.
A bit of back ground: I have always been curious about “consciousness,” was the adoptive son of a preacher man...who was open and curious about different religions, religious experiences and psychic/consciousness phenomena. He taught me about the distinction between religious doctrine, organization and symbolic interpretation. So becoming of age in the middle 70s, having our older brother stationed in Germany… You guessed it, sex drugs and rock and roll, along with being very curious about pushing the boundaries of my consciousness. I conservatively estimate 300+ trips involving the usual suspects of LSD, lots of mushrooms (grew them), peyote and mescaline and often at substantial dosages (btw imho, each drug has a different experiential profile). I did all kinds of normal activities while trippin, e.g. going to the dentist to have fillings, driving, working, camping, sweat lodges; even did a 31 consecutive days of LSD. Towards the latter half of an eight year period I got pretty involved in Buddhism and meditation as another way to push the boundaries of my consciousness . In the end…hallucinogenic trips relative to their experiential profile were highly predictable…the same old trip..perhaps slightly different themes depending on what you want to focus on. However there were memorable trips of the death/rebirth, genetic dna evolutionary consciousness, Buddha fields, Bosch hells, processions of beings and universes and galaxies.
Iirc, 1982 or 83…a little fuzzy…lol… was in Boulder for Dead shows and a friend said we should try flotation tanks...hell ya. Ate an ounce of mushrooms, walked over to the float place and jumped in the tank for 3 hours…first time in a tank. Got my body adjusted to the new environment worked out some knots…the usual breathing meditation and mindfulness observation of phenomena…vipassana. Quickly lost my body, just consciousness floating in space, easily able to project myself around the universe, the Buddha fields, as big as the universe, as small as an electron, cartwheeling around the stars, visualize balls of light and absorb into them to check out the insight….vipassana; then focused on various Jungian archetypes….mother.
BOOM in the WOMB…back with my mother from conception to oceanic bliss floating in the womb…deeply contented, loved, no worries, no stress…just being. This was a deeply healing experience. I had been orphaned twice, apparently my birth mother died, then the first adopted mother apparently became ill or died and I was put back in the orphanage…late 50’s Korea. Thus resulting in me being fiercely independent and self-contained…i.e., emotionally detached…wild child that would not let anybody do anything for me, did what I wanted and without any real regard for others…only me. The experience was both a literal and symbolic reconnection to the world. It took me a couple of years to gain a conceptional understanding of what likely happened mainly via Stanislav Grof and transpersonal psychology. Anyway after 3 hours crawled out of the tank…seemed I’d only been in for 30 minutes (btw, time distortion is normal for floating in a tank), feeling completely normal…not the mushroom high…I should have been still trippin balls. (since then have done more float/meditation trips...without drugs).
Well 2 years later, their was no longer any interest in hallucinogens or bong hits…merely being present and dancing amongst jewels of the Buddha fields was plenty fun and interesting. It seems to me that meditation on drugs can perhaps provide quick and comprehensive access to the Buddha fields, aspras, hungry ghosts, hells, psychic phenomena and anything in the myriad of samsara and nirvana. The problem is being sucked in and seduced by the all of it and perhaps losing the ability to distinguish between samsara and nirvana and to transcend both (imho)…and continue on to remember to be a bodhisattva janitor cleaning up the crap. Anyway my final 2 cents
Comments
Drugs are not a helpful as an example to those requiring clarity or to 'aid' meditation 'for insights'. It is suffering. Shaman take drugs and to have hallucinations, to alter consciousness. Complete path of befuddlement. Great fun no doubt . . . there is a reason drugs are not helpful. Buddhism has better options and tools. @karmablues provided an excellent analysis/advice.
Remember Buddhism is about focus. Focus on what is useful . . . well that is my plan
WAIT!!! You really don't know it. You're just saying that. It reminds me of this guy over on The Big View who rips on Mahayana all the time. He'll admit he doesn't know much about Mahayana but goes on posting hateful and vitriolic messages about it anyway, but without a shread of knowledge or understanding=ding to back it up.
Idle chatter.
Pure, unmitigated nonsense, Lobster.
I'm sure there are millions of otherwise religious and non-religious people who would declare Buddhism is a complete path of 'befuddlement' as well. What with all the koans, endlessly verbose sutras, mystical stories, hundreds of deities, nothingness vs emptiness, chanting, meditating, relentlessly contemplating one's belly button lint.... etc.
But intent and context is everything. That may have been exactly why you took drugs and used alcohol - to get high, lose control, erase inhibitions (and responsibility and problems).
But that is not the reason religious people - shamans and other indigenous people far removed from 'modern' life and culture - use/d them. Their path is just as clear to them as yours is to you. You are viewing them with a bias at best, or a closed mind at worst.
I'm not a mind reader, I've just shared my experience; it counts for far more than mere opinion. Remember, I did not choose to be an alcoholic - I've yet to meet an alkie or addict who intended to be one (intention is everything right?). We drank and drugged for a whole host of reasons and the effect was 'befuddlement'; or hopeless-incomprehensible demoralisation.
If people want to drug, then drug, but please, don't try and dress it up with a Buddhist spiritual practise; it's not.
Buddhism is a practical and fast method to clear thinking. I gained insight from a variety of impacts. Drugs taught me one thing. Befuddlement. If you were more skillful or think something is useful to you - Hooray.
If you are advocating the benefits of shamanic or wiccan or wizard practices, spirit possession, spirit intoxication then . . . it is up to you to provide superior insights, that only come from such an approach. Indeed. On the whole drugs and alcohol is not skillful in Buddhism. We have behaviours for example a tendency towards an over intellectualism. We could chill with a dose of THC or we could use something more skillful and legal.
:wave:
I'm not telling anyone they SHOULD do cannabis or any drug in order to facilitate their 'religious' experiences or meditation practices - I would never do that. But it is certainly being said here, in more ways than one, that No One Should EVER do cannabis or try to facilitate their meditation in any way like that. No No. Never. Bad, bad. A fools journey!
I'm just trying to get others to be aware (and maybe admit?) that THEIR experiences are not EVERYONE's experiences. THEIR motivations are not the same motivations for EVERYONE.
Also, cultural differences can and usually do dictate one's outlook on many things- including drugs, alcohol, and yes even religion and how one practices it.
To sit here and read many of us say "You are deluded"... "drugs are always bad in all ways, all the time"... "What you experienced under the influence wasn't "real"... and other blanket statements and snap judgments and then to further criticize and 'dis' whole other cultures and religious practices not your own.... well I find that worth discussing. Why?
Well, one reason is because for more than 35 yrs I was one of those people that was the target of snap judgements, misconceptions and criticism, so I know what it's like from that side of the fence.
Open your mind, people, everything is not black and white, good and evil, yes or no. Not everyone meditates with the same goals as you, not everyone is a Buddhist practicing exactly like you, not everyone thinks exactly as you do.
Tell us your experiences, tell us why you have the opinion you have and how it stems from YOUR personal experiences.... but please stop telling everyone else their experience is invalid or corrupted, just because it didn't (or doesn't) work that way for YOU. You do your thing because it works for you; other things may work just fine for other people.
Some people can't even have one single drink and they lose control.... so do we assume EVERYONE having one drink is alcoholic? Someone smokes a huge blunt and can't move off the sofa for 2 hours.... is that the same as someone who takes two small puffs of a joint and sits down all relaxed to do meditation? Come on.....
Round and round and we still haven't gotten there yet. But I'm going to try and resist adding any more to this thread. Really, I'm trying!!
Do people using required pharmaceutical drugs stop taking them so as to insure their meditation practices are "pure" and unadulterated? You know, so that in case they have a profoundly meaningful insight or spiritual moment while meditating, they can feel confident they weren't 'tricked' by the drugs they take.... Seriously?
If people really want to know about what Buddhism says on the subject, instead of random people and their opinions. People should go to a local Buddhist temple and ask the head monk or teacher what they think about it. See what they say. Even better if a person already has a teacher. This would be a good question to ask them and see what they say. But then again, maybe people really don't care what Buddhism teaches regarding this. Which is fine. My teachers teacher would respond to that by usually saying something like "Not good, not bad". What is interesting is that he did not say it was "bad", but he did say it was "not good".
As someone said earlier, it is possible to use drugs in a variety of ways. It is even considered an error by many shaman to use them outside of a religious context. There are no hard and fast rules about these things, just general principles. As @MaryAne says, intent and context is the thing.
If we talk about this having only really experienced one side of the picture I don't see where our arguments have any validity.
Also, just saying one technique works better than another doesn't imply any moral judgment of good or bad. Like saying using one foot to work both the gas and brake while driving instead of two doesn't mean people who use two feet are bad or wicked.
What I will say, for what its worth, is that if anyone can post a quotation from any recognised Buddhist teacher from any tradition, that is positive about cannabis/marijuana/THC I will donate £100 to a charity of the posters choice.
_/\_
There's also a god of drunkenness - Bacchus - but I'm under no illusion; drinking alcohol isn't a right spiritual practise and neither is smoking dope. I wonder why they call it dope?
As for intent and context; there's more to it than just that. When I first started drinking it was fun; I did not intend to become an alcoholic - that just happened without that intention; no-one INTENDS to become an alcoholic! The Eightfold Path is something that works together; right intention is linked with right view for a very good reason.
If you think that drugs is good for you, fill yer boots, justify it anyway you like; but it still isn't Buddhism and I doubt it's a 'right view'. I kinda think that recreational drugs is a bit like drink driving. Some folk can drink drive many many times without any consequences, but eventually, if they do it often enough; they'll harms someone, including themselves.
Check it out with a reputable teacher if you're still in doubt.
From "Shamans and psychedelic drugs" by White Cranes, a Houston Shamanism Examiner:
From "Drug-free Shamanism" by Jim PathFinder Ewing, a pioneer in the study of eco spirituality, spiritual ecology and environmental shamanism:
From "My Path in Shamanism - Interview with Michael Harner". Michael Harner is widely acknowledged as the world’s foremost authority on shamanism (see his bio at link embedded above).
From "The Beauty of the Primitive" by Andrei Znamenski, Oxford University Press (2007):
Btw I did not say that drugs are good for me or anyone else. They did some good for me once upon a time. It wasn't Buddhism and it wasn't not Buddhism. It simply showed me that there are reasons to take Buddhist doctrine seriously. Pretty good result I'd say. But not a reason to keep doing it. I would never recommend it, but I believe a careful use of drugs, or even a lucky experience with them, can do a lot of good. Regardless, the downside is frighteningly dangerous, as you say.
The point about intent is that recreational drugs are not always taken for recreation. Some people smoke weed and sit around giggling with friends. Some explore their inner world in silence. In the music biz they are often taken in order to get the job done, since they can temporarily enhance various skills and senses. There is a price to pay, and that is understood. And nobody I've ever met has suggested it's a healthy option.
I must go look how soma was used in India. Not sure if it was a religious practice or the avoidance of one. Anybody know this?
Were I you, I wouldn't be so quick to try to foist your experience on others. You cannot get into the actual experience of anyone other than yourself. Your experience only applies to you.
I've smoked a lot of pot, and while certain very powerful strains put my #### in the dirt, most strains don't leave me "befuddled" at all. Certain strains of cannabis Sativa affect me in quite the opposite way.
I've even engaged in practice while high a few times, and while I don't prefer to practice in an altered state of consciousness, I wouldn't say the experience was a waste nor necessarily unskillful.
Everyone's different. I've used my share of cocaine but never got addicted to it. My brother did. I do ok on pot and you get "befuddled". Because you can't handle something then neither can anyone else?
I'm not advocating people keeping a bong next to the cushion. I am advocating not using personal experience to try and get people to behave in a fashion I approve of.
Equating having a THC high and meditating to having delusions brought on by LSD is a leap in reason and even then, THC can be used for recreation or as an investigative tool. I'm willing to bet most of us from the "con" camp have only used it recreationally or not at all while those of us who have used it as an investigative tool are on the "pro".
Also, we seem to be mostly concentrating on the buzz but it isn't the buzz that benefits us when we use it for meditation, it's the difference in perception. As a crude example, when I was working as a trailer mechanic (rolling tarp systems) and couldn't figure out how to get at something or make something work it could get frustrating. During times like those I would use my break to smoke a joint. I know, I know just hold on... When I went back to the task at hand I was able to look at it differently and fix the problem 9 times out of 10.
Comparing to weed to pretty much any other ingestible substance is kind of silly but on the other hand we don't need it. It is much better than tobacco, alcohol and any other every day drug you can name but it's good to remember that it's a tool-like fire- that can burn us if we aren't mindful.
I prefer meditating in a sober state for the most part but strangely, I use little techniques I found while meditating high.
Perception, the lack of perception and being aware.
The D.A.R.E generation comes of age....
and the wheels on the bus go round and round.
I think in a buddhist-perspective meditation is like someone said here awareness, not really expirience in a sense. I think there are a lot of new-age meditation which focus on expiriencing this and that. When I meditate I strive to be in the moment, and not really attaching to any thoughts.
So, I don't think what you are doing is bad, but it depends on what you want from meditation? If you want to do buddhist-meditation I would recommend you to stop doing it, but if there are other things you want to focus on then maybe you should not worry too much about it. I want to share a video by Khandro Rinpoche speaking about this.
I am reminded of a story about Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. Apparently, he asked all his students to come to the meditation room and to bring their weed with them. When everyone gathered Rinpoche asked for everyone to place their weed on a large platter. He then took everyone's stash (if you will) and began throwing each bag into the fire while saying "We are burning our self deception." Or something along that line.
I guess what I take away from that is, What is wrong with ordinary mind?
In regard to alcohol - I believe Trungpa Rinpoche stated that if you drank too much and lost your mindfulness, the hangover was a grounding message.
At least choose someone who tried to practice as he preached....
by that person.....No matter what religion it is...if you tell people
not to do something...it makes them want to do it
more. People have to find out for themselves....otherwise...it's not a
realization, it's advice. You can't learn it for them. Be patient, supportive,
and try not to judge. The biggest man was once a baby. The smartest man
once knew very little.
Anyhow, just so its clear... I don't think CTR was discussing the precepts or right whatever when he said ordinary mind is preferable.
Odd though... You would think CTR of any may have taken your, more relaxed non-judgmental approach to weed, meditation and people.
Good luck!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Precepts Slightly stoned or intoxicated before meditating?
Meditate in the morning. :om:
now....hahaha...
Not stoned or intoxicated?
Excellent!
Party on, Wayne..... party on, Garth!
Edit: Show of hands of who DOES NOT know the
precepts....lobster...your favorite saying...
'oh, the humanity'
I am solidly in the camp that meditation on drugs has its limits. Most of this discussion seems to be of a moralistic nature, secondhand knowledge and seemingly very little personal experience. Thus despite my better judgment…what the hell.
A bit of back ground: I have always been curious about “consciousness,” was the adoptive son of a preacher man...who was open and curious about different religions, religious experiences and psychic/consciousness phenomena. He taught me about the distinction between religious doctrine, organization and symbolic interpretation. So becoming of age in the middle 70s, having our older brother stationed in Germany… You guessed it, sex drugs and rock and roll, along with being very curious about pushing the boundaries of my consciousness. I conservatively estimate 300+ trips involving the usual suspects of LSD, lots of mushrooms (grew them), peyote and mescaline and often at substantial dosages (btw imho, each drug has a different experiential profile). I did all kinds of normal activities while trippin, e.g. going to the dentist to have fillings, driving, working, camping, sweat lodges; even did a 31 consecutive days of LSD. Towards the latter half of an eight year period I got pretty involved in Buddhism and meditation as another way to push the boundaries of my consciousness . In the end…hallucinogenic trips relative to their experiential profile were highly predictable…the same old trip..perhaps slightly different themes depending on what you want to focus on. However there were memorable trips of the death/rebirth, genetic dna evolutionary consciousness, Buddha fields, Bosch hells, processions of beings and universes and galaxies.
Iirc, 1982 or 83…a little fuzzy…lol… was in Boulder for Dead shows and a friend said we should try flotation tanks...hell ya. Ate an ounce of mushrooms, walked over to the float place and jumped in the tank for 3 hours…first time in a tank. Got my body adjusted to the new environment worked out some knots…the usual breathing meditation and mindfulness observation of phenomena…vipassana. Quickly lost my body, just consciousness floating in space, easily able to project myself around the universe, the Buddha fields, as big as the universe, as small as an electron, cartwheeling around the stars, visualize balls of light and absorb into them to check out the insight….vipassana; then focused on various Jungian archetypes….mother.
BOOM in the WOMB…back with my mother from conception to oceanic bliss floating in the womb…deeply contented, loved, no worries, no stress…just being. This was a deeply healing experience. I had been orphaned twice, apparently my birth mother died, then the first adopted mother apparently became ill or died and I was put back in the orphanage…late 50’s Korea. Thus resulting in me being fiercely independent and self-contained…i.e., emotionally detached…wild child that would not let anybody do anything for me, did what I wanted and without any real regard for others…only me. The experience was both a literal and symbolic reconnection to the world. It took me a couple of years to gain a conceptional understanding of what likely happened mainly via Stanislav Grof and transpersonal psychology. Anyway after 3 hours crawled out of the tank…seemed I’d only been in for 30 minutes (btw, time distortion is normal for floating in a tank), feeling completely normal…not the mushroom high…I should have been still trippin balls. (since then have done more float/meditation trips...without drugs).
Well 2 years later, their was no longer any interest in hallucinogens or bong hits…merely being present and dancing amongst jewels of the Buddha fields was plenty fun and interesting. It seems to me that meditation on drugs can perhaps provide quick and comprehensive access to the Buddha fields, aspras, hungry ghosts, hells, psychic phenomena and anything in the myriad of samsara and nirvana. The problem is being sucked in and seduced by the all of it and perhaps losing the ability to distinguish between samsara and nirvana and to transcend both (imho)…and continue on to remember to be a bodhisattva janitor cleaning up the crap.
Anyway my final 2 cents
Turn on your lovelight