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Just a stupid question... Really.

DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
in General Banter
In so many of our posts we say the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path but wouldn't it be the Three Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path?

The Eightfold Path is the fourth noble truth...

Hey, I warned you.
ChazzenmysteToshlobster

Comments

  • DaftChrisDaftChris Spiritually conflicted. Not of this world. Veteran
    Mind. Blown. :eek:

    :D
    VastmindDavid
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    edited October 2013
    ourself said:

    In so many of our posts we say the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path but wouldn't it be the Three Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path?

    The Eightfold Path is the fourth noble truth...

    Hey, I warned you.

    This is something ive always wanted to say aswell but thought everyone would think its pointless to mention!

    The 8 fold path isnt a 'truth' is it??
    Its a 'path'
    Therefore, its the 3 noble truths and the path to enlightenment is 8 fold! (Well, According to buddha at least)
    David
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited October 2013
    The Four Noble Truths contain the essence of the Buddha's teachings. It was these four principles that the Buddha came to understand during his meditation under the bodhi tree.

    The truth of suffering (Dukkha)
    The truth of the origin of suffering (Samudāya)
    The truth of the cessation of suffering (Nirodha)
    The truth of the path to the cessation of suffering (Magga)

    The Buddha is often compared to a physician. In the first two Noble Truths he diagnosed the problem (suffering) and identified its cause. The third Noble Truth is the realisation that there is a cure.

    The fourth Noble Truth, in which the Buddha set out the Eightfold Path, is the prescription, the way to achieve a release from suffering.

    The final Noble Truth is the Buddha's prescription for the end of suffering. This is a set of principles called the Eightfold Path.

    The Eightfold Path is also called the Middle Way: it avoids both indulgence and severe asceticism, neither of which the Buddha had found helpful in his search for enlightenment.
    ****************************

    so I guess one could say that there is a truth (the cumulative 8 fold path/prescription) within the truth of claiming there is a path to end suffering.... ??

    JeffreylobstercvalueDavid
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    ourself said:

    In so many of our posts we say the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path but wouldn't it be the Three Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path?

    The Eightfold Path is the fourth noble truth...

    Quite right, and you're also right that it always seems to be the 4NT AND 8FP and this is, strictly speaking, redundant.

    I've even done it myself. I should be taken out, horse-whipped, gutt-shot and left for dead.

    Ok. Maybe not.

    It might be better referred to as the simply 4NT. There should be a Rule in the TOC, right after an outright ban and sever punishment for using the term "Hinayana". No more using the phrase "4NT and 8FP".
    David
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    MaryAnne said:

    The Buddha is often compared to a physician.

    Quite right. I've seen the 4NT presented with that in mind:

    1. You are sick
    2. There is a reason you are sick.
    3. You can get better
    4. Here's how you get better.

    ...or something like that.

    David
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Some such as our old friend DD thought that right view of the 8FP was the four noble truths. But that is circular because 4NT refers to right view and right view refers to 4NT. Another example of circular reasoning is the existence of God as the Bible shows and then the truth of the Bible by saying it is of God.
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Jeffrey said:

    Some such as our old friend DD thought that right view of the 8FP was the four noble truths. But that is circular because 4NT refers to right view and right view refers to 4NT. Another example of circular reasoning is the existence of God as the Bible shows and then the truth of the Bible by saying it is of God.

    Ah, but you can test the eightfold path, but you're not allowed to test God. Deuteronomy 6:16 refers.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Much ado about nothing.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    You can test the Bible. If it makes you happier and more free from sin. Sin isn't a pretty picture. You can also feel the joy of the Lord in your heart etc..

    True you are not able to test God, but something in your relationship with 'Jesus' must be 'real' otherwise you wouldn't have a feeling of Jesus. So Jesus could be inseparable with your mind.

    Also if you try to test the 4NT by the 8FP you get to right view. I don't agree with DDs definition of right view as the 4NT because you need to have right view to get the 4NT but.... It's hard to explain but it is circular reasoning. Maybe I am not seeing something. That would be the first time I was EVER wrong j/k. :buck:
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Much ado about nothing.

    Dharma = much ado about Nothing
    Advancement = much to do about Nothing
    Enlightenment = Nothing ado
    Return to Life = adoing Nothing with much adodo
    :orange:
  • poptartpoptart Veteran
    Yes indoodo, I mean indeedy!
    lobster
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Well, I heard one scholar talk about numerology and how Buddhism in its formation was woven around magical symbols, etc. The number 4 is supposed to be a perfectly balanced and complete mystical number that denotes wholeness (four directions, four winds, four walls, etc) and thus either the number 4 or multiples of 4 such as 8 have meaning in themselves. So for someone speaking the language of symbols, the 4 Noble Truths and 8-Fold path symbolize an all-encompassing equation.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Describing the Eightfold Path as "the prescription" is a bit much for me. I prefer to think of the Four Noble Truths as observations that anyone is free to agree or disagree with. The Eightfold Path is a series of suggestions that anyone might implement or ignore.

    This is just my preference and I suppose we could get into a Jesuitical dither about whether the suggestions of the Eightfold Path will need to be implemented irrespective of whether they are referred to as the "Eightfold Path."

    I just don't care much for injecting the search for happiness or peace with a "Buddhist" imperative of some kind. Whether that imperative is true or untrue, everyone wants to be happy.
    David
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited October 2013
    genkaku said:

    Describing the Eightfold Path as "the prescription" is a bit much for me. I prefer to think of the Four Noble Truths as observations that anyone is free to agree or disagree with. The Eightfold Path is a series of suggestions that anyone might implement or ignore.

    This is just my preference and I suppose we could get into a Jesuitical dither about whether the suggestions of the Eightfold Path will need to be implemented irrespective of whether they are referred to as the "Eightfold Path."

    I just don't care much for injecting the search for happiness or peace with a "Buddhist" imperative of some kind. Whether that imperative is true or untrue, everyone wants to be happy.

    I understand your objections to the language used. No argument from me.
    BTW, that comment I posted (the one you're referring to) is not a comment of my own words; I cut n pasted it from a traditional (Tibetan?) Buddhist website's Q-n-A section regarding the OP topic. :-)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited October 2013
    @gengaku, before right view they are suggestions. Afterwords they are a NOBLE truth that can never let you go and that you can never let go of.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Jeffrey said:

    @gengaku, before right view they are suggestions. Afterwords they are a NOBLE truth that can never let you go and that you can never let go of.

    I agree here. It's like looking at the painting by Salvador Dali "Swans reflecting elephants"... Once you see Dali standing there with his hands in his pockets at the left of the pond you will never unsee him there.
    genkaku said:

    Describing the Eightfold Path as "the prescription" is a bit much for me. I prefer to think of the Four Noble Truths as observations that anyone is free to agree or disagree with. The Eightfold Path is a series of suggestions that anyone might implement or ignore.

    This is just my preference and I suppose we could get into a Jesuitical dither about whether the suggestions of the Eightfold Path will need to be implemented irrespective of whether they are referred to as the "Eightfold Path."

    I just don't care much for injecting the search for happiness or peace with a "Buddhist" imperative of some kind. Whether that imperative is true or untrue, everyone wants to be happy.

    I see what you're getting at but we are free to ignore a doctors prescription as well as long as we don't mind the disease.

    The eight spokes of the wheel go quite well for me but when we get right into the nitty-gritty of how each individual spoke must be forged we find almost all of our sectarian differences and divisions.

    The devil is in the details.

    Thanks @everybody, for making a stupid question feel wanted.

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