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I am really torn on this; don't kill me because it's veg. related *ducks and runs*

2

Comments

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Some of it depends on what you do in your life, too. There are a lot of different types of protein that do not react the same in your body. Whey is not the same as casein, for example, in how your body uses and processes it. Much of the protein begotten from dairy is wasted because the body cannot use it properly. I eat a lot of protein because I lift weights. Almost 100 grams a day. It's hard to get that much without eating meat or fish or legumes or even including dairy, which I can't eat much of.

    It's certainly *possible* for people who desire to be vegetarian to do so but it is not always doable for an individual depending on their life circumstances: money, family members, availability and so on. There are professional athletes that are vegan and vegetarian. So it's doable. Probably much more so when you have millions of dollars to spend and team chefs who provide for you, lol. If it's important to someone, then they should make every attempt to do it, if they can. Or at least make changes in the right direction. You can eat less meat. You can eat meat from sources that are not factory farms. You can simply increase your intake of fresh veggies and you'll notice automatically that you eat less of other things. During garden season I have to work to get enough protein because I eat so much fresh produce!
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Citta said:

    I guess somebody should say here, if you can't give up meat, don't let that stop you from practicing Buddhism. Always good to remember

    Vital. As is the idea that it is not up to us to tell others what to have for lunch.
    Vegetarianism is an optional matter for Buddhists.

    Veganism ? Well lets not go there...
    Not murdering, not lying and not stealing is optional too! :lol:

    Veganism = Ahimsa. Everyone should be going there. ;)
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited August 2013
    No... murdering, lying, and stealing are not an option. What one has for lunch is.
    Unless you belong to one of the Chinese Sanghas that insist on vegetarianism.
    Fact.
    vinlyn
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited August 2013
    Thank you, Citta.

    I'm going to point out again that -- at least according to the vast majority of Theravada monks in Thailand -- that eating meat is not a significant issue. They virtually all do. Some here have said it's because the monks don't want to offend the general public who gives them their food. Sheer nonsense. If the Supreme Sangha of Thailand politely told the Thai public that it was issue, the Thai public would easily modify their giving habits. In fact, meat (as compared to fruit and vegetables) in Thailand is so expensive, that the people who donate food to monks would be saving a great deal of money by switching their food donations to non-meat meals for monks. Furthermore, the monkhood in Thailand has had no problem reminding the locals of other rules dealing with the interaction of the public with monks -- for example, that females cannot touch a monk or that (in certain temples) the public may not take photographs. And, monks often preach to the laity and otherwise tell them what to do in one-on-one meetings.

    If eating meat is good enough for the monkhood of Thailand...and Buddha...then it's good enough for me.

    Having said that, I have reduced my consumption of meat. I rarely eat a meat lunch now, and most weeks have at one meat-free dinner.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    So do about 99.9 % of Vajrayana nuns, monks and lay people @vinlyn. Even those in exile who do have a choice.
    In many Tibetan Pujas eating meat in actually mandatory. You would be in breach of samaya ( the contract with your guru ) to refuse it.
    vinlyn
  • karasti said:

    Some of it depends on what you do in your life, too. There are a lot of different types of protein that do not react the same in your body. Whey is not the same as casein, for example, in how your body uses and processes it. Much of the protein begotten from dairy is wasted because the body cannot use it properly. I eat a lot of protein because I lift weights. Almost 100 grams a day. It's hard to get that much without eating meat or fish or legumes or even including dairy, which I can't eat much of. [/quote]

    Ah! Another musclehead! :D I don't know if I mentioned that I've been lifting weights for about 20 years, most of that time powerlifting style. At an overweight 202 lbs and 25% body fat :grumble: I shoot for about 120-150 g of protein (.8 g/ lb of lbm).

    I haven't been eating a lot of mammal flesh lately. It's mostly feathers and fins; whey protein; eggs; cottage cheese and yogurt.

    It's certainly *possible* for people who desire to be vegetarian to do so but it is not always doable for an individual depending on their life circumstances: money, family members, availability and so on. There are professional athletes that are vegan and vegetarian. So it's doable.
    Bill Pearl. ;)
    You can eat less meat. You can eat meat from sources that are not factory farms. You can simply increase your intake of fresh veggies and you'll notice automatically that you eat less of other things. During garden season I have to work to get enough protein because I eat so much fresh produce!
    I'm back on a cutting diet, because my powerlifting days are over, lumbar and rotator cuff surgery (ironically, not from the gym).
  • This is all very interesting. Thanks for all the perspectives. :)

    Here's a question that may or may not trigger a runaway nuclear reaction...

    For those of you who do eat meat, or know people who eat meat, do you/they avoid beef as meat-eating Hindus do? I never knew if the cow thing was an issue in Buddhism. Personally I think (and here goes the firing mechanism) that it's blown out of proportion because it's not the cow (gomata, mother cow) that is slaughtered for human consumption, but steers.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    This is all very interesting. Thanks for all the perspectives. :)

    Here's a question that may or may not trigger a runaway nuclear reaction...

    For those of you who do eat meat, or know people who eat meat, do you/they avoid beef as meat-eating Hindus do? I never knew if the cow thing was an issue in Buddhism. Personally I think (and here goes the firing mechanism) that it's blown out of proportion because it's not the cow (gomata, mother cow) that is slaughtered for human consumption, but steers.

    In Thailand people are less likely to eat beef than chicken, pork, seafood, but my understanding is that it is due to the cost. There are many Thai beef dishes, however.

  • I forgot about Thai food. I think Chinese cuisine is not big on beef either mostly because beef is far more expensive pasture-wise to raise than pigs, ducks or chickens. Beef is costly to raise.
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    vinlyn said:



    If eating meat is good enough for the monkhood of Thailand...and Buddha...then it's good enough for me.

    Having said that, I have reduced my consumption of meat. I rarely eat a meat lunch now, and most weeks have at one meat-free dinner.

    Not everyone who is a Buddhist is a vegetarian because they believe Buddhists ought to be... as if it's just another rule to follow. Personally, I've just learned far too much about the meat industry and I cannot unsee what I've seen. If as Buddhists, we are supposed to avoid causing suffering to other sentient beings as much as possible, then it only seems natural that I would do my best to avoid meat and therefore avoid contributing to the horrific conditions that have become the meat industry in America. It's not because I feel like vegetarianism is a rule, it's because what I've learned from Buddhism has brought me to that understanding.

    As I've mentioned before, I also support people who try and get their meat from cruelty-free sources. Although I do not take advantage of it, one benefit to living in the Detroit-metro area is that we have halal meat options everywhere, even in some malls. I often wonder why more Buddhists don't try to take advantage of halal meat, if possible, as one of the requirements of halal is that it's cruelty-free. Of course there is always the chance of deception in labels, but it's a good place to start. From the website I linked, I also learned that even non-food products must be certified cruelty-free by not being tested on animals or they aren't considered halal as well. I guess my beliefs align very well with the Muslim teachings, it's not about the meat, it's about the cruelty.
    karastiMaryAnne
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited August 2013
    Citta said:

    No... murdering, lying, and stealing are not an option. What one has for lunch is.
    Unless you belong to one of the Chinese Sanghas that insist on vegetarianism.
    Fact.

    Fact, paying someone to kill an animal for you is almost as bad as killing it yourself!
    Fact, animal agriculture is the number 1 destroyer of the environment!
    Fact, vegetarians are healthier!
    Fact, it takes, depending on how the animal was raised, 4,000 to 18,000 gallons of water to make ONE hamburger!
    Fact, it takes 100 gallons of water to make ONE potato!

    They are many more facts like this!

    And people are concerned about saving water by turning off the faucet when brushing their teeth or something like that. Ha!
    pommesetoranges
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    ...then it only seems natural...

    And to me, home sapiens eating meat seems natural. We have incisors, and people ate meat long before they even knew how to cook it.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    Citta said:

    No... murdering, lying, and stealing are not an option. What one has for lunch is.
    Unless you belong to one of the Chinese Sanghas that insist on vegetarianism.
    Fact.

    Fact, paying someone to kill an animal for you is almost as bad as killing it yourself!
    Fact, animal agriculture is the number 1 destroyer of the environment!
    Fact, vegetarians are healthier!
    Fact, it takes, depending on how the animal was raised, 4,000 to 18,000 gallons of water to make ONE hamburger!
    Fact, it takes 100 gallons of water to make ONE potato!

    They are many more facts like this!

    And people are concerned about saving water by turning off the faucet when brushing their teeth or something like that. Ha!
    There are a lot of facts out there about water use that I imagine you ignore, so please don't be selective and cite it as just a reason not to eat meat.

    You have a fringe viewpoint on the topic. Period.

  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    edited August 2013
    vinlyn said:

    ...then it only seems natural...

    And to me, home sapiens eating meat seems natural. We have incisors, and people ate meat long before they even knew how to cook it.

    Please read my post again in its entirety. My point is actually about avoiding causing cruelty, not eating meat in general... Although for me personally, it just seemed easier that way. If I didn't feel this way, I wouldn't have written the second paragraph.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    @seeker242 of your statements, only the last 2 *may* qualify as fact. I say may because I haven't done any work to see if they are really true. Especially since potatoes grow in bunches so, it would be hard to measure how many gallons of water it takes to grow ONE potato...because they don't grow alone. I also don't buy that ONE burger takes that much water. Maybe that much water to bring one cow to the market, in which case the one cow makes many burgers and other edible things even if one person doesn't buy them all. I'm not excusing the waste produced by our agriculture I'm just saying your facts are probably not facts.

    Facts cannot be disputed. Especially the one about vegetarians being healthier. I know PLENTY of vegetarians who have anything but healthy diets. Just not eating meat doesn't make one not healthy. I know many people who eat meat with a well balanced diet who are healthier than vegetarians. There are a lot of ways to measure health. My best friend is vegetarian. She doesn't eat meat. But she drinks a lot of beer, and she smokes.

    The average washing machine uses 40-55 gallons to wash ONE LOAD of clothes. So, are you taking your clothes down to the river to wash them with a washboard?
    The average toilet uses about 30 gallons of water a day. So, do you let your waste just sit in the toilet in order to avoid flushing it more often?
    Do you water the lawn or garden? Take baths? Wash your car? Let the water run to get cold when you want a drink? Let it run when you brush your teeth? Shave in the shower?

    There are A LOT of things we all do every day that waste water. Again, I'm not excusing the waste and other problems associated with our factory farming, which is why I support it as little as absolutely possible. I'm just saying, that the things you listed aren't necessarily fact, and it doesn't suddenly make vegetarians perfect. Often I have seen that while they feel they excel in the dietary area, they fall short in other areas. Just like the rest of us. There are areas every single one of us can improve on. Better to spend time doing that than to tell everyone else why they are doing it wrong.


    MaryAnneJeffrey
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    vinlyn said:

    ...then it only seems natural...

    And to me, home sapiens eating meat seems natural. We have incisors, and people ate meat long before they even knew how to cook it.

    Please read my post again in its entirety. My point is actually about avoiding causing cruelty, not eating meat in general... Although for me personally, it just seemed easier that way. If I didn't feel this way, I wouldn't have written the second paragraph.

    I read the whole thing previously.

    I only chose to respond to one point since I have posted my thoughts (and yours) before.
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    vinlyn said:

    ...then it only seems natural...

    And to me, home sapiens eating meat seems natural. We have incisors, and people ate meat long before they even knew how to cook it.

    Please read my post again in its entirety. My point is actually about avoiding causing cruelty, not eating meat in general... Although for me personally, it just seemed easier that way. If I didn't feel this way, I wouldn't have written the second paragraph.

    I read the whole thing previously.

    I only chose to respond to one point since I have posted my thoughts (and yours) before.
    Did I assume that your comment was attempting to refute my comment? If so, we are in agreement and I apologize.
    karasti said:


    The average toilet uses about 30 gallons of water a day. So, do you let your waste just sit in the toilet in order to avoid flushing it more often?

    My grandmother actually does this and is incredibly particular about waste in a lot of ways. I hated that when I was a kid, she actually made me count how many squares of toilet paper I was allowed to use. I used to think she was crazy, but now that I'm an adult, I can see a lot of the methods behind her madness. She also grew up without indoor plumbing and trash disposal, so I think that sort of life would leave a prudent impression on anyone. Talking about gallons of water used makes me realize just how incredibly wasteful we all are (especially myself).
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Since I live alone at this point in my life, and live in a semi-arid state, I have adopted the water conservation of: "If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down." And, since we have had some mild water restrictions this year, I've become more sensitive about other wasting of water...letting the shower run too long before stepping in, letting the water run in the kitchen sink while I put dishes in the dishwasher, etc.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited August 2013
    vinlyn said:



    There are a lot of facts out there about water use that I imagine you ignore, so please don't be selective and cite it as just a reason not to eat meat.

    You have a fringe viewpoint on the topic. Period.

    Which ones are you imagining that I am ignoring? I would be interested in seeing them, seriously. I prefer to see actual facts rather than people's imagination. It's a fact that beef production consumes WAY more water than vegetarian foods. This is not a "fringe view". It is a verifiable, undisputed fact based on empirical data. Unless, people chose to invent things with their imagination. Then you could say it's disputed, I guess...
    karasti said:

    @seeker242 of your statements, only the last 2 *may* qualify as fact. I say may because I haven't done any work to see if they are really true. Especially since potatoes grow in bunches so, it would be hard to measure how many gallons of water it takes to grow ONE potato...because they don't grow alone. I also don't buy that ONE burger takes that much water. Maybe that much water to bring one cow to the market, in which case the one cow makes many burgers and other edible things even if one person doesn't buy them all. I'm not excusing the waste produced by our agriculture I'm just saying your facts are probably not facts.

    Fair enough. :) But, they are not "my facts". They are quoted from the The U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) Water Science School educational material. The USGS is a scientific fact-finding research organization of the the US Federal Government. The USGS only deal with real facts based on the best estimates modern day water science has to offer. It's based on empirical data using scientific method, not someone's imagination!

    I can provide evidence that vegetarians, as a group, are healthier if you really want me to. Tons of it! You really can't use individuals, AKA people I know or have met, as a comparison because that would amount to "anecdotal evidence" which is not a very scientifically sound method. It's completely unreliable actually which is why research scientists consider it irrelevant. You need large samples to get accurate data on the issue. This one here is just one example. There are many others which come to the same conclusions.

    Animal agriculture being the number 1 destroyer of the environment can be supported with tons of factual evidence as well.

    The first one. Well, that has the same amount of evidence as the comment I replied to.
    The average washing machine uses 40-55 gallons to wash ONE LOAD of clothes. So, are you taking your clothes down to the river to wash them with a washboard?
    Of course not because that is not reasonable. However, having a veggie burrito for lunch instead of a beef burrito, is quite reasonable! Why do people always try to cite some extremely unreasonable example to try and imply some kind of counter argument? I personally think it's because they simply can't make a reasonable counter argument. I'm not saying that you are being unreasonable. I'm just saying that the idea about washing clothes in a river, is quite unreasonable! There is no river by my house!

    There are A LOT of things we all do every day that waste water.
    True! The question now is "How much?". Some people actually do consume WAY more than others, exponentially more.

    Jeffrey
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    seeker242 said:



    Which ones are you imagining that I am ignoring? I would be interested in seeing them, seriously. I prefer to see actual facts rather than people's imagination. It's a fact that beef production consumes WAY more water than vegetarian foods. This is not a "fringe view". It is a verifiable, undisputed fact based on empirical data. Unless, people chose to invent things with their imagination. Then you could say it's disputed, I guess...

    karasti said:

    @seeker242 of your statements, only the last 2 *may* qualify as fact. I say may because I haven't done any work to see if they are really true. Especially since potatoes grow in bunches so, it would be hard to measure how many gallons of water it takes to grow ONE potato...because they don't grow alone. I also don't buy that ONE burger takes that much water. Maybe that much water to bring one cow to the market, in which case the one cow makes many burgers and other edible things even if one person doesn't buy them all. I'm not excusing the waste produced by our agriculture I'm just saying your facts are probably not facts.

    Fair enough. :) But, they are not "my facts". They are quoted from the The U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) Water Science School educational material. The USGS is a scientific fact-finding research organization of the the US Federal Government. The USGS only deal with real facts based on the best estimates modern day water science has to offer. It's based on empirical data using scientific method, not someone's imagination!

    I can provide evidence that vegetarians, as a group, are healthier if you really want me to. Tons of it! You really can't use individuals, AKA people I know or have met, as a comparison because that would amount to "anecdotal evidence" which is not a very scientifically sound method. It's completely unreliable actually which is why research scientists consider it irrelevant. You need large samples to get accurate data on the issue. This one here is just one example. There are many others which come to the same conclusions.

    Animal agriculture being the number 1 destroyer of the environment can be supported with tons of factual evidence as well.

    The first one. Well, that has the same amount of evidence as the comment I replied to.
    The average washing machine uses 40-55 gallons to wash ONE LOAD of clothes. So, are you taking your clothes down to the river to wash them with a washboard?
    Of course not because that is not reasonable. However, having a veggie burrito for lunch instead of a beef burrito, is quite reasonable! Why do people always try to cite some extremely unreasonable example to try and imply some kind of counter argument? I personally think it's because they simply can't make a reasonable counter argument. No I'm not saying that you are being unreasonable. I'm just saying that the idea about washing clothes in a river, is quite unreasonable! There is no river by my house!

    There are A LOT of things we all do every day that waste water.
    True! The question now is "How much?". Some people actually do consume WAY more than others.



    3.2% of the American population is vegetarian. Therefore, 96.8% of the population is not vegetarian. Therefore, vegetarianism is a fringe lifestyle. It's not bad, but it is not mainstream.

    Is any of your electricity from nuclear power plants? If so, do you stop using electricity because of its high water consumption?

    Any liquid in any bottle in your house is mostly water. Which have you discontinued because of their water consumption?

    Do you ride in motorized vehicles? How much water is used in the production of those vehicles, those tires, that gasoline?

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    vinlyn said:



    3.2% of the American population is vegetarian. Therefore, 96.8% of the population is not vegetarian. Therefore, vegetarianism is a fringe lifestyle. It's not bad, but it is not mainstream.

    The idea that beef production uses WAY more natural resources, is not even close to being "fringe"
    Is any of your electricity from nuclear power plants? If so, do you stop using electricity because of its high water consumption?

    Any liquid in any bottle in your house is mostly water. Which have you discontinued because of their water consumption?

    Do you ride in motorized vehicles? How much water is used in the production of those vehicles, those tires, that gasoline?
    No to all of the above because all of the above is not reasonable in the slightest. Why do people always try to cite some extremely unreasonable (do you not use electricity?) example to try and imply some kind of counter argument? I personally think it's because they simply can't make a reasonable counter argument. If you want to have a reasonable discussion on the subject, please make reasonable statements. If you want to just use your imagination, that's not even a discussion.

    Even doing ALL of the above, vegetarians still consume WAY less then your average meat eater because they also do all of the above.



  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited August 2013
    seeker242 said:

    ...

    Even doing ALL of the above, vegetarians still consume WAY less then your average meat eater because they also do all of the above.



    Let me state it for you more clearly: Just because you are so enthralled with vegetarianism, doesn't mean that 96.8% of the world agrees with you. Get over yourself. Just because seeker242 does something, doesn't mean it's the only right way of living.

    Vegetarianism is a fine life style for those who desire it. It doesn't mean we need vegetarian-bible-thumping for the rest of us.

    MaryAnneJeffrey
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    @seeker242 it's not that beef vs veggie burrito is unreasonable. It's that you don't seem to understand that not everyone HAS the choice between the 2, for a multitude of reasons that are valid whether you choose to seem them as valid, or not. You assume because you can do it, anyone can. It is honestly easier and more feasible for me to walk down to the river and wash my clothing than it would be for me to go into town and get a veggie burrito. Both because I cannot eat legumes or wheat, and because they are not an option where I live. I could make one (and still not be able to eat it) but I could not go to a store/deli/restaurant and get one.

    As far as vegetarians being more healthy, the same can actually be said about people who still do eat meat but limit how much, what type and still fill their diet with plenty of healthy grains, fruits and veggies. Your blanket statement of "vegetarians are healthier" doesn't apply. Some vegetarians are healthier. The average vegetarian is probably leagues healthier than the typical person who eats a standard American diet. But there are a lot of people who fall in between that can be either healthier than a vegetarian, or less healthy than the average American.

    It's not any individual item I actually have a problem with. It's your insinuation that there IS only one way to do it, and those who aren't doing it your way, are doing it wrong. Without any considering for why they do it their way. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't envision Buddha coming to my home and saying "well, despite the cost of groceries, the health issues in your family, and the availability of the items where you live, you STILL need to find a way to be vegetarian/vegan no matter what. because it is the only way." As I recall, middle way is the way. Not "Only this way."
    MaryAnne
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    karasti said:

    ...I can't envision Buddha coming to my home and saying "well, despite the cost of groceries, the health issues in your family, and the availability of the items where you live, you STILL need to find a way to be vegetarian/vegan no matter what. because it is the only way." As I recall, middle way is the way. Not "Only this way."

    No, he wouldn't. In fact, if you offered him a meat dish, he'd eat it.

    CittaMaryAnne
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Also, using the site you provided, found this about wheat:
    Wheat consumes about 790 billion cubic meters of water annually, which constitutes 12 % of the global water use for crop production.

    So, that burrito you are eating is just as costly. In fact, the vast majority of water used in crop production is driving water scarcity in most of the world. Wheat, corn, cotton, rice and sugar cane. In the US, yes, our factory farming uses a lot of water. But in the rest of the world, it's the crops that everyone, including vegetarians, eat that is causing water problems. Better get rid of all your cotton clothes! See, to you that seems horribly unreasonable, I'm sure. Yet you could easily wardrobe yourself, and your home (carpet, furniture) with hemp and bamboo products, which are far more friendly to the environment and produce much more per acre than cotton. I could tell you hemp and bamboo clothes are THE only acceptable means of clothing yourself. Heck, we can even buy them in our tiny town! So I bet you have access to them. Best get on changing out the wardrobe.

    And remember that sites like that, that are meant to make people think about their water use, are gauged for an average audience education of 8th grade. They are mostly use in science fairs and other school reports. That doesn't mean the information isn't basically valid. But it's not exactly correct, either. I could easily feed a chicken less than 400 gallons to get an egg out of it. Over the lifetime of the chicken's egg laying, sure, maybe 400 gallons. But that comes out to a lot more than 1 egg.
    MaryAnne
  • ArthurbodhiArthurbodhi Mars Veteran
    Also, using the site you provided, found this about wheat:
    Wheat consumes about 790 billion cubic meters of water annually, which constitutes 12 % of the global water use for crop production.

    So, that burrito you are eating is just as costly. In fact, the vast majority of water used in crop production is driving water scarcity in most of the world.
    Livestock require water for consumption but also for watering drops necessary for feed. Grains are often used to feed live stock about 50% of US grains produced does and 40% of world grains produced does as well. Grain and in general crop production requires various amounts of water, it takes 100,000 liters of water for a kilogram of grain fed beef, compared to wheat, which takes 900 liters.

    Both the meat-based average American diet and the lactoovovegetarian diet require significant quantities of nonrenewable fossil energy to produce. Thus, both food systems are not sustainable in the long term based on heavy fossil energy requirements. However, the meat-based diet requires more energy, land, and water resources than the lactoovovegetarian diet.

    So, the veggy burrito cost, but is not just as costly like a meat based food.


    http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/660S.full
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    My only argument is that it's not always possible. @seeker242 seems to not understand that and is consistently in these threads telling people that as Buddhists they had better be vegetarian or better yet, vegan.

    Yes, I know meat production takes more. I realize that most grain (though mostly corn, not wheat) goes to agriculture. I'm actually fairly well read on the topic. You are right, I should not have said "just as costly" although if a person made their meat-based burrito with chickens that they keep at home and made the tortilla portion out of rice (which we can collect here in the wild) they would still be quite a bit ahead of the vegetarian burrito option made with store bought items. It's just a matter of perspective. When I talk that way, people think "Oh, she's nuts. That is unreasonable, people don't do that." And yes, they actually do in some areas. I'm not saying everyone CAN do that, obviously. Yet that is what @seeker242 insists on saying when it comes to people being vegetarian/vegan. Perhaps seeker would live to come visit here and enjoy a dinner that is made from not a single thing bought from the store. That is our reality, as much of the year as we can manage it. Nuts, berries, mushrooms, wild rice, fish, grouse, the garden, the farmer's markets, locals who have eggs and such for trade and for sale. Not vegetarian, but not dependent on stores, transportation, or any of the other problematic areas of buying food at the store. Of course, I could insist that if someone REALLY cared they would do those things, find a way to forage for their foods and so on. But of course I realize that my reality is not available to very many people and I wouldn't EXPECT them to adopt it as a result.
  • ArthurbodhiArthurbodhi Mars Veteran
    edited August 2013
    karasti said:

    My only argument is that it's not always possible.

    And I agree with you. I don't think that vegetarianism is an categorical imperative.
    I just think that some people (no one in particular) just don't want make an effort. Not only in vegetarianism, also in Buddhism or any other that could threath their morals values. They are comfort with the way things are right now, just don't want to change.

    But yes, I agree with you. Not always is possible and I need to understand that.
    oceancaldera207
  • Much of the protein begotten from dairy is wasted because the body cannot use it properly. I eat a lot of protein because I lift weights. Almost 100 grams a day. It's hard to get that much without eating meat or fish or legumes or even including dairy,
    First, although in literature the estimates of bioavailability of protein sources vary widely, eggs, milk, cheese and soy and are almost always rated higher than meat. Personally I can tell you that as a weightlifter, I feel I have very efficient recovery and growth from solely vegetarian sources. And I'm pretty strong; nowadays im max benching 285-290 or so, one arm dumb rows at 130 lbs at 4 or 5 reps..etc.
    Second, it is definitely possible to get over 100 g quality vegetarian protein a day easily and without overdoing calories. I keep strict diet logs during cut phases and I can get upwards of 170 g protein @ 2000 calories and 100-120 g carbs. The big hitters are my soy iso/whey iso/casein blend powders and greek yogurts. Cheeses, nuts, legumes, textured vegetable and myco proteins bring up the rear. I don't drink milk. I can post a sample diet log if you wish for details.
    If you have lactose issues it may be a little harder but not much. Isolate whey is low in lactose, greek yogurt is low in lactose... some digestive enzymes should be enough to take care of what little there is. Of course soy isolate is lactose free.. and i've seen BV scores for soy iso in the mid 90s, blowing any meat out of the water. Of course there;s no virtually question that whey conc and iso is the most efficient followed by eggs.
    Third, dude i'm not rich...that;s an argument I hear a lot, and it's just not true. I actually save money eating veg... it just takes a little while to find vegetarian replacements that you like.

    Hey I used to think that my weight training sentenced me to eating meat, but honestly I see very little difference performance and recovery wise from veg diet. And I dont crave meat, and i dont feel deprived, and it was a lot easier than I thought. =)

    Oh and here's a heads up to fellow weightlifters; due to the varied absorption rates of soy, casein and whey conc. and their complimentary amino acid profiles, the triple blend is beginning to emerge in studies as highly effective muscle builders. What whey lacks amino acid wise, soy has in abundance, arginine for one. http://www.medicaltimesnews.com/archives/1860
    I was doing this years ago, because the addition of soy helps with any digestive discomfort of the whey conc. ( now I use Iso whey).
    I attached a photo... Im not exactly arnold, but as you can see I'm not wasting away either.
    Cheers
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited August 2013
    vinlyn said:



    Let me state it for you more clearly: Just because you are so enthralled with vegetarianism, doesn't mean that 96.8% of the world agrees with you. Get over yourself. Just because seeker242 does something, doesn't mean it's the only right way of living.

    Vegetarianism is a fine life style for those who desire it. It doesn't mean we need vegetarian-bible-thumping for the rest of us.

    We also don't need anti-vegetarian bible thumping either, especially in a thread where someone asks about wanting to become one....I have always wondered why people feel the need to randomly contribute anti-vegetarian comments in a thread like this? Why? What purpose does that serve? To try to convince the person who wants to become vegetarian to not become one? That makes no sense! We don't need anti-vegetarian bible thumping either, but some people feel a need to thump about it. Why is that? You like to eat meat, we get it. Get over yourself.
    karasti said:

    @seeker242 it's not that beef vs veggie burrito is unreasonable. It's that you don't seem to understand that not everyone HAS the choice between the 2, for a multitude of reasons that are valid whether you choose to seem them as valid, or not. You assume because you can do it, anyone can.

    That, in and of itself, is an assumption and not a reasonable one as nothing I have said has seriously indicated that. Please point out where I said "because I can, everyone can". You can't point it out because I did not say that. It's really better to not put words in people's mouths.
    As far as vegetarians being more healthy, the same can actually be said about people who still do eat meat but limit how much, what type and still fill their diet with plenty of healthy grains, fruits and veggies. Your blanket statement of "vegetarians are healthier" doesn't apply. Some vegetarians are healthier. The average vegetarian is probably leagues healthier than the typical person who eats a standard American diet. But there are a lot of people who fall in between that can be either healthier than a vegetarian, or less healthy than the average American.
    That is why you can't use individuals as a comparison. There are individuals who fall in between. However, when you include 70,000 or more people, vegetarians as a group are healthier than people who eat meat as a group. This makes "vegetarians are healthier" a true statement and the science behind this is solid.
    Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't envision Buddha coming to my home and saying "well, despite the cost of groceries, the health issues in your family, and the availability of the items where you live, you STILL need to find a way to be vegetarian/vegan no matter what. because it is the only way." As I recall, middle way is the way. Not "Only this way."
    I find it interesting that you are the one saying this and not me. Please point out where I said "no matter what". You can't because I never said that. It's really better to not put words in people's mouths.

    Although, I can not envision any Buddha approving of what goes on at a slaughterhouse...ever.
    Also, using the site you provided, found this about wheat:
    Wheat consumes about 790 billion cubic meters of water annually, which constitutes 12 % of the global water use for crop production.

    So, that burrito you are eating is just as costly.
    No, it isn't. The science does not support that idea. A veggie burrito does not, and never will equate to 4,000 to 18,000 gallons of water.

    In fact, the vast majority of water used in crop production is driving water scarcity in most of the world. Wheat, corn, cotton, rice and sugar cane. In the US, yes, our factory farming uses a lot of water. But in the rest of the world, it's the crops that everyone, including vegetarians, eat that is causing water problems.
    That is completely true! However, please note the below.

    "More than half the U.S. grain and nearly 40 percent of world grain is being fed to livestock rather than being consumed directly by humans," David Pimentel, professor of ecology in Cornell University's College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, reported at the July 24-26 meeting of the Canadian Society of Animal Science in Montreal.

    So, "that burrito you are eating is just as costly", is simply a false statement.
    Better get rid of all your cotton clothes! See, to you that seems horribly unreasonable, I'm sure. Yet you could easily wardrobe yourself, and your home (carpet, furniture) with hemp and bamboo products, which are far more friendly to the environment and produce much more per acre than cotton. I could tell you hemp and bamboo clothes are THE only acceptable means of clothing yourself. Heck, we can even buy them in our tiny town! So I bet you have access to them. Best get on changing out the wardrobe.
    That's a great way to change the subject and not address the points I made. Do you wear no cotton cloths and only hemp clothes? No, you don't. You're just saying that to try to score rhetorical points meanwhile ignoring the fact that meat production consumes WAY more resources than veg food production. This is what's called a "red herring" which is not a reasonable way to discuss something. However, the fact remains that if we both wear cotton clothing and you eat meat and I don't, it is simply a fact that I consume much less water than you do. Try to stay on topic please if you really want to discuss the issue. The issue here is meats compared to veg food. This is the topic of discussion. Meat food is much more resource intensive than veg food regardless of what anyone says about anything else. These are the facts of science.
    And remember that sites like that, that are meant to make people think about their water use, are gauged for an average audience education of 8th grade. They are mostly use in science fairs and other school reports. That doesn't mean the information isn't basically valid. But it's not exactly correct,
    The USGS does not use incorrect information. It is actual water science by professional scientists who actually know what they are doing. However, if you think you have a better source than the USGS, I would be interested in seeing it.

    I could easily feed a chicken less than 400 gallons to get an egg out of it. Over the lifetime of the chicken's egg laying, sure, maybe 400 gallons. But that comes out to a lot more than 1 egg.
    But do you? No, you don't. It does not matter what you could do, what matters is what is actually being done.

  • vinlyn said:


    Let me state it for you more clearly: Just because you are so enthralled with vegetarianism, doesn't mean that 96.8% of the world agrees with you. Get over yourself. Just because seeker242 does something, doesn't mean it's the only right way of living.

    Vegetarianism is a fine life style for those who desire it. It doesn't mean we need vegetarian-bible-thumping for the rest of us.

    Hey vinlyn, i agree that we shouldnt try to convert people to vegetarianism... its something that is a personal choice... but this post is way harsh and makes me think you have a lot of latent guilt about eating animals.
    Can you at least agree with me that it would be nice if we could eat without making animals die? I've slaughtered animals. Have you? If so, was it pretty? Be honest.
    I ate fish and fowl for years, feeling it was nutritionally necessary... but I always felt regret about it.
    And honestly, the 'everybody else is doing it' argument is pretty surprising coming from you.
    just saying.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    karasti said:

    My only argument is that it's not always possible.

    Well ok then! I never said or meant to imply "it's always possible" because it obviously isn't! Only a Sith deals in absolutes. :) My argument is if a person can, then a person should. Even the very definition of veganism is not an absolute.

    "Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose."

    Although, people who eat the meat "Because it tastes good", when they could easily choose something else, is not a good enough excuse. Especially if you are trying to live a compassionate lifestyle.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran



    Hey vinlyn, i agree that we shouldnt try to convert people to vegetarianism... its something that is a personal choice... but this post is way harsh and makes me think you have a lot of latent guilt about eating animals.
    Can you at least agree with me that it would be nice if we could eat without making animals die? I've slaughtered animals. Have you? If so, was it pretty? Be honest.
    I ate fish and fowl for years, feeling it was nutritionally necessary... but I always felt regret about it.
    And honestly, the 'everybody else is doing it' argument is pretty surprising coming from you.
    just saying.

    First, note that I have said in this and other similar threads that "Vegetarianism is a fine life style for those who desire it." On the rare occasions when people have come to my house for dinner and I know they are vegetarian, I have made provisions for them to enjoy a veggie meal. I also indicated earlier that I have gotten to the point where I very rarely have a meat-based lunch, and usually have a meatless meal once every 7-10 days. So I have reduced my meat consumption.

    I have no guilt about eating animals. Nor do most Theravada monks in Thailand and elsewhere, nor, apparently, did Buddha. I think that's natural for homo sapiens.

    Have I personally slaughtered animals for eating? No. But I lived with my grandfather, and he was a hunter and fisherman, and I have seen him involved in the slaughter process of fish, pheasant, duck, deer, elk, and moose from the time I was a little boy. We also raised and slaughtered chickens on our semi-farm property.

    You're incorrect to interpret my comments as everyone else is doing it. I'm simply pointing out what the overwhelming norm is.

    Citta
  • All right vynlyn point taken and I'll leave it at that.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    In Buddhism we eat to ensure the body remains fit for purpose. How that is understood or pans out is up to you. We wear clothes for purposes of warmth, protection etc. We live in buildings for protection from the elements.
    How much augmentation is required? For example do we require a computer or a fish curry? How many rooms or pair of leather shoes do we need? How much thought about meals? Be a little kinder. A little simpler . . . a little . . . wait a minute . . . I have run out of pickled chillies for my cheese and pickle on toast breakfast . . . Must be time to ponder whether to swap to muesli. Ah the mind . . . what a thing to waste . . . and now back to the meaty stuff . . . :wave:
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    @oceancaldera207 I don't think a person has to be rich, I just meant in terms of where I, specifically, live. The area I live in just is not conducive to vegetarianism year round due to availability and cost. I cannot eat dairy, legumes or wheat so that limits my protein sources to a degree. I do use protein supplements, however I prefer to keep my diet as close to natural as possible.

    @seeker242 I cannot have chickens where I am at because it is not possible to fence our yard to the degree needed when we have a whole neighborhood of feral cats and wandering dogs. But we have had chickens in the past and will have them again, and currently we get our chicken and eggs from a friend who raises them on pasture land only. We trade veggies and fruits with them for chicken and eggs.

    As usual you don't understand why I brought up the point of the clothes. It's not as a distraction. It was simply to point out that just because someone technically should be able to do something doesn't make it truly doable for them. Our lifestyle, over all, even eating meat, is better for the environment than even the typical vegetarian who shops at a store. It is certainly possible to eat meat and make it a point to have less impact and not support factory farms.
  • GuiGui Veteran
    Is it ok for vegetarians to eat animal crackers?
    karastivinlyn
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Gui said:

    Is it ok for vegetarians to eat animal crackers?

    That depends. Is it ok for an animal to eat vegetarian crackers ?
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I'm going to sum up and then be done reading this particular discussion.

    1. If you want to be vegetarian/vegan, that's wonderful and you should make every attempt to try.
    2. If you aren't ready to be vegetarian, or can't for whatever reason, this does not make you an animal hater, a bad person or a bad Buddhist. It's ok.
    3. As Buddhists we should make whatever attempts we can to lessen harm in the world, including in what we take into our bodies. But what that means is different for everyone. And that's ok.
    4. Everyone's bodies, and life circumstances are different. Not everyone can be vegetarian for a variety of reasons, and that's ok. But if it's important to you and you can make it work, then terrific. There most certainly are sources of all the macro and micronutrients available to you in other foods and in supplements. Don't let a fear of a lack of iron, B vitamins, or protein keep you from being vegetarian if that is what you want to do. There are a million resources for veggies online about getting all those sources into your diet.
    vinlynJainarayanoceancaldera207cvalue
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Hmmmmmm...Doesn't do it for me @karasti.
    Its not a question of not being ready, I have no intention of becoming vegetarian.
    Plus the fact that one is required to eat meat in many Vajrayana pujas.
    Some only eat meat during those pujas.
    Me, I agree with Gary Snyder. Its splitting hairs.
    Pass the mustard.
    vinlyn
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I guess when I said "if you can't for whatever reason" I included within that the people who just choose not to and are fine with their decision. One day, maybe I will change my mind. But it won't be any time soon. There are a lot of reasons we (my family) are not vegetarian but I am not sure I would be even if all those reasons did not exist. I didn't mean to insinuate that some day, everyone should prepare to be ready to be vegetarian, lol.
  • karasti said:

    @oceancaldera207 I don't think a person has to be rich, I just meant in terms of where I, specifically, live. The area I live in just is not conducive to vegetarianism year round due to availability and cost. I cannot eat dairy, legumes or wheat so that limits my protein sources to a degree. I do use protein supplements, however I prefer to keep my diet as close to natural as possible.

    Totally understandable. I was just saying you don't have to be rich to be a vegetarian athlete. You do have good points about helping by not supporting factory farms.
    Citta said:

    Hmmmmmm...Doesn't do it for me @karasti.
    Its not a question of not being ready, I have no intention of becoming vegetarian.
    Plus the fact that one is required to eat meat in many Vajrayana pujas.
    Some only eat meat during those pujas.
    Me, I agree with Gary Snyder. Its splitting hairs.
    Pass the mustard.

    :facepalm: So recently they grew meat in a lab. If it tasted the same, had the same cost, had the same nutrition, was totally available to you, would you still buy regular meat from slaughtered animals ?
    Hmm.
    :scratch:
  • " So recently they grew meat in a lab. If it tasted the same, had the same cost, had the same nutrition, was totally available to you, would you still buy regular meat from slaughtered animals ?
    Hmm. "

    Well, if they engineered lab-grown veggies, cloned from cells of the plants several generations removed from the naturally grown vegetable in (real) soil and sunshine, would you forgo all naturally grown veggies to eat lab-grown veggies instead? Even if it meant you'd be saving the Earth's topsoil reserves and protecting natural reservoirs and ground waters from fertilizers, and drastically cutting down on erosion to do so?
    I wouldn't.

    I also would not eat lab-grown meat no matter HOW good it tasted or looked. I find the idea of lab-grown genetically engineered meat completely repulsive....

    Citta
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    karasti said:

    I guess when I said "if you can't for whatever reason" I included within that the people who just choose not to and are fine with their decision. One day, maybe I will change my mind. But it won't be any time soon. There are a lot of reasons we (my family) are not vegetarian but I am not sure I would be even if all those reasons did not exist. I didn't mean to insinuate that some day, everyone should prepare to be ready to be vegetarian, lol.

    Maybe they should start preparing! They might not have a choice in the matter!

    "Food shortages could force world into vegetarianism, warn scientists"
    http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2012/aug/26/food-shortages-world-vegetarianism

    "Leading water scientists have issued one of the sternest warnings yet about global food supplies, saying that the world's population may have to switch almost completely to a vegetarian diet over the next 40 years to avoid catastrophic shortages."

    Although, some people believe the issue is about just lunch. It's much bigger than just lunch. It's about the rape of the natural environment and the billions of animals that suffer and die, for lunch.



  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited August 2013
    First of all, there is no 'food shortage' globally. There is a food distribution problem, not a shortage. We in the US throw away more food in one year than some families consume in 3 years in other parts of the world. It's a matter of waste and availability- not shortages.

    Second of all, even the article itself concludes that the answer is finding ways to improve water conservation, greatly reduce waste and pollutions, and distributing water to places without enough so they can too grow food. Unless I missed it, there is NO overwhelming consensus or evidence that a world-wide veggie diet would ease the fresh water issues in the next several generations.
    According to the article, it's a matter of "Some scientists believe......" , well how many is some? 2? 6? 10? Out of how many? Hundreds? More?

    You really think clearing every square inch of "viable" acreage available on this planet to plant veggies and fruits is the best plan we've got?
    And the animals and wildlife already here and thriving in their own diverse natural environments? What about them? Just let them die off and we can rest easy because we don't EAT them anymore? Really??

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    MaryAnne said:

    First of all, there is no 'food shortage' globally. There is a food distribution problem, not a shortage. We in the US throw away more food in one year than some families consume in 3 years in other parts of the world. It's a matter of waste and availability- not shortages.

    Second of all, even the article itself concludes that the answer is finding ways to improve water conservation, greatly reduce waste and pollutions, and distributing water to places without enough so they can too grow food. Unless I missed it, there is NO overwhelming consensus or evidence that a world-wide veggie diet would ease the fresh water issues in the next several generations.
    According to the article, it's a matter of "Some scientists believe......" , well how many is some? 2? 6? 10? Out of how many? Hundreds? More?

    You really think clearing every square inch of "viable" acreage available on this planet to plant veggies and fruits is the best plan we've got?
    And the animals and wildlife already here and thriving in their own diverse natural environments? What about them? Just let them die off and we can rest easy because we don't EAT them anymore? Really??

    Thank you, Mary Anne.

    There is a tremendous waste of food, even in parts of the third world. I hate to think of the tons of veggies and fruits that ends up in the garbage from the street markets in Thailand everyday.

    Perhaps seeker would like to level more of the Amazon to grow vegan food.



  • CittaCitta Veteran

    karasti said:

    @oceancaldera207 I don't think a person has to be rich, I just meant in terms of where I, specifically, live. The area I live in just is not conducive to vegetarianism year round due to availability and cost. I cannot eat dairy, legumes or wheat so that limits my protein sources to a degree. I do use protein supplements, however I prefer to keep my diet as close to natural as possible.

    Totally understandable. I was just saying you don't have to be rich to be a vegetarian athlete. You do have good points about helping by not supporting factory farms.
    Citta said:

    Hmmmmmm...Doesn't do it for me @karasti.
    Its not a question of not being ready, I have no intention of becoming vegetarian.
    Plus the fact that one is required to eat meat in many Vajrayana pujas.
    Some only eat meat during those pujas.
    Me, I agree with Gary Snyder. Its splitting hairs.
    Pass the mustard.

    :facepalm: So recently they grew meat in a lab. If it tasted the same, had the same cost, had the same nutrition, was totally available to you, would you still buy regular meat from slaughtered animals ?
    Hmm.
    :scratch:
    Yes. Just as my ancestors have for a million years. ( hunted or killed ). Its what we do. It suits me. I like it. Frankly its doing the animals a favour.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    MaryAnne said:

    First of all, there is no 'food shortage' globally. There is a food distribution problem, not a shortage. We in the US throw away more food in one year than some families consume in 3 years in other parts of the world. It's a matter of waste and availability- not shortages.

    If you want to argue with the worlds leading water scientists, of course you are free to do that. However, I really don't think you have the knowledge, expertise or education to do so. Although, you can try if you want I guess... You should send them an email explaining to them how they are just wrong. I'm sure they will give serious consideration to your uneducated opinion on the matter.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    MaryAnne said:

    First of all, there is no 'food shortage' globally. There is a food distribution problem, not a shortage. We in the US throw away more food in one year than some families consume in 3 years in other parts of the world. It's a matter of waste and availability- not shortages.

    If you want to argue with the worlds leading water scientists, of course you are free to do that. However, I really don't think you have the knowledge, expertise or education to do so. Although, you can try if you want I guess... You should send them an email explaining to them how they are just wrong. I'm sure they will give serious consideration to your uneducated opinion on the matter.

    And what are your qualifications?

    Any background in hydrology, for example?

    You know seeker, by this time I would think you would notice that virtually everyone on our forum has one view or the other. Almost no one is on the fence. So you are preaching for naught.

    As I have said repeatedly, for those who are attracted to vegetarianism, that's fine. It's an acceptable lifestyle for a small minority of the population. I'm not trying to get anyone to not be a vegetarian.

    CittaMaryAnne
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited August 2013
    There is evidence that seeker242's tactics are completely counter-productive because they polarise people.
    I have seen examples where posters who are sympathetic to the veggie cause end up distancing themselves from his presentation of that cause.
    Its just nag nag nag.
    And we all learn to turn off from that we are about 5. The eyes glaze over. The mind moves into neutral.
    vinlynriverflow
This discussion has been closed.