How much persecution is a new Buddhist signing up for?

matthewmartin

I was reading some atheist literature and I was struck by the story about an high school student that got kicked off a basketball team at a public highschool for not participating in the Christian rites. It dawns on me that from the Christian standpoint, I'm an atheist, and probably most US Buddhist are since a typical belief in the supernatural is either missing, or it doesn't entail an immortal, sentient creator, or it entails a difficult to explain idea about monism. [Yeah, yeah, I know Vairocana and Amitabha might make an anti-atheist happy, but not not the anti-non-Christian and not all Buddhisms entail anything that looks like monism, Vaoirocana or Amitabha]

Anyone have stories about persecution (all along the scale, from refusal to accommodate to being fed to lions)? What would the Buddhist way to deal with it?

Chaz

I've been a Buddhist for over 10 years and have never faced persecution.

I know a guy who makes amazing Taiko drums. He approached a highly regarded Taiko troupe based in the local Jodo Shinshu temple and was rejected because he wasn't a Buddhist.

The door swings both ways, I'm afraid.

vinlyn

I suppose it depends on where you live. Living in the suburbs of Washington, D.C., even as a school principal, I never had anyone bat an eye lash over it. I didn't go out and broadcast it, but it was no secret. The few people who inquired about it seemed genuinely interested in my decision.

Dakini

How would anyone know you're a Buddhist? Do you plan to tell people? The case cited was a freak thing. Prayer circles by law aren't allowed in public schools, and the family won the lawsuit. In gradeschool, when I declined to participate in the morning prayer at assembly (in a private school), no one noticed. Nobody cared. It's not a big deal, unless you live in the Bible Belt, or some other Christian conservative locale.

genkaku

The enthusiasm of being a "new Buddhist" may include the insistence on telling everyone in the neighborhood about your 'life-changing' decision. It was such a big step, right?

But in the same way I don't expect others to love chocolate as much as I do or hate anchovies as much as I do, it's hardly unusual when Buddhism doesn't strike a sympathetic or accepting chord with others. And I hardly ever sit around licking my everyone's-picking-on-me wounds when someone doesn't agree with me about chocolate or anchovies or Buddhism... though I may have an occasional thought about how foolish they are.

vinlyn

Dakini said:

How would anyone know you're a Buddhist? Do you plan to tell people? The case cited was a freak thing. Prayer circles by law aren't allowed in public schools, and the family won the lawsuit. In gradeschool, when I declined to participate in the morning prayer at assembly (in a private school), no one noticed. Nobody cared. It's not a big deal, unless you live in the Bible Belt, or some other Christian conservative locale.

Actually, at least in Virginia, prayer circles are allowed in schools IF they are generated by students. They must find a faculty member willing to supervise -- though not be involved in -- the activity.

BhikkhuJayasara

Ive never had any issues at all. The monastery i visit is Bhavana Society in the mountains of west Virginia(moonshine territory) and when i walk down the road people know im from the monastery, they still wave at me or wave back when i wave.

I think most people only have issues when they are put in a position that makes them feel defensive in some way or another. If you are calm, peaceful, and smiling, you dont give reason for escation.

Just dont start telling everyone a about how wonderful buddhism is and how its changed you life.. Thats as bad as telling people about your kids lol, no one cares or wants to know. The way you spread dhamma is by LIVING dhamma, people notice and some may ask questions, then you babble.

Zero

matthewmartin said:

I was reading some atheist literature and I was struck by the story....
It dawns on me that from the Christian standpoint...
Anyone have stories about persecution....
What would the Buddhist way to deal with it?

Read the whole story.
You're not a Christian or a participant in the issues - what purpose is served by the fictitious standpoint?
Careful what is propogated.
Not sure I can speak for buddhism but I think dealing with what is on your plate is sufficiently time consuming.

matthewmartin

Dakini said:

How would anyone know you're a Buddhist?

People are smart. At the office, I've inferred pretty much everyone's political party and religion. They drop clues, they don't need to flash their respective membership cards.

One doesn't have to be a parody of Christian evangelism to get outed. That fact that we see that secrecy about religious beliefs to be the default and ordinary state of things is telling.

And more importantly, what a lousy social system we have going if we have to keep such facts secret. (I think recently elsewhere on the board there was a discussion on what symbols one can wear before you offend the areligious or differently religious)

re: geography (mentioned by several people)
The part about there being 2 Americas though is instructive-- if you're in one, it's hard to believe that the other one exists.

AllbuddhaBound

Sometime lots of persecution - even from fellow Buddhists.

vinlyn

AllbuddhaBound said:

Sometime lots of persecution - even from fellow Buddhists.

Please explain, keeping in mind that "persecution" is a pretty serious term.

AllbuddhaBound

Do you really believe that Buddhists are above persecuting someone?

Chaz

AllbuddhaBound said:

Do you really believe that Buddhists are above persecuting someone?

You make it sound like you're being persecuted.

If that's the case, I'd like to know what forms that persecution takes.

If you don't mind ......

vinlyn

AllbuddhaBound said:

Do you really believe that Buddhists are above persecuting someone?

Of course not. But I'm asking you for some actual examples of "persecution" you are aware of of Buddhists in the United States (which is what the OP was addressing.

Chaz

vinlyn said:

AllbuddhaBound said:

Do you really believe that Buddhists are above persecuting someone?

Of course not. But I'm asking you for some actual examples of "persecution" you are aware of of Buddhists in the United States (which is what the OP was addressing.

There are forums where American Buddhists affiliated with NKT have been persecuted. The old eSangha board was notorious for this. They haven't been thrown to the lions or anything that drastic, but the prevailing attitude has been one of both supression and repression.

If you wanted to get a job at Focus on the Family and let it be known you were a Buddhist, you'd be denied the job. I've heard tell that people revealing their non-Christian beliefs have been termniated afterwards. All within the law, of course, but it's still a form of persecution in my mind.

Dakini

matthewmartin said:

That fact that we see that secrecy about religious beliefs to be the default and ordinary state of things is telling.

And more importantly, what a lousy social system we have going if we have to keep such facts secret.

I wasn't advocating keeping secrets. In many parts of the West Coast where I've lived, one just doesn't discuss one's religion or lack thereof. It's considered a personal matter, and it's kept personal. That's all. It simply never comes up in conversation.

vinlyn

Chaz said:

...

If you wanted to get a job at Focus on the Family and let it be known you were a Buddhist, you'd be denied the job. I've heard tell that people revealing their non-Christian beliefs have been termniated afterwards. All within the law, of course, but it's still a form of persecution in my mind.

In re situations like Focus On The Family, I think that only Christians should be hired, when at all possible. At a Buddhist temple I think only Buddhists should be hired, when at all possible. I think to do so is hardly "persecution".

Chaz

vinlyn said:

In re situations like Focus On The Family, I think that only Christians should be hired, when at all possible. At a Buddhist temple I think only Buddhists should be hired, when at all possible. I think to do so is hardly "persecution".

I'm not sure I agree.

I'm a programmer and I like to think a pretty one. My religious beliefs are irrelevant to that. I should be considered for as programming job, solely on the basis of my skill and experience. I can program as well as any Christian and perhaps better than some. In most aspects of life it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of religion. Programming isn't a religious pursuit. I don't have a problem with FOTF's religion. If they don't want me because they've got someone netter, I have no complaint, but if it's because of my beliefs, then there's a problem.

vinlyn

I'm glad you're pretty!

vinlyn

Is that how computer programmers get their jobs nowadays? Casting couches?

ExpedientMeans

I never persecuted anyone, but for years I kind of rolled my eyes when I read about or heard someone claiming to be a Buddhist (if they didn't grow up in or were descended from a predominantly Buddhist culture). Not out of strict devotion to Christianity, but because I always kind of instinctually lumped Buddhists together with the New Age crowd. Now I know that I was wrong, and that the New Age people are basically ripping off things from the centuries old Buddhist (as well as Hindu, Native American, etc.) traditions and capitalizing off them, and that real Buddhism has nothing to do with the New Age crowd (which made me even more irked by them).

But my point is, I come from a place that a lot of people on either coast might consider to be the "other America", yet I never really picked up on any Christianity-inspired discrimination against Buddhists. Muslims, yes, especially after 9/11, but most people are respectful of most other world religions, especially a non-confrontational one like Buddhism.

It's not as close minded as you might think. A white person in my area might get some strange looks or laughs if they announce they're a Buddhist, but not because they're viewed as a devil-worshipping anti-christ. Because they're viewed as being the same as any New Age hippie or hipster. I'm not saying it's right to oversimplify someone's religious views like that, I'm just saying that Christianity isn't really what inspires it.

lobster

Today I was at a Remberance day for Tamils who have been killed by the Buddhist backed government. As we came into the Excel hall where the event was staged, the wicked sword wielding Buddhist monk was killing innocents in an enactment of the Sri Lankans Governments continuing efforts to oust all but Buddhism. One State under Dharma. Shameful.

Time some Western Buddhists explained the Buddhist dharma to her wayward sons?

Power and authority can lead to the very real desire to persecute the anchovy haters (as a lobster, I can barely comprehend fish haters).

As Christians, Buddhists, Moslems but above all people of good will, we can do better than throw heretics to the lions. We can be Hindu heretics like the Buddha, Judaic heretics like Christ and Pagan heretics like Mohammad. Can we stand with the dukkha laden, persecuted and generally dharmically impure?

Do you remember the Onion joke thread about 'Dharma militancy'. We are the persecutors, the persecuted and the solution.

Be kind, one day it will catch on . . .
:om:

matthewmartin

ExpedientMeans said:

A white person in my area might get some strange looks or laughs if they announce they're a Buddhist, but not because they're viewed as a devil-worshipping anti-christ. Because they're viewed as being the same as any New Age hippie or hipster.

I agree, people who might be the sort of who would persecute (not naming any names now!), are unlikely to have any depth of familiarity with what Buddhism is. If I had a nickle for every time someone said the formula "Well, I don't care who you worship, be it God, Allah or Buddha" I'd have a stack of nickles. The formula sounded wrong because it implied that they are all monotheistic religions with different names for the man in the sky with the beard who we pray to to save us from the fires of hell.

I think not even in social studies did they spend enough time on Buddhism to convey that Buddhism comes in many flavors-- atheist, polytheistic & Pure Land. (And it was a pretty fair coverage of world religions as high school history classes go).

Chaz

vinlyn said:

Is that how computer programmers get their jobs nowadays? Casting couches?

Don't push your luck ......

Dennis1

I think Buddhists are treated fairly-for the most part. Of course Dar Al Islam makes war and kills all Buddhists but that is exceptional. Christians, Jews, Hindus, all treat Buddhists with normal consideration. My family is Christian and they would all like to save me from my lost ways but they don't abuse me and they allow me my decisions and devotion.
Most people prefer the company of people a lot like themselves. This is normal. If I
feel the pressure of proselytizing fervor I let people know I am a devoted Buddhist.
If I am perhaps a little less welcome I don't feel slighted-it is normal. I don't try to convert or do heavy preaching to those who don't ask.

I am very happy to have this group where we are pretty much in agreement with the Buddha's teachings. It's a real pleasure to speak out and be well received.
I think feeling persecuted arises from undue concern for one's own position or opinions.
I try not to get involved in that-I expect better of myself. I hope you are well received
and feel comfortable as a Buddhist. May the good be yours. Best, Dennis

Jeffrey

I think feeling persecuted arises from undue concern for one's own position or opinions.

I like this.

hermitwin

The law of karma means that the persecutor
will reap the fruits of the seeds that he sows.

matthewmartin said:

I was reading some atheist literature and I was struck by the story about an high school student that got kicked off a basketball team at a public highschool for not participating in the Christian rites. It dawns on me that from the Christian standpoint, I'm an atheist, and probably most US Buddhist are since a typical belief in the supernatural is either missing, or it doesn't entail an immortal, sentient creator, or it entails a difficult to explain idea about monism. [Yeah, yeah, I know Vairocana and Amitabha might make an anti-atheist happy, but not not the anti-non-Christian and not all Buddhisms entail anything that looks like monism, Vaoirocana or Amitabha]

Anyone have stories about persecution (all along the scale, from refusal to accommodate to being fed to lions)? What would the Buddhist way to deal with it?

BhikkhuJayasara

Jeffrey said:

I think feeling persecuted arises from undue concern for one's own position or opinions.

I like this.

agreed..

vinlyn

Dennis1 said:

...
I am very happy to have this group where we are pretty much in agreement with the Buddha's teachings. ...

That's actually a very good way of describing "us".

seeker242

matthewmartin said:

What would the Buddhist way to deal with it?

"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves."

Although, easier said than done!

ExpedientMeans

seeker242 said:

matthewmartin said:

What would the Buddhist way to deal with it?

"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves."

Although, easier said than done!

Hi, that was a great quote! What is it from, if you don't mind me asking?

BhikkhuJayasara

Its the saw sutta

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.021x.than.html