I am really torn on this; don't kill me because it's veg. related *ducks and runs*

Jainarayan

I know there are probably a brazillian veg. threads, but as everyone thinks about themselves, this is unique. :nyah:

I truly do want to go vegetarian for ethical reasons. I'm particularly struck by the Dhammapada 10.131-132: "He who seeking his own happiness punishes or kills beings who also long for happiness, will not find happiness after death. He who seeking his own happiness does not punish or kill beings who also long for happiness, will find happiness after death." Not because I'm afraid of the afterlife... I mean, I've already got so much de-merit and bad karma points I'm going to probably be re-born as an artichoke (globe, as we discussed in another thread ).

It's the "beings who also long for happiness" part that stabs me in the heart. So why is it so hard for me to become vegetarian? Well, I am non-celiac gluten intolerant, so wheat products are out... no pasta or bread; oats are iffy. I am insulin resistant, so other carb products are out... no rice, lentils, beans (the vegetarian's staples). I have Metabolic Syndrome. I have no problem with eating eggs because they are not alive (unfertilized cage-free). About the only diet that keeps my weight down is a primal/paleo... meat (mammals, fish, birds but no reptiles blech!), leaves (vegs. of all kinds) and berries (non-sugary fruits). I could avoid mammals, but birds and fish have feelings too.

Can I live on a purely lacto-ovo diet... yogurt, milk, cheese, eggs, vegs.? Has anyone done it? I've tried it and it lasted about 3 days. Maybe I didn't put my back into it. Now, I know that ahimsa applies to ourselves also, and it's not the Middle Way (if I understand correctly) to put one's health in jeopardy for the sake of beliefs.

Ah what to do!? what to do!? :scratch:

Florian

A tough problem. It might cheer you up to know that HHDL has noted, in answer to criticism, that vegetarianism is not a realistic option if you live on the Tibetan plateau. Maybe it's not a realistic option for you.

Jainarayan

Yes, I think of HHDL's comments and living on the Tibetan plateau. And sometimes I wonder if this is the fruits of my karma, i.e. that proverbial "cross to bear".

karasti

Health issues, I think, pretty much exempt someone. There is no good if you are unhealthy simply for not eating meat. You have to do what truly works and keeps you healthy. If you eat a lot of vegetables (and some of the less carby fruit, like berries) you can probably get enough protein from eggs and dairy. But you would need a wide variety of veggies to do so (I LOVE artichokes by the way...lol). I have one son who has a lot of sensory problems with many foods and another son who is a type 1 diabetic, so I can relate to your problems.

I try to evaluate for our family and be honest with myself about how much we can do without throwing away other beings lives. So we do eat meat, but we are cautious about where it comes from as much as possible for where we live. We buy what we can from local farms where we know the owners and can see the place and how the animals live. We never eat meat without a reverence for the life taken, that's always been important to me even as a small child.

The bottom line to me is, being vegetarian or vegan is a wonderful thing to do-if you can. Not everyone can, despite the constant stream of "there is no reason you have to eat meat in today's age" that runs through this board. That is NOT true. I'm glad for people that don't have to live with health concerns where diet comes into play as much. But for a lot of people it does come into play. What works for one person does not always work for another person.

We have reduced our meat intake, myself especially both for ethical and health reasons. But eliminating it is not a possibility for our family. Splitting our meals entirely is not possible, either. So, with 5 of us in our family and a strict grocery budget, we do what we can. That's all any of us can do. Don't let your health suffer over it.

Oh, also if it works for your diet, raw nuts are a good source of healthy fats and protein. I find I can get buy eating meat only 2-3 days a week. My eldest, the one with the sensory problems, needs about 3500 calories a day and getting that in spinach and nuts just doesn't work. So he eats a lot of eggs, and he eats meat pretty much daily. It's the only way he can stay healthy.

federica

@Jainarayan, it is truly commendable that you show a willingness for complete compassion for other creatures.
you're forgetting though, compassion in one direction: Towards yourself.

you have a specific condition.
This condition dictates that you have to follow a certain regime to be well.
Be compassionate for the being you are; you cannot help what you have been born with, or developed. You CAN help how to deal with it.
And if this is how you must, then do so.

Remember the Buddha resorted to extreme measures in an effort to attain Enlightenment, and rapidly discovered the notion to be absurd.

Self-deprivation in order to be more "holy" is all very well, providing it's not idiotic.

You must do what you must do.

Offerings and mantras may assist in making you feel more compassionate and grateful to the animals you consume.

But don't beat yourself up over the head about it.

it is what it is.
Your obligation, now (for want of a better word!) is to generate positive kamma in other ways. Maybe volunteer at an animal shelter, or donate to animal sanctuaries....

but don't be hard on yourself.

Dandelion

What use are you going to be to your buddhist path in all the other areas if you don't eat what your particular body needs in this incarnation in order to stay healthy? I agree with @federica and please don't make yourself poorly, that's not what buddhism is about.

Jainarayan

@karasti and @federica Thanks for the perspectives. See, it's often hard to see the forest for the trees.

"Self-deprivation in order to be more "holy" is all very well, providing it's not idiotic." I'm sorry, that truly made me laugh (which I needed for a few reasons)... I think it's the word 'idiotic', it has a humorous ring to it.

As I said, I can limit myself to chicken and fish; I'm not altogether wild about other meat. I think if I don't overthink it, and don't fear it :hair: and just do what I think is right, it should be OK.

Btw, before the edit time expires... I forgot to mention that I do recite the om abhirikay tsara hung 7 times when I eat meat.

Jainarayan

Dandelion said:

What use are you going to be to your buddhist path in all the other areas if you don't eat what your particular body needs in this incarnation in order to stay healthy? I agree with @federica and please don't make yourself poorly, that's not what buddhism is about.

Thanks, you're right... I'd be no good to anyone or anything. Except lining the doctors' pockets. :rolleyes:

Jainarayan

Btw, thanks for moving this to Diet & Habits. I start threads in Buddhism for Beginners by default and forget to specify another one.

federica

Jainarayan said:

Btw, thanks for moving this to Diet & Habits. I start threads in Buddhism for Beginners by default and forget to specify another one.

I nearly banned you for that.
from the country.

Jainarayan

riverflow

Jainarayan said:

As I said, I can limit myself to chicken and fish; I'm not altogether wild about other meat. I think if I don't overthink it, and don't fear it :hair: and just do what I think is right, it should be OK.

You have to integrate the precepts in a way that works in your own unique and individual practice. The precepts don't work like one-size-fits-all absolutes. No one can follow the precepts in any absolute sense, after all.

So, considering your physical limitations, you don't need to frame it in terms of all-or-nothing. With your good intention, you can still take a step in the right direction by having a sense of gratitude and awareness in what you eat, and taking steps to at least reduce how much meat you do eat.

Jainarayan

Mindfulness. And there are certainly days that can be strictly lacto-ovo with no meat at all.

seeker242

You could always try to consult with a vegetarian nutritionist if you can. They could probably tell you exactly what you could and could not do with the particular limitations that you experience. After all, that's their job. Probably would cost some money. But even if you can't afford it right now, I think it would be something worth saving up for as once you have that knowledge about your particular situation, you probably won't ever forget it.

maarten

It seems some people with metabolism disorders have benefited a lot from doing yoga (under guidance of a qualified teacher, of course), have you looked into that?

http://www.yogajournal.com/health/2527

zombiegirl

I echo the opinions above me that you need to take care of yourself first and foremost. But I also believe that if everyone could do what they felt that they could do, the world could be changed for the better. Maybe for you, that could mean putting effort into only buying cruelty-free/organic/free-range meats. I know that these titles can sometimes be vague and poorly regulated, but hey, it's got to be at least a little better. And there's nothing wrong with being informed! Perhaps like @karasti you can find a local farm to buy your meats.

Personally, I didn't have the drive to commit myself to this sort of regulation (because these higher quality meats CAN be hard to find when you consider restaurants and the like) and felt it better to just cut it out altogether. After you stop eating meat for a while, if you try to cheat, you are basically trading meat for horrible stomach cramping as your body has stopped producing the enzymes needed to break down meat (at least, that's my case). But unsurprisingly, horrible stomach cramping is a pretty good deterrent against "cheating" even if I wanted to. Heh.

ThinGentlement

@Jainarayan - my wife is coeliac and, as if that wasn't enough, is (perpetually) struggling to recover from a generalised eating disorder, plus my son has had to see a psychologist about his eating disorder. I would like to go veggie myself, but it's simply not realistic - in our family it's hard enough putting together a meal everyone can eat, let alone everyone wants to eat! :eek2: Making it meat free just isn't going to happen.

So, I am content to choose veggie options when I eat out, or when I'm dining alone at home. The rest of time I just try to fit in, otherwise mealtimes would be twice the hell they already are. I feel happy with that. It's the best I can do.

In your situation, I echo the excellent advice above, choose good quality meat - I always go for the most expensive options I can, with trusted branding/origins, e.g. RSPCA Freedom Food plus various supermarket brands to indicate most favourable living conditions etc. It's not perfect, but it's got to be better than buying the cheapest value versions eh?

Eat a good balanced diet, and look after yourself.

Jainarayan

seeker242 said:

You could always try to consult with a vegetarian nutritionist if you can. They could probably tell you exactly what you could and could not do with the particular limitations that you experience. After all, that's their job. Probably would cost some money. But even if you can't afford it right now, I think it would be something worth saving up for as once you have that knowledge about your particular situation, you probably won't ever forget it.

That's an option and a thought. My insurance might cover it if it's classified the way they like it. If they don't cover it, I might just need some short term guidance.

Jainarayan

maarten said:

It seems some people with metabolism disorders have benefited a lot from doing yoga (under guidance of a qualified teacher, of course), have you looked into that?

http://www.yogajournal.com/health/2527

Oh boy have I been trying! I've been looking for yoga instructors in my area high and low. You'd think I lived on Mars. There is one who does a once a week class for a reasonable fee. I'll read that link. Thanks.

Jainarayan

zombiegirl said:

I echo the opinions above me that you need to take care of yourself first and foremost. But I also believe that if everyone could do what they felt that they could do, the world could be changed for the better. Maybe for you, that could mean putting effort into only buying cruelty-free/organic/free-range meats. I know that these titles can sometimes be vague and poorly regulated, but hey, it's got to be at least a little better. And there's nothing wrong with being informed! Perhaps like @karasti you can find a local farm to buy your meats.

Personally, I didn't have the drive to commit myself to this sort of regulation (because these higher quality meats CAN be hard to find when you consider restaurants and the like) and felt it better to just cut it out altogether. After you stop eating meat for a while, if you try to cheat, you are basically trading meat for horrible stomach cramping as your body has stopped producing the enzymes needed to break down meat (at least, that's my case). But unsurprisingly, horrible stomach cramping is a pretty good deterrent against "cheating" even if I wanted to. Heh.

I agree completely with all of this. I haven't yet tried to find meat raised and dispatched more humanely, but it's something to now look into. I started by buying only cage free eggs. OK, they're still mass raised, but at least they're not in those cramped cages. I can look for free-range. I don't eat out except for my work cafeteria, where I can get Muscle Milk shakes and salads. Unfortunately you can't know where the eggs and meat come from. In that case, you bring your own food. I'm even curtailing my weekends at the diner for my omelette.

Like I said, I don't particularly care for mammal meat. I have not had beef in probably two years (the "sacred cow thing" ), and quite honestly, when I see a commercial for Longhorn Steakhouse or something like that, it turns my stomach. So I have no problem with avoiding four-legged meat. What's left to me is feathers and fins as a non-carb food source, besides vegs. of course.

Jainarayan

ThinGentlement said:

@Jainarayan - my wife is coeliac and, as if that wasn't enough, is (perpetually) struggling to recover from a generalised eating disorder, plus my son has had to see a psychologist about his eating disorder. I would like to go veggie myself, but it's simply not realistic - in our family it's hard enough putting together a meal everyone can eat, let alone everyone wants to eat! :eek2: Making it meat free just isn't going to happen.

So, I am content to choose veggie options when I eat out, or when I'm dining alone at home. The rest of time I just try to fit in, otherwise mealtimes would be twice the hell they already are. I feel happy with that. It's the best I can do.

In your situation, I echo the excellent advice above, choose good quality meat - I always go for the most expensive options I can, with trusted branding/origins, e.g. RSPCA Freedom Food plus various supermarket brands to indicate most favourable living conditions etc. It's not perfect, but it's got to be better than buying the cheapest value versions eh?

Eat a good balanced diet, and look after yourself.

Wow, you got your hands full too. My doc ran a celiac test, which of course came up negative. I say "of course" because you know why... it's damn near impossible to diagnose except for the symptoms. Need I go into it? The bloating, cramping, sharts, mud butt. :zombie:

I can do some tofu occasionally, but being hypothyroid... oh yeah, did I mention that? :rolleyes: and being on thyroid replacement too much soy is contraindicated. I'm a mess. :grumble:

ThinGentlement

Jainarayan said:

Wow, you got your hands full too.

Oh yeah. Food is always a fraught subject in our household. It's rather odd really, everyone else just seems to get on and enjoy food, we just stress about it!

If you can get it on your insurance, the most reliable test for Coeliac will be having the Endoscopy to take biopsies. It's really no fun, but you will at least know exactly where you are afterwards. Your symptoms sound very much like my wife's. I sympathise deeply, I know how it can completely take over your life.

Bummer with having the soy problems on top of all that. My wife would understand, she might well be intolerant to some or all fruit juices too. So, she could probably write down what she can eat freely on a piece of paper the size of a single stamp with room for some doodling too.

Dakini

Jainarayan said:

It's the "beings who also long for happiness" part that stabs me in the heart. So why is it so hard for me to become vegetarian? Well, I am non-celiac gluten intolerant, so wheat products are out... no pasta or bread; oats are iffy. I am insulin resistant, so other carb products are out... no rice, lentils, beans (the vegetarian's staples). I have Metabolic Syndrome. I have no problem with eating eggs because they are not alive (unfertilized cage-free). About the only diet that keeps my weight down is a primal/paleo... meat (mammals, fish, birds but no reptiles blech!), leaves (vegs. of all kinds) and berries (non-sugary fruits). I could avoid mammals, but birds and fish have feelings too.

Can I live on a purely lacto-ovo diet... yogurt, milk, cheese, eggs, vegs.? Has anyone done it? I've tried it and it lasted about 3 days. Maybe I didn't put my back into it. Now, I know that ahimsa applies to ourselves also, and it's not the Middle Way (if I understand correctly) to put one's health in jeopardy for the sake of beliefs.

OP, I'm more or less in your same boat. The thyroid, too. I think we should do what we need to do to keep our bodies healthy. If for you, that means paleo and lacto, go for it! Nearly all Inner Asian Buddhists eat meat. They come from herding cultures. They don't worry about it. The Dalai Lama's parents routinely slaughtered their animals to feed the family. His oldest brother took rifles along on an expedition from their home to Lhasa (a journey of several months), to hunt wild game on the way, to feed the members of the group. There's no hard-and-fast rule here. That's wonderful that you feel compassion for living things. But you need to take care of yourself.

You need to stay healthy, so you can be of more benefit to sentient beings in your life. That's the greater good. BTW, I haven't heard that soy blocks thyroid. Cruciferous veggies do that. Just don't eat them to excess. Some red cabbage (broccoli, whatever) in your salad a few times/week isn't going to cause a problem.

lamaramadingdong

Talk to a dietician and explain what you'd like to accomplish with your diet.

Jainarayan

Dakini said:

Nearly all Inner Asian Buddhists eat meat. They come from herding cultures. They don't worry about it. The Dalai Lama's parents routinely slaughtered their animals to feed the family. His oldest brother took rifles along on an expedition from their home to Lhasa (a journey of several months), to hunt wild game on the way, to feed the members of the group. There's no hard-and-fast rule here. That's wonderful that you feel compassion for living things. But you need to take care of yourself.

Sometimes I think that in a past life I was a hunter-gatherer. The nomadic, pastoral life appeals to me. Of course it could be an escapist fantasy.

You need to stay healthy, so you can be of more benefit to sentient beings in your life. That's the greater good. BTW, I haven't heard that soy blocks thyroid. Cruciferous veggies do that. Just don't eat them to excess. Some red cabbage (broccoli, whatever) in your salad a few times/week isn't going to cause a problem.

Yeah, what soy does is binds with thyroid hormones. Euthyroid people can compensate because the thyroid works fine and regulates its output. But for those of us who rely on a set dosage, we can't compensate. For those who regularly use soy an adjustment upwards of the med. may be needed. I don't shun it, I just don't go overboard with it. Check the about.com thyroid section. The guide is an author and extremely knowledgeable. The site is a wealth of information.

Jainarayan

lamaramadingdong said:

Talk to a dietician and explain what you'd like to accomplish with your diet.

I may ask my physiotherapist (back and shoulder surgeries) for a recommendation. My MD is good, but you know MDs and nutrition. :rolleyes:

JoyfulGirl

Lets not forget about INTENTION, you do not want to kill. On the other hand it is hard for you to live on a strict vegetarian diet. I who have basically no allergies, I am lactose-intollerant and don't feel good eating too much white bread struggle to to become vegetarian. My suggestion is to start slow. Cut out meats on mondays, eat only one meat-meal a day, include lots of veggies so that only 1/3 of your plate is meat. Try not to eat read meat, as that is what is contaminating worst. Maybe try to restrict yourself to fish and chicken.

robot

Eat wild caught fish.
http://thisfish.info/about/what/

Jainarayan

I much prefer wild caught fish, especially salmon. I believe it also supports those doing a very tough job. Maybe not "right livelihood", but we're taking the Middle Way here, on several levels.

JoyfulGirl

I am torn with the fish-thing, I can't stop eating fish because it is so healthy for us. I don't know any source of omega 3 as powerful as the fish.

Jainarayan

@JoyfulGirl I was told, but I can't vouch for the veracity, that flax seed is just as good. I don't know about that either. Moreover, the Japanese who are overwhelmingly Shinto (at least nominally) have relied on seafood for centuries.

karasti

hemp and chia seeds both have omega 3 in them as well. Chia seeds, 1.5-2 tablespoons has 3 grams, and it has the proper balance of Omega 3 to omega 6. We typically have too much omega 6, which then affects our omega 3. Hemp seeds are very similar but tend to be more expensive than chia seeds. You can toss them in a salad or a smoothie and be good to go.

Arthurbodhi

JoyfulGirl said:

I am torn with the fish-thing, I can't stop eating fish because it is so healthy for us.

Actually it was healthy, sadly also its could be a risk now. The consumption of fish is by far the most significant source of ingestion-related mercury exposure in humans and animals.

Certain seafood might contain levels of mercury that may cause harm to an unborn baby (and especially its brain development and nervous system). In a young child, high levels of mercury can interfere with the development of the nervous system.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57563739/study-finds-unsafe-mercury-levels-in-84-percent-of-all-fish/

http://water.epa.gov/scitech/swguidance/fishshellfish/outreach/advice_index.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_in_fish

Jeffrey

I acknowledge ^^^ but it has been found that women in areas with a lot of fish consumption have less chance to have a child that develops bipolar disorder. Also people who already have BPD have statistically better trajectory of their illness for those who take fish oil supplements relative to those don't. That's based on a study at Harvard.

karasti

Proper nutrition and balanced of micronutrients, vitamins, minerals, etc. can prevent a whole HOST of things, and can directly impact whether our genes are "turned on" to certain illnesses or not. Women can impact that while they are pregnant but a person can impact it with their diet later, too. Fish can definitely be good for you but most people should be limiting their consumption to 1-2 times a week (say, a slab of salmon and a tuna salad sandwich). Walnuts are another good source of healthy fats.

Arthurbodhi

Jeffrey said:

I acknowledge ^^^ but it has been found that women in areas with a lot of fish consumption have less chance to have a child that develops bipolar disorder. Also people who already have BPD have statistically better trajectory of their illness for those who take fish oil supplements relative to those don't. That's based on a study at Harvard.

Yes, but this don't counteracts one another, Bipolar disorder is way different that mercury poisoning (my sister have Bipolar disorder by the way). And the EPA is enphatic in recommend to not eat to much sea food to pregnant woman and to young children. Remember also that this is an issue that is increasing with the pass of time like the same Hardvard is warning in the article that follow:

https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2013/07/harvard-researchers-warn-legacy-mercury-environment

oceancaldera207

That's rough with the gluten intolerance. I personally use lots of soy isolate supplements and some whey and casein as well. protein supplements really help regulate blood sugar spikes, so it helps with the whey thing. I'm a big fan of nuts, legumes, mushrooms, chia, flax, cheese and yogurts, occasionally eggs. I often use them in conjunction with frozen veggie "meat " products to make meals that are balanced.. textured veg patties and stuff like that are starting to appear in many varieties .
I try to eat in such a way that carbs fat and protein are balanced, and I have a ballpark idea of my calorie intake. And this can still be done with veg diet, if you start reading labels and research.

Believe it or not, there is are a lot of meat free alternatives... So much so that you really won't feel deprived once you get a good menu going. I know I know, I didn't believe it either. You have a challenge there with the wheat intolerance, but I think it can still be done.

Honestly, I wouldn't kill yourself over it, but really look for alternatives if its something you want to do. I too wanted to stop eating meat completely for a long time before I did.. and really when I did I actually found it to be a major relief. It really was weighing heavily on my conscience...more than I realized. If youcan do it without having major issues, you should. If you're not wanting to eat meat because of compassion, then its probably time. Pm me if you want a few tips or want to talk.. nutrition is a pet hobby of mine.

oceancaldera207

Basically, a veg diet will probably add some carbs, but its nothing you cant mitigate with more frequent , balanced meals with healthy fats and protein to slow carbohydrate absorption .

Citta

Zen teacher Gary Snyder ;
' In a universe where everything eventually eats everything else one way or another, vegetarianism is splitting hairs '

seeker242

I don't recall Gary Snyder ever receiving dharma transmission from anyone. Although I could be mistaken.

cvalue

You can imitate Buddist monks in some monasteries. They eat only one meal a day at midday. And their meal may include meat.

The Buddha did not advise his followers to abstain from eating meat. He was aware that prohibition would make it difficult for people in certain cultures to survive as Buddhists. For example, for an Eskimo the only food available might be meat or fish. On such matters, Buddha left the choice up to the individual.

Jainarayan

I can easily do some meatless days too. I guess it doesn't have to be all-or-nothing.

oceancaldera207

Zen teacher Gary
' Ina u niverse where everything eventually eats everything else one way or another, vegetarianism is splitting hairs '

...That's... Wow.
Humans, being unique, most certainly have a choice as to their diet, especially in this day age. Who ever said that is missing the point. We have a choice as people: 'should I be selfish in life or should I be generous. Should I be kind or cruel to others. Should I needlessly rely on flesh of suffering creatures or not. '
My advice, if it is compassion for animals that is making you want to stop eating meat, then stop. Find a way. You will feel loads better. When I finally did, I couldn't believe the relief it was...and it wasn't that difficult, and I don't feel deprived. It didn't affect my weight room endeavors either.
ps I grew up on a small farm, and hunted as a youth. apoligize for typos, problems with the mobile


:banghead:

Gui

When you eat anything, you are eating everything.
We should, IMO, relax.

zenff

Citta said:

Zen teacher Gary Snyder ;
' In a universe where everything eventually eats everything else one way or another, vegetarianism is splitting hairs '

I will cook and eat my children then.

oceancaldera207

The Buddha did not advise his followers to abstain from eating meat. He was aware that prohibition would make it difficult for people in certain cultures to survive as Buddhists. For example, for an also mo the only food available might be meat or fish. On such matteI ds, Buddha left the choice up to the individual.

The paranirvana sutra says that basically the rules of morality around eating meat are too numerous and complicated to even talk about. Given the sutra context I took it to mean, 'don't if you can avoid it, but dont be militant about it. Thing is , (I can definitely avoid it.) If you eat meat, you're not gonna burn in hell. in my pernsonal life very few even know that i dont. but I can't say enough how good it feels not to. Sorrry again typos, every time it autosaves it puts my cursor somewhere else

Citta

zenff said:

Citta said:

Zen teacher Gary Snyder ;
' In a universe where everything eventually eats everything else one way or another, vegetarianism is splitting hairs '

I will cook and eat my children then.

The operant bit is ' eventually' and ' one way or another '..I wouldn't rush the matter. It wouldn't be seemly.

oceancaldera207

I guess somebody should say here, if you can't give up meat, don't let that stop you from practicing Buddhism. Always good to remember

Jeffrey

I eat meat because I am sharing a meal with a non-vegetarian. In some ways it's a cop-out because I could eat separately a substitute for protein. Like have a veggie burger, but it is more simple to just eat the same thing.

zombiegirl

@Jeffrey It's not as hard as you think. There are a lot of dishes that are easy to make vegetarian with a meat option/with the meat cooked on the side and added in later. My partner and I have been doing it for years. I think this is more an issue of a mental adjustment. A lot of people are raised to design a meal around a meat and if all you have planned for dinner is "a steak" then yeah, you might have an issue, lol.

If you're concerned about protein, I also invite you to check out some diet apps for your phone to chart your food intake. MyFitnessPal (free on androids) was one I was quite fond of that made it super easy to track your intake of protein and other essential nutrients. It even has a barcode scanner for easy input. You'd be surprised how easy protein is to get. I charted it for a while because everyone was always saying, "But how will you get your protein!? How will you get your protein!?" But after I actually kept track of it for a while, I realized what a non-issue it was for me. Also remember that in the right combination, your body can actually combine amino acids to create complete proteins.

Citta

oceancaldera207 said:

I guess somebody should say here, if you can't give up meat, don't let that stop you from practicing Buddhism. Always good to remember

Vital. As is the idea that it is not up to us to tell others what to have for lunch.
Vegetarianism is an optional matter for Buddhists.

Veganism ? Well lets not go there...