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I would say the people who "owned" the Buddhas are the thieves or contributed to thievery.
Excellent point. Frankly, I hope they will end up back where they belong- in Borneo.
Exactly. When you visit some of the ancient temples in Thailand -- for example at Ayutthaya and Sukhothai, as well as other historic villages -- there are hundreds of headless Buddhas. Always steamed me a little.
I don't think that the headless Buddhas are always a result of theft. In this picture from Ankor Wat the Buddha images have been scratched out at some time when Buddhism was not the current religion. Thousands of Buddha images have been destroyed there, some as recently as during Pol Pot's regime.
Here is an article I found which proves what you said to be true for the most part. At Sukhothai it seems it was a mixture of theft and wanton destruction.
Yes, the Burmese sacked and destroyed much of Thailand...not to mention murdering and enslaving tens of thousands (all in 1767, although Burma and Thailand had been going at it off and on for decades. After the sacking of Ayutthaya, one Thai -- Thaksin -- reemerged and founded a new capital city at Thonburi (across the river from present-day Bangkok), but he suffered from megalomania and was beaten to death in royal fashion (in a velvet sack) -- although there are stories that he was not murdered, but taken to a cave in the Thai peninsula. The king who took his place founded Bangkok as capital and began the current royal dynasty. Interestingly, upon the founding of this Chakri dynasty, the royal fortune tellers predicted there would be a total of 9 kings. And the current King Bhumipohl is the ninth...and he is old and very unwell. Many believe the prophecy will lead to either no king when Bhumipohl dies (which is hoped for by many since his son is an ass), or that a princess will become Thailand's first dominant Queen.
There -- more than you ever wanted to know about Thai history and current events!
You do know that they are having the biggest demonstrations currently since the riots 3 years ago?
No, I did not know that. Hopefully it's confined to Bangkok. It's a vacation till feb 20. I will only be in Bangkok for one night then heading down to Krabi town. Some diving at koh Lanta maybe then head to Indonesia for a month. When I get back to Thailand I'll likely go straight up north. Bangkok is ok,but there is not much for me there.
You do know that they are having the biggest demonstrations currently since the riots 3 years ago?
No, I did not know that. Hopefully it's confined to Bangkok. It's a vacation till feb 20. I will only be in Bangkok for one night then heading down to Krabi town. Some diving at koh Lanta maybe then head to Indonesia for a month. When I get back to Thailand I'll likely go straight up north. Bangkok is ok,but there is not much for me there.
Cool.
If you haven't been to Wat Tham Seua in Krabi, I highly recommend it. THe walk back to the forest-like setting of kutis is very interesting. And, I highly recommend the steps up to the panorama view of the region, although it is a very strenuous climb.
I one had a rather large stone Buddha stolen from my yard. I was mystified. It makes no sense. Maybe it was just a rip and sell with no personal attachment. There must be a special place for receivers of stolen Buddhas.
I once had a rather large stone Buddha stolen from my yard. I was mystified. It makes no sense.
It may make no sense to have a stone Buddha and therefore replacing its form with emptiness is a teaching you might steel yourself for . . . If I was in the Buddha removal service, I might have left a piece of the Heart Sutra as a substitute . . . :crazy:
That may be true in Cambodia. Not sure. But in Thailand it is due virtually entirely to theft.
Muslims destroy Buddhas and temples at every opportunity. So theft is surely not the case then-as was recently seen with two ancient Buddhist statues.
too bad they cannot destroy every buddha statue in existence and we can go back to the symbol of the dhamma simply being the foot with the wheel at the heel :P instead of this idol worship and putting such importance on an item of stone or wood.
They may even create good kamma in doing so, freeing us from idol bondage LOL.
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
That may be true in Cambodia. Not sure. But in Thailand it is due virtually entirely to theft.
Muslims destroy Buddhas and temples at every opportunity. So theft is surely not the case then-as was recently seen with two ancient Buddhist statues.
too bad they cannot destroy every buddha statue in existence and we can go back to the symbol of the dhamma simply being the foot with the wheel at the heel :P instead of this idol worship and putting such importance on an item of stone or wood.
They may even create good kamma in doing so, freeing us from idol bondage LOL.
lol... Could be, could be. Not quite sure what intent would play in there.
I don't see anything wrong with statues of Buddha or see them as idols because I think to worship Buddha is to miss the Buddha. Then again I always pull out the glue when I break my own. Chips give them character anyhow.
That may be true in Cambodia. Not sure. But in Thailand it is due virtually entirely to theft.
Muslims destroy Buddhas and temples at every opportunity. So theft is surely not the case then-as was recently seen with two ancient Buddhist statues.
too bad they cannot destroy every buddha statue in existence and we can go back to the symbol of the dhamma simply being the foot with the wheel at the heel :P instead of this idol worship and putting such importance on an item of stone or wood.
They may even create good kamma in doing so, freeing us from idol bondage LOL.
lol... Could be, could be. Not quite sure what intent would play in there.
I don't see anything wrong with statues of Buddha or see them as idols because I think to worship Buddha is to miss the Buddha. Then again I always pull out the glue when I break my own. Chips give them character anyhow.
my post was partially in jest and partially true. I Just don't feel we should stir up judgment because people blew up(or stole) a few stone statues and decided to go the opposite way
That may be true in Cambodia. Not sure. But in Thailand it is due virtually entirely to theft.
Muslims destroy Buddhas and temples at every opportunity. So theft is surely not the case then-as was recently seen with two ancient Buddhist statues.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
I thought more about this post last evening.
There are three ways that significant numbers of Buddha heads disappeared in Thailand:
1. During wars between the Burmese and Thais, some Siamese cities were sacked and looted by the Burmese. Some Buddhas were melted down in the old Capital if they were made of gold (which led to a common practice throughout Siam of covering gold Buddhas with other materials making them look not valuable (hence the Golden Buddha in Bangkok, although this is only one example). The Burmese were not Muslim, they were Buddhist.
2. As Siam opened up to the west, museum collectors looted the heads of many Buddha statues, and this continued through the Vietnam War era ( you can read about a most infamous account of a lintel stolen during that war by searching (stolen lintel + Phanom Rung; this is actually a door lintel which is Hindu from before that area of present-day Thailand was ruled by a Buddhist king; however, the principle is the same). Again, that has nothing to do with Muslims. Hundreds of Buddha heads are in Western museums; they were taken illegally; some grace displays, other remain in storage areas.
3. At the same time, private thieves chopped off more heads and sold them to private collectors of antiquities throughout the West. Again, that has nothing to do with Muslims.
4. The two statues destroyed by Muslims that you are probably talking about were in Afghanistan. And that has nothing to do with Thailand. I suppose it's possible a small number of Buddhas have been destroyed in the area of Yala, Narithawat, and Pattani in the three provinces bordering Malaysia in the deep south since the insurgency began, but that is minimal. I've visited Thai Buddhist temples in that area and personally never saw any destruction or defacement.
That may be true in Cambodia. Not sure. But in Thailand it is due virtually entirely to theft.
Muslims destroy Buddhas and temples at every opportunity. So theft is surely not the case then-as was recently seen with two ancient Buddhist statues.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
History: Around 800 AD when the Mogul empire engulfed India, the Muslims were pretty hard on the Hindus but they killed all of the Buddhists and destroyed all vestiges of their temples and other works. The Muslims consider Buddhists athiests and the Koran enjoins all Muslims to kill all athiests and destroy their works. Recently in Afghanistan (?) there were two statues, huge and a couple thousand years old. They were destroyed because they were an abomination. This has always been the policy of Islam. So, in the case of Muslims theft is definitely not the motive. History and the Koran make that clear. Best
Dennis, the discussion you originally responded to was about Thailand. Now you are mixing in Afghanistan and other regions. Personally, I have no expertise on the areas you have tried to bring into the conversation. What I said originally and later was about Thailand. Period. If you want to write about other regions, fine...just don't bring my posts about Thailand into it.
That may be true in Cambodia. Not sure. But in Thailand it is due virtually entirely to theft.
Muslims destroy Buddhas and temples at every opportunity. So theft is surely not the case then-as was recently seen with two ancient Buddhist statues.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
I thought more about this post last evening.
There are three ways that significant numbers of Buddha heads disappeared in Thailand:
Yes. Of course. I was pointing out that there were reasons other than theft for Buddha statues to disappear. And giving the Afghan incident as an example. I suppose I have some upset with hatred of Buddhists and I was letting it spill out improperly. Thank you for the correction. Best
As for Idolatry, I think the object has to be considered a God before it can be worshiped. I have Buddhas but I don't worship them. I use them as objects which remind me to keep the Buddha's teachings in mind. I don't think the Buddha considered himself a God-I don't. The idea from Christianity and Judaism is easily carried over to Buddhism. I think that is improper. I also think the Hindus are not Idolaters in the sense the Christians mean. When the Children of Israel put up the Golden Calf they were worshipping the calf. Jehovah punished them for being duplicitous and placing their ideals in an object rather than in him as a spirit. I don't see statues of the Buddha or the wheel or stupas or vajras in that light at all. Opinions vary but I appreciate the idea of a vajra and...as aids to mindfulness.
Dennis, the discussion you originally responded to was about Thailand. Now you are mixing in Afghanistan and other regions. Personally, I have no expertise on the areas you have tried to bring into the conversation. What I said originally and later was about Thailand. Period. If you want to write about other regions, fine...just don't bring my posts about Thailand into it.
Sure: I was really only responding to the idea that sometimes theft is involved and sometimes destruction out of hatred. Also I probably erroneously linked Burma and Thailand because of the Buddhist/Muslim problems thay are having. I will try to be more circumspect when entering your venue. mtgby
Comments
Whoops.
In this picture from Ankor Wat the Buddha images have been scratched out at some time when Buddhism was not the current religion. Thousands of Buddha images have been destroyed there, some as recently as during Pol Pot's regime.
http://www.leisure.food-recipe-cooking.com/ayuthaya-temples-places-in-thailand-01.htm
I am sending the drones out to my priceless garden Buddha for a comment . . .
:buck:
There -- more than you ever wanted to know about Thai history and current events!
Any questions?
You do know that they are having the biggest demonstrations currently since the riots 3 years ago?
They said there was a man in the car"
Good description of the suspect, Sgt Friday.
APB....We're looking for a man.
I don't know why, but that last line tickled me..... hahaha
Maybe it's just the way it's written....
It's a vacation till feb 20. I will only be in Bangkok for one night then heading down to Krabi town. Some diving at koh Lanta maybe then head to Indonesia for a month. When I get back to Thailand I'll likely go straight up north. Bangkok is ok,but there is not much for me there.
You mean for the thieves???
If you haven't been to Wat Tham Seua in Krabi, I highly recommend it. THe walk back to the forest-like setting of kutis is very interesting. And, I highly recommend the steps up to the panorama view of the region, although it is a very strenuous climb.
I envy you Indonesia!
If I was in the Buddha removal service, I might have left a piece of the Heart Sutra as a substitute . . .
:crazy:
They may even create good kamma in doing so, freeing us from idol bondage LOL.
I don't see anything wrong with statues of Buddha or see them as idols because I think to worship Buddha is to miss the Buddha. Then again I always pull out the glue when I break my own. Chips give them character anyhow.
There are three ways that significant numbers of Buddha heads disappeared in Thailand:
1. During wars between the Burmese and Thais, some Siamese cities were sacked and looted by the Burmese. Some Buddhas were melted down in the old Capital if they were made of gold (which led to a common practice throughout Siam of covering gold Buddhas with other materials making them look not valuable (hence the Golden Buddha in Bangkok, although this is only one example). The Burmese were not Muslim, they were Buddhist.
2. As Siam opened up to the west, museum collectors looted the heads of many Buddha statues, and this continued through the Vietnam War era ( you can read about a most infamous account of a lintel stolen during that war by searching (stolen lintel + Phanom Rung; this is actually a door lintel which is Hindu from before that area of present-day Thailand was ruled by a Buddhist king; however, the principle is the same). Again, that has nothing to do with Muslims. Hundreds of Buddha heads are in Western museums; they were taken illegally; some grace displays, other remain in storage areas.
3. At the same time, private thieves chopped off more heads and sold them to private collectors of antiquities throughout the West. Again, that has nothing to do with Muslims.
4. The two statues destroyed by Muslims that you are probably talking about were in Afghanistan. And that has nothing to do with Thailand. I suppose it's possible a small number of Buddhas have been destroyed in the area of Yala, Narithawat, and Pattani in the three provinces bordering Malaysia in the deep south since the insurgency began, but that is minimal. I've visited Thai Buddhist temples in that area and personally never saw any destruction or defacement.
Actually, I am going there next week to watch cricket....I'll keep an eye out for them.
I have Buddhas but I don't worship them. I use them as objects which remind me to keep the Buddha's teachings in mind. I don't think the Buddha considered himself a God-I don't. The idea from Christianity and Judaism is easily carried over to Buddhism.
I think that is improper. I also think the Hindus are not Idolaters in the sense the Christians mean. When the Children of Israel put up the Golden Calf they were worshipping the calf. Jehovah punished them for being duplicitous and placing their ideals in an object rather than in him as a spirit. I don't see statues of the Buddha or the wheel or stupas or vajras in that light at all. Opinions vary but I appreciate the idea of a vajra and...as aids to mindfulness.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/19/world/19TALI.html