What did Buddha say about blacks and whites?

footiam

Is there anywhere in the sutras that discuss the existence of blacks and whites or it humans who have invented the different races in our world and even coloured them blacks, whites, yellows, blues and browns.

Cinorjer

The caste system in Buddha's time proclaimed lighter colored skin to be more desirable and a sign of higher birth, since the higher class Brahmans generally had lighter skin tones and also to many caste conscious cultures, dark skin meant you had to work outdoors under the sun and only the rich could afford to stay indoors.

While Buddha preached against the caste system, many of his most important disciples came from the Brahman class and a bit of this bias crept in. In "The Sutra of Cause and Effect" supposedly the Buddha gave a rather lengthy list of attributes a person is born with and what actions in a previous life caused this. In a rather offhand way he is supposed to have said "The person who hinders the bright splendor of the Buddha is born black and thin." But his list of causes and effects includes such gems as people born handsome had patient minds in a previous life, while being born ugly meant you got angry a lot in your past life. Also being poor came from being stingy in your previous life, etc.

See, nobody at that time had a clue about genetics and the sometimes strange results across generations of primary and hidden genes that are passed on by both mother and father and sometimes skips generations, and certainly didn't know about how environment can have an effect on fetal development. They were at the "mother was frightened by a cow so baby has cow shaped birthmark" stage. This cause and effect karma theory was the best they could come up with that seemed to fit the observation.

Jason

I think MN 93 can be interpreted in a way that illustrates the Buddha's view that the worthiness of a person has nothing to do with their caste, or nationality, or skin colour, etc. but with their actions of body, speech, and mind.

Sabre

Go the middle way: Be grey!

vinlyn

It's interesting, Cinorjer, how some of those same issues affect life in Thailand today. Certainly not to the extent of having a formal caste system, but the Thais spend a lot of time and money making their skin as light as possible. I think it's lessened a bit in recent years, but when I first started going to Thailand in the mid-1980s, I couldn't figure out why Thai men consistently wore long-sleeved shirts in such a hot and humid climate, and why shorts were such a no-no. After some discussions with well-educated Thais, it became clear that if you wore short-sleeved shirts, your arms would become darkened with tan; shorts were what common laborers in the rice padis and working in trenches wore...and they were all so dark-skinned due to the sun. They pretty much admitted it was a class thing. The Thais are as obsessed with lightening their skins as Americans are at tanning thiers.

robot

Yes. I thought the women wore those dust masks to protect their lungs from smog. Now I think it is to keep the sun off their face.

vinlyn

There have actually been many news articles about the Thai obsession with lighter skin, and it was a amazing to me how many television commercials there were there for skin-lightening lotions. And used by both men and women.

lobster

Julius Caesar tells us (in De Bello Gallico) that the Britanni used to colour their bodies blue with vitrum, a word that roughly translates to "glass". Many have assumed that vitrum refers to woad, but other modern authors regard this as a misconception, possibly repeated for political reasons; Caesar may also have described some form of copper- or iron-based pigment.[7][unreliable source?] The northern inhabitants of Britain came to be known as Picts (Picti), which means "painted ones" in Latin, and may have been due to these accounts of them painting or tattooing their bodies.

http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/sumaries/q-a/thought-is.htm
How about a blue woad or henna tattoo on each palm?

A Palm
'Blue
Blood'

Palm b
'Buddha
Palm'

Invincible_summer

@vinlyn - It's not just Thailand - it seems that many parts of Asia have this obsession with lightened skin. Even in places like Korea, Taiwan, and Japan where the locals typically are fairer in complexion already, you can find all sorts of creams with a whitening substance in them.

betaboy

It is because beauty standards are set by the west - so everyone wants to look like them. Brad Pitt or Jolie - this is what a guy or girl wants to look like, not like a Japanese or a Sudanese. Unfortunate but true.

ThailandTom

This thread title... what

Yes all over Asia people have whitening creams and solutions because that is what they want to look like. And most white people want a tan, do you know why? It is quite simple, over years and years of marketing, advertising and pretty much brain washing, it has been instilled into the populous that how you look naturally is not good enough, so you nee to look different and or the opposite to how you do naturally. So go and buy these harmful whitening creams, go and soak up those harmful UV rays or those tanning creams, but of course spend your money in doing so.

vinlyn

betaboy said:

It is because beauty standards are set by the west - so everyone wants to look like them. Brad Pitt or Jolie - this is what a guy or girl wants to look like, not like a Japanese or a Sudanese. Unfortunate but true.

In Thailand, that's not the reason. It really is because darker skin means (to the Thais) low class field workers.

ThailandTom

vinlyn said:

betaboy said:

It is because beauty standards are set by the west - so everyone wants to look like them. Brad Pitt or Jolie - this is what a guy or girl wants to look like, not like a Japanese or a Sudanese. Unfortunate but true.

In Thailand, that's not the reason. It really is because darker skin means (to the Thais) low class field workers.

This is partly true, if you have darker skin it shows you are outside working blue collar jobs more and if you have lighter skin you are cooped up inside working in an office or bank etc. However, some people are born naturally very dark like my partner. But even if you take your statement it still stems from advertising and capitalism's targeting methods.

hermitwin

Buddha lived in north India.
So it is unlikely that he saw any Africans.
However, he accepted people from all different castes.
Even today, in India, people of the lowest caste turn to Buddhism to escape from
the discrimination.

vinlyn

I'm not sure I agree. The trend in Thailand dates to way before television and before they got many western films...apparently to around the time of King Chulalongkorn. I'm just telling you what my rural Thai friends have told me numerous times.

The trend may now be accentuated with western media.

hermitwin

Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman.
~ Buddha.

ThailandTom

Ok well you can say that the train of thought was there to begin with, like with most things, status, power and all of that jazz. Then along comes capitalism to capitalize on this and blow it right up so people are now rubbing harmful chemicals all over their body to make themselves feel happy.

Take a step back a moment and think about this, what makes a person, a sane person, put harmful agents on their skin or sit hours and hours under harmful UV lights? It is pretty insane when you think about it objectively. I have seen various items on channel 3 here of people having very bad reactions to these skin whitening creams. But yea the idea was there before I guess but capitalism has blown it it up to huge proportions.

misecmisc1

hermitwin said:

Even today, in India, people of the lowest caste turn to Buddhism to escape from
the discrimination.

i think this is not the case - the people of lower caste in India turn preferably to Christianity - because of the monetary advantages they get through christian missionaries initially.

moreover, these days in India it is better to be in lower caste than in higher caste, because of the advantages people get through reservations for these lower castes in education, job etc which are run through government. in a practical way, getting born in a higher caste in India these days is a curse and getting born in a lower caste is a gift.

Cinorjer

ThailandTom said:

Ok well you can say that the train of thought was there to begin with, like with most things, status, power and all of that jazz. Then along comes capitalism to capitalize on this and blow it right up so people are now rubbing harmful chemicals all over their body to make themselves feel happy.

Take a step back a moment and think about this, what makes a person, a sane person, put harmful agents on their skin or sit hours and hours under harmful UV lights? It is pretty insane when you think about it objectively. I have seen various items on channel 3 here of people having very bad reactions to these skin whitening creams. But yea the idea was there before I guess but capitalism has blown it it up to huge proportions.

Well yeah, capitalism thrives on finding a need and filling it. The bias for lighter skin in caste conscious societies has some well known cultural roots. So if people want lighter skin, some enterprising capitalist will try to provide products and convince people they need his products. While that has some obvious downsides, don't forget that only capitalism has ever created a middle class and helped improve general living standards for anyone but the upper creamy crust.

Buddha, being a Prince of the upper class during a time when he might have been expected to lead an army or deal with ambassadors, would have been given a first class education by local standards. He was probably aware of the vast Chinese empire and the pale skinned barbarians that liked to invade from the West. Wonder if his education included knowledge of black skinned tribes and strange animals like giraffes living somewhere out there?

Jason

misecmisc1 said:

hermitwin said:

Even today, in India, people of the lowest caste turn to Buddhism to escape from
the discrimination.

i think this is not the case - the people of lower caste in India turn preferably to Christianity - because of the monetary advantages they get through christian missionaries initially.

moreover, these days in India it is better to be in lower caste than in higher caste, because of the advantages people get through reservations for these lower castes in education, job etc which are run through government. in a practical way, getting born in a higher caste in India these days is a curse and getting born in a lower caste is a gift.

Oh, it's the case. It's called the Dalit Buddhist movement. B. R. Ambedkar in particular popularized the conversion to Buddhism of those on the lowest rung in India's caste-based society.

Kundo

betaboy said:

It is because beauty standards are set by the west - so everyone wants to look like them. Brad Pitt or Jolie - this is what a guy or girl wants to look like, not like a Japanese or a Sudanese. Unfortunate but true.

Woah back up there. That is a GROSS generalisation and as someone who lived in Japan I can tell you that is NOT true. Way before the "evil gaijin" came to Japan, they have wanted lighter skin. It was a sign of noble birth. As stated previously in other posts, the Japanese are much lighter skinned anyway. I have seen depictions of Goddesses there who are alabaster white. The culture subscribed to it from day one.

I'm all for abolishing racism, however I will not indulge in self flagellation because I was born white in a first world country.

Raven.

anataman

footiam said:

Is there anywhere in the sutras that discuss the existence of blacks and whites or it humans who have invented the different races in our world and even coloured them blacks, whites, yellows, blues and browns.

@footiam whilst I take a few gentle deep breaths in and out I'd like to ask you a simple question?

What motivated or drove you to post this question as I don't understand where it came from or where it is going? I just see a jumble and confusion of comments that have no real context.

Tosh

dhammachick said:

Way before the "evil gaijin" came to Japan, they have wanted lighter skin. It was a sign of noble birth. As stated previously in other posts, the Japanese are much lighter skinned anyway. I have seen depictions of Goddesses there who are alabaster white. The culture subscribed to it from day one.

Yep. My Japanese grandad was a bit like Mr Miagi from the Karate Kid and he used to carve Noh masks. One of them was a woman with a shockingly rice-powdered-white-face, shaved eyebrows, and her teeth would be dyed black (probably to camouflage the rotten ones).



My mother explained to me that this was the height of female fashion about three-hundred-years ago.

Hot chick or what?

lobster

hermitwin said:

Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman.
~ Buddha.

Is this a misquote?

The modern spirit might be:
Not by birth is one a Booddy Cat; not by birth is one a bra-man (woman? trans-vestite? breastless being?)

. . . 'serious debate' on the race to the 'White House' is now resumed . . .
:crazy:

misecmisc1

Jason said:

misecmisc1 said:

hermitwin said:

Even today, in India, people of the lowest caste turn to Buddhism to escape from
the discrimination.

i think this is not the case - the people of lower caste in India turn preferably to Christianity - because of the monetary advantages they get through christian missionaries initially.

moreover, these days in India it is better to be in lower caste than in higher caste, because of the advantages people get through reservations for these lower castes in education, job etc which are run through government. in a practical way, getting born in a higher caste in India these days is a curse and getting born in a lower caste is a gift.

Oh, it's the case. It's called the Dalit Buddhist movement. B. R. Ambedkar in particular popularized the conversion to Buddhism of those on the lowest rung in India's caste-based society.

@Jason: thanks for sharing this information. it is kind of strange to me that i do not know my state of Uttar Pradesh completely, even i have lived in Lucknow for work purpose for nearly 4 years - i know about B.R.Ambedkar and Bahujan Samaj Party, a political party having B.R.Ambedkar as its idol - yet i did not know about this buddhist movement. the most wierd part is i think there is no buddhist monastry in UP, except in Varanasi - may be i am wrong here too, but i did not heard of any buddhist monastry in UP, except for the monastry at Sarnath in Varanasi.

footiam

anataman said:

footiam said:

Is there anywhere in the sutras that discuss the existence of blacks and whites or it humans who have invented the different races in our world and even coloured them blacks, whites, yellows, blues and browns.

@footiam whilst I take a few gentle deep breaths in and out I'd like to ask you a simple question?

What motivated or drove you to post this question as I don't understand where it came from or where it is going? I just see a jumble and confusion of comments that have no real context.

There may be a jumble and confusion of comments. Never mind. The comments still shed some lights about other things other then on Buddha's thought.
It could be Uncle Tom's cabin or the idiosyncrasies of the different races in the community that inspired this question. Never mind. We don't have to understand all the time where things come from and where things are going. It is good enough if we understand the present. The confusion.

footiam

Cinorjer said:

The caste system in Buddha's time proclaimed lighter colored skin to be more desirable and a sign of higher birth, since the higher class Brahmans generally had lighter skin tones and also to many caste conscious cultures, dark skin meant you had to work outdoors under the sun and only the rich could afford to stay indoors.

While Buddha preached against the caste system, many of his most important disciples came from the Brahman class and a bit of this bias crept in. In "The Sutra of Cause and Effect" supposedly the Buddha gave a rather lengthy list of attributes a person is born with and what actions in a previous life caused this. In a rather offhand way he is supposed to have said "The person who hinders the bright splendor of the Buddha is born black and thin." But his list of causes and effects includes such gems as people born handsome had patient minds in a previous life, while being born ugly meant you got angry a lot in your past life. Also being poor came from being stingy in your previous life, etc.

See, nobody at that time had a clue about genetics and the sometimes strange results across generations of primary and hidden genes that are passed on by both mother and father and sometimes skips generations, and certainly didn't know about how environment can have an effect on fetal development. They were at the "mother was frightened by a cow so baby has cow shaped birthmark" stage. This cause and effect karma theory was the best they could come up with that seemed to fit the observation.

It is difficult not to take that "Sutra of Cause and Effect" with a grain of salt. Never mind about not knowing genetics. That kind of reasoning makes me wonder if that particular sutras have been tampered with. Not that you can't mistype 'dog' for 'got"