Suffering because others are suffering...

Tosh

I'm normally okay with the suffering of others, as in I do my best to help, and don't worry too much about the results, but just recently in A.A. we've been swamped with newcomers and some of them are in really tight-situations. I had to give a middle-aged lady money for food this evening; she has absolutely nothing; not even a change of clothing; her husband has kicked her out and she's living in a hostel. She's four days sober and just looks suicidal; she couldn't stop crying at our meeting.

Then there's another lady who phoned me today. Her life is going pear-shaped, she's going to have her child taken off her and put into care. She's desperate to get her shit together and keep her child, but can't stop drinking. Her absence from this evenings meeting was ominous.

A guy, John, was a school teacher, lost the job, wife, car, driving license, all respect, hope of life rambled on at our meeting until I was forced to ask him to stop (I asked kindly, saying I'm really glad he was here, but...).

The lady who couldn't stop crying, I just wanted to take her home and feed her chicken soup; but Mrs Tosh would've kicked off.

And then I called into the supermarket on the way home to pick up some supplies and the Christmas music was blasting out, "When a child is born". And I felt so sad for these people and kind of angry at the universe too. I hope they all can get their shit together, we'll try our best to help them in anyway we can, but I usually think they're fucked.

Sad isn't it! I guess I could meditate on the emptiness of the situation, but I think I'll just wallow in my self pity for others (that's what it feels like) right now.

Apologies for my stream-of-consciousness post. It's good to share.

Jeffrey

Sounds like you are deeply touched by those cases. I agree we can't be totally happy in a world where others are suffering. That's the difference (one) between a pureland (dharma realm) and heaven. In heaven those sad cases are expelled from the mandala. But in a pureland the people make their hearts bigger and accept that there will be suffering for other beings.

anataman

This appears to be a nexus...

“Prayer is not asking. It is a longing of the soul. It is daily admission of one's weakness. It is better in prayer to have a heart without words than words without a heart.”
― Mahatma Gandhi

May everyones prayers be with you at this difficult time when all expectations are too much to bear.

Dennis1

A Buddhist can quickly handle their own life and mostly end personal suffering. The reason the 4 noble truths are noble is that they embrace the suffering of others. There is no easy solution for the suffering of others. I know the development of equanimity
helps salve the situation but this has never worked for me. I admit I've never really worked at equanimity. For self there are natural consequences of practice that create joy and a lack of concern for the small self. The Paramitas make this hard when applied to others. I have never found a solution to your problem-after 48 years of devotion.
Maybe that is part of self perfection. We suffer for the sake of others but we accept that and don't run for cover. May the good be yours. You deserve all of the best for you and your loved ones.

lobster

we'll try our best to help them in anyway we can

Welcome to picnicking in the hell realms. Where are the bodhisattva vowers when you need them?

:thumbsup:

and now back to the first noble truth . . . self pity, enough already . . .

BhikkhuJayasara

Many of the cases you described are very familiar to me as someone who worked child protective services for 7 years(still do actually , but I recruit foster homes now). You can really see the effects of kamma(and I don't mean supernatural, I mean in this life) in the lives of people like this. An example can be when someone finally decides to do the right thing and change their life, but then BAM an old warrant from failure to show up at court from a dwi, they get arrested, and they are back in jail which spirals them down to the depths. Even when they wanted to start again the results of their old actions came back. it's really tough to get out of that mire.

a very wise man I know has a saying, and no he's not a buddhist, he's actually a former special forces solider. He always likes to say " it could always be worse". No matter how bad you think your life is going right now, there are people suffering far worse.

think about even the people you described, their suffering is nothing compared to some people in Africa and a dozen other places where survival is a daily struggle.

all beings have their own kamma and lives to work through, you cannot change that, you can offer kind words and deeds to be the one nice person who was a positive influence in their life that day. If they are closer to you , then you can offer more, but it will be up to them to accept the help.

people have always suffered , and always will, nothing you can do will change that. The only suffering you have direct control over is your own.

Hamsaka

I no longer drink alcohol either, have gone 'round with it twice now. Many alcoholic family members, the Irish problem. It is an out and out poison to me, end of story, even a drop of it.

A coworker of mine recently suicided. Several of us knew of her alcohol problem, I saw her hands shake at work. She came to work drunk one day, got sent home, and never came back, so had to be 'let go'. Management went ALL OUT to get her help, they did not want to have to fire her, but she refused or was unable to cooperate with their efforts to save her job. A month or so later, she killed herself. Turned out she also had legal issues, got in a slapping match with her boyfriend who called the police, so she had significant "consequences", to put it mildly.

She was hilarious, light hearted (appearing), the patients liked her and she'd survived breast cancer not five years ago. She had adult children and many friends.

What was different between her and me? And over the years, several other nurses who've disclosed alcoholism in themselves?

My heart still aches for her, and her children.

Of course there are many ten-thousands of more ways to suffer, but it's those you've suffered yourself that are particularly painful to bear.

I wonder @Tosh about your use of the word "suffering" for yourself? In a strictly Buddhist sense of the word "suffering" or "dukkha". Not to be nitpicky, I'm very not nitpicky, but our unconscious mind hears these words come out of our mouths (or fingers when typing) and my unconscious needs all the help it can get. Compassion is often exquisitely painful, an agony sometimes, but is it really dukkha? I suppose, yes, it can be . . . but with our Siddhartha Gotama the Buddha Toolbox, this pain can be transformed into strength and devotion to our fellows who suffer from addictions to alcohol.

Not that I ever remember how to name the source, but in some sutta somewhere (lol) the Buddha and one of his buds were walking along and the Buddha trod upon a large thorn, went right into his foot. He hopped around grimacing (I'm paraphrasing) and his sensitive disciple saw an opportunity to learn something and asked the Buddha if he was suffering. "Not at all," said the Buddha, wincing as he pulled the thorn from his foot, "but it hurts like hell."

Only Buddhists would parse out pain and suffering, you know? I strongly sense the difference is important in our awakening, and in how we relate to our fellows who suffer.

Gassho

pegembara

"Whenever someone announces, 'I want to follow the Bodhisattva path because I want to save all sentient beings... for I vow to lead every individual being to Nirvana; and not until they are all safely there will I reap my reward and enter Nirvana!'... you should remind such a vow-taker that even if such uncountable numbers of beings were so liberated, in reality no beings would have been liberated. A Bodhisattva does not cling to the illusion of separate individuality or ego-entity or personal identification. In reality, there is no 'I' who liberates and no 'they' who are liberated."

Diamond Sutra

http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond_sutra_text/page25.html

Jainarayan

Jayantha said:

a very wise man I know has a saying, and no he's not a buddhist, he's actually a former special forces solider. He always likes to say " it could always be worse". No matter how bad you think your life is going right now, there are people suffering far worse.

think about even the people you described, their suffering is nothing compared to some people in Africa and a dozen other places where survival is a daily struggle.

all beings have their own kamma and lives to work through, you cannot change that, you can offer kind words and deeds to be the one nice person who was a positive influence in their life that day. If they are closer to you , then you can offer more, but it will be up to them to accept the help.

people have always suffered , and always will, nothing you can do will change that. The only suffering you have direct control over is your own.

I absolutely agree with @Jayantha, @Tosh. I feel your anguish. I too have the same feelings you have. It can be really bad at times, but at the risk of sounding cold and un-compassionate, we cannot save the world. We can only do what we can do.

David

Sad but heart warming at the same time. These people are at least fortunate to have you.

Sometimes all we can do is be there and listen.

I think you are a light in the darkness for the empathy you show. Don't.be too sad.

pyramidsong

Tosh said:

I'm normally okay with the suffering of others, as in I do my best to help, and don't worry too much about the results, but just recently in A.A. we've been swamped with newcomers and some of them are in really tight-situations. I had to give a middle-aged lady money for food this evening; she has absolutely nothing; not even a change of clothing; her husband has kicked her out and she's living in a hostel. She's four days sober and just looks suicidal; she couldn't stop crying at our meeting.

Then there's another lady who phoned me today. Her life is going pear-shaped, she's going to have her child taken off her and put into care. She's desperate to get her shit together and keep her child, but can't stop drinking. Her absence from this evenings meeting was ominous.

A guy, John, was a school teacher, lost the job, wife, car, driving license, all respect, hope of life rambled on at our meeting until I was forced to ask him to stop (I asked kindly, saying I'm really glad he was here, but...).

The lady who couldn't stop crying, I just wanted to take her home and feed her chicken soup; but Mrs Tosh would've kicked off.

And then I called into the supermarket on the way home to pick up some supplies and the Christmas music was blasting out, "When a child is born". And I felt so sad for these people and kind of angry at the universe too. I hope they all can get their shit together, we'll try our best to help them in anyway we can, but I usually think they're fucked.

Sad isn't it! I guess I could meditate on the emptiness of the situation, but I think I'll just wallow in my self pity for others (that's what it feels like) right now.

Apologies for my stream-of-consciousness post. It's good to share.

Tosh, I find myself feeling very similar a lot of the time, as I'm an animal rights activist and the sheer weight and volume of hopeless and cruel situations I see really threatens to overcome me at times.

Obviously different situations, but very similar emotions at times, I'm sure. I wish I knew what the answer was. I waver between taking time to switch off for my own sanity but then beating myself up for not doing more. As others have said, though, perhaps we can take comfort in the fact we're at least doing something, and although we can't fix it all we are making a small difference to certain individuals. That's worth something. Hugs to you. What you're doing is good and important.

Tosh

pyramidsong said:

Obviously different situations, but very similar emotions at times, I'm sure. I wish I knew what the answer was. I waver between taking time to switch off for my own sanity but then beating myself up for not doing more.

That has got to be heartbreaking stuff. At least with alkies, I know there's a part we've played in our alcoholism and there's lots of resources like hospitals and ambulances; even police cells to help keep us safe.

But animals have it rough; humans can be so cruel. I've even blocked friends who've posted pictures of animal cruelty on facebook - I can't even bare to look it.

Yeh, I guess I'm a softie. Respect for what you're doing.

pyramidsong

Aw, thank you, Tosh. Honestly? I've done the same. I have half my vegan/AR friends' feeds hidden on FB for the same reason. Seeing it all (especially when there was nothing I could do about it) was starting to affect my mental health.

I'm also involved in asylum seeker/refugee rights (I don't know how it is in the US but here in Australia our government's policies are hideously draconian and heartless and there is a massive uproar about it) and I see a lot of sorrow/burnout among activists. But we are slowly making headway and there are people who are happy and safe now. So it's not all hopeless.

Reminding myself of the little things is helpful. When I get down, I think of the skinny, flea-ridden kitten I rescued who is now happy and spoilt and well-fed in his new home etc. Maybe can you write a list of people you know you've helped? Refer to it when you're feeling helpless?

Dennis1

Hamsaka said:
I wonder @Tosh about your use of the word "suffering" for yourself? In a strictly Buddhist sense of the word "suffering" or "dukkha". Not to be nitpicky, I'm very not nitpicky, but our unconscious mind hears these words come out of our mouths (or fingers when typing) and my unconscious needs all the help it can get. Compassion is often exquisitely painful, an agony sometimes, but is it really dukkha? I suppose, yes, it can be . . . but with our Siddhartha Gotama the Buddha Toolbox, this pain can be transformed into strength and devotion to our fellows who suffer from addictions to alcohol.

Well yes, I think this is deeply Bodhi of you. Thank you. You know, I think it is suffering but there is a kind of space in it that doesn't bruise the compassionate heart. Suffering of self has no space.

Tosh

Thanks, @Dennis1. It's passed somewhat now; but I think you're right. I was still peaceful, but it was sad. It's a good motivator to help these people too; maybe that's why compassion is painful? Pain always motivates me (I don't like pain) to do something.

Anyway, I'd better get to work.

seeker242

I take solace in the fact that these beings that are suffering, are already saved from suffering. They are not in any real danger to begin with, never were and never will be. Suffering is born only of illusions and of course illusions aren't actually real. After all is said and done, they will be just fine. In fact, they are fine right now, they just think that they aren't. But that idea is just an illusion, not reality. Because in reality, they have nothing to fear to begin with. But of course, that does not mean you don't try to comfort them, etc.

:om:

BhikkhuJayasara

I found the perfect picture for this topic

vinlyn

You do realize the ant is going to eat the flesh of the snail?

BhikkhuJayasara

Yes, i made the same statement on the page i found it LOL.. But i still like the statement.

footiam

Tosh said:

I'm normally okay with the suffering of others, as in I do my best to help, and don't worry too much about the results, but just recently in A.A. we've been swamped with newcomers and some of them are in really tight-situations. I had to give a middle-aged lady money for food this evening; she has absolutely nothing; not even a change of clothing; her husband has kicked her out and she's living in a hostel. She's four days sober and just looks suicidal; she couldn't stop crying at our meeting.

Then there's another lady who phoned me today. Her life is going pear-shaped, she's going to have her child taken off her and put into care. She's desperate to get her shit together and keep her child, but can't stop drinking. Her absence from this evenings meeting was ominous.

A guy, John, was a school teacher, lost the job, wife, car, driving license, all respect, hope of life rambled on at our meeting until I was forced to ask him to stop (I asked kindly, saying I'm really glad he was here, but...).

The lady who couldn't stop crying, I just wanted to take her home and feed her chicken soup; but Mrs Tosh would've kicked off.

And then I called into the supermarket on the way home to pick up some supplies and the Christmas music was blasting out, "When a child is born". And I felt so sad for these people and kind of angry at the universe too. I hope they all can get their shit together, we'll try our best to help them in anyway we can, but I usually think they're fucked.

Sad isn't it! I guess I could meditate on the emptiness of the situation, but I think I'll just wallow in my self pity for others (that's what it feels like) right now.

Apologies for my stream-of-consciousness post. It's good to share.

Sometimes we suffer because we care. Sometimes we suffer because we are attached. You probably care but sometimes, I wonder if the other party deserves the care we give. Take for instance a cancer victim. Should we suffer because the victim is in pain or should we just amputate a leg here and a hand there so that the victim is not in pain. In some cases, we are so attached to the leg or hand that we have to save it and agonise.

Dennis1

No creatures deserve suffering. The 4 noble truths are noble because our care makes them noble. The condition of the sufferer is irrelevant.

cvalue

@seeker242 said: Suffering is born only of illusions

I agree, I learnt about that too. But, right now I am currently badly hurt because I just discovered my best friend betrayed me. I keep practicing to detach myself from my pain by telling me my hurt feeling is only my imagination, this body hurts, not me, I am not this body.
Unfortunately for me, my hurt feeling is still there, I fail to detach it from me!

Jeffrey

I think that's good to experiment with stepping out of the hurt, @cvalue. It's just a feeling. You don't have to deny the feeling you can just say 'oh that is a thought'. Sounds like you are coping and applying Buddhism to real life. Awesome. For this reason sometimes it is lucky to have some difficulty. You can learn a stronger wisdom/faith in the case that you hit another hard problem.

cvalue

Thanks @Jeffrey for your advise:

You don't have to deny the feeling you can just say 'oh that is a thought'

Yes, this is what I should do. Thanks again.

pegembara

cvalue said:

@seeker242 said: Suffering is born only of illusions

I agree, I learnt about that too. But, right now I am currently badly hurt because I just discovered my best friend betrayed me. I keep practicing to detach myself from my pain by telling me my hurt feeling is only my imagination, this body hurts, not me, I am not this body.
Unfortunately for me, my hurt feeling is still there, I fail to detach it from me!

The feeling is not yours to begin with. It comes when the conditions are there and goes when they aren't. Your task is to deeply realise that.

"Any kind of feeling whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.nymo.html

cvalue

@pegembara said: "The feeling is not yours to begin with. It comes when the conditions are there and goes when they aren't. Your task is to deeply realise that."

Awesome! Thank you for reminding me this. I will practice this. Thanks again.

jae

Hello Tosh...I'm new to this and 4 days new to abstinence of alcohol ....your words touched me, I know little of Buddhism but people like me need people like you ....thanks for caring and understanding

Dennis1

cvalue said:

@seeker242 said: Suffering is born only of illusions

I agree, I learnt about that too. But, right now I am currently badly hurt because I just
discovered my best friend betrayed me. I keep practicing to detach myself from my pain by telling me my hurt feeling is only my imagination, this body hurts, not me, I am not this body.
Unfortunately for me, my hurt feeling is still there, I fail to detach it from me!


Well yeah. Suffering hurts. Take two aspirin and call me in on the mourning.
Sorry to hear your care is dragging you around a bit. Wouldn't do to do without it would it? So long as we identify with the objects of life and living we will experience suffering.
Pristine cognition helps us realize how really unimportant that is-I mean our well being.
But suffering still hurts. mtgby

Theswingisyellow

Tosh many blessings. Thank you for having a wonderfully large heart, thank you for your compassion and caring. What is presented to us, what comes before us dictates what we must do. We act from our core beliefs, even with our best intentions the outcome may be very different from our desires. In my emergency room I see the fruits of many a patients Kamma. I try to keep in mind that although I didn't cause their current issues I do my best not to add to their pain and to ease their suffering, the outcome is another issue. We don't need to bear the suffering of others but we do need to carry our burdens nobly and not be crushed by them. This make us noble. My heart to you my brother.

Theswingisyellow

On another note: Suffering is not an illusion, any more than impermanence or not self. When one has no car no home no food to eat no clothes, unable to care for their children, addicted to drugs or alcohol, this is not an illusion The underpinning of this existence is suffering, we must recognize it for what it is and for what creates it,only then can we begin to untangle the mass that fosters and supports our suffering, but a crying child in front of me or man dying on my gurney is no illusion. They share the pain of this existence, of this birth, so what do I do? Help them. Where I may not cling to outcomes or desires I cannot expect the majority of those who I encounter to do the same. Though we may tame our minds, we may even reach the other shore, we are still subject to time and space. How much more difficult must life be for those with no understanding of these things, forever on the wheel of Samsara?

jae

@theswingisyellow your last sentence speaks volumes to me ..drives me to understand thank you