Mindfulness is not necessary

betaboy

If your goal is nibanna, then it is not necessary. What you need is wisdom - the ability to see the truth about no self, transcience, and sorrow. To do this, one need only relate each event/person to these truths.

A strict regimen is not necessary. See the truth every now and then. That would suffice.

sova

sorry i wasnt paying attention what did you say?

Glow

betaboy said:

the ability to see the truth about no self, transcience, and sorrow. To do this, one need only relate each event/person to these truths.

^ This is actually what the Buddha meant by sati (what is usually translated as "mindfulness"). See the Satipatthana Sutta and the Anapanasati Sutta.

betaboy

^Thanks. Most people get the wrong idea when they hear the words 'mindfulness' or 'awareness' etc. They think it is some continuous process where a person has to sustain awareness over an extended period. It is not. It is simply an insight into things, happens in a moment and nothing to do with extended time periods.

lobster

some people spend decades in awareness
as usual @Betaboy, you are unaware, so now a little insight for you . . . :wave:

robot

betaboy said:

^Thanks. Most people get the wrong idea when they hear the words 'mindfulness' or 'awareness' etc. They think it is some continuous process where a person has to sustain awareness over an extended period. It is not. It is simply an insight into things, happens in a moment and nothing to do with extended time periods.

So what are you doing when you are not being mindful?
Daydreaming about white girls, of course.

betaboy

robot said:

betaboy said:

^Thanks. Most people get the wrong idea when they hear the words 'mindfulness' or 'awareness' etc. They think it is some continuous process where a person has to sustain awareness over an extended period. It is not. It is simply an insight into things, happens in a moment and nothing to do with extended time periods.

So what are you doing when you are not being mindful?
Daydreaming about white girls, of course.

No, that comes next: Jhana.

Citta

betaboy said:

robot said:

betaboy said:

^Thanks. Most people get the wrong idea when they hear the words 'mindfulness' or 'awareness' etc. They think it is some continuous process where a person has to sustain awareness over an extended period. It is not. It is simply an insight into things, happens in a moment and nothing to do with extended time periods.

So what are you doing when you are not being mindful?
Daydreaming about white girls, of course.

No, that comes next: Jhana.

Only as another option.

genkaku

@betaboy -- I might be more convinced by your statements if you were a little less ... uhh ... certain.

Seriously, there are enough people out there already posturing for the Buddhist-wiseman-of-the-year posters. Think about it: Has the applause or genuflection of others in the past ever really been a guarantor of your own grounded peace? Maybe so. I don't know. But I do know that knowing stuff ain't Buddhism.

anataman

Lord Buddha help me - am I really doing the wrong thing? Have I so misunderstood the 4NT/8FP such that I have spent so much time striving to be be present and aware and mindful in everything I do to limit my and others suffering, only to find it's not 'necessary'. Really.

fivebells

Trolling is not necessary.

robot

It is to me!

betaboy

anataman said:

Lord Buddha help me - am I really doing the wrong thing? Have I so misunderstood the 4NT/8FP such that I have spent so much time striving to be be present and aware and mindful in everything I do to limit my and others suffering, only to find it's not 'necessary'. Really.

Not saying 4NT and 8FP are to be tossed out - but ultimately nibanna does not depend on these things. Or on anything. They are simply guides for a better living, that's all, but that can be done even by following Christianity or Hinduism. Nibanna is another matter - no amount of awareness or jhanas, or morality or self-control will get you there.

fivebells

You don't know what you're talking about, betaboy.

lobster

What you need is wisdom - the ability to see the truth about no self, transcience, and sorrow. To do this, one need only relate each event/person to these truths.

A strict regimen is not necessary. See the truth every now and then. That would suffice

It will suffice. Indeed for most of us it does.

As for being aware, seeing, knowing, being mindful of the Truth . . .
well it 'transcends' self, transience and grumpy cat wisdom.



@robot may the naga fill your nets . . . how wonderful . . .

There is lobsterian saying, 'You may know the truth but fish first'

DairyLama

betaboy said:

See the truth every now and then.

The truth is easily forgotten.

genkaku

Forget it, remember it ... it ain't going anywhere.

lobster

@genkaku you iz being naughty . . . :wave:

anataman

betaboy said:

anataman said:

Lord Buddha help me - am I really doing the wrong thing? Have I so misunderstood the 4NT/8FP such that I have spent so much time striving to be be present and aware and mindful in everything I do to limit my and others suffering, only to find it's not 'necessary'. Really.

Not saying 4NT and 8FP are to be tossed out - but ultimately nibanna does not depend on these things. Or on anything. They are simply guides for a better living, that's all, but that can be done even by following Christianity or Hinduism. Nibanna is another matter - no amount of awareness or jhanas, or morality or self-control will get you there.

No you are wrong. Buddhism is about ending suffering. NOT ABOUT LEADING A BETTER LIFE.

Go back and look at the 4 noble truths and see where it really leads. Stop following circular philosophical thoughts and liberate yourself from that academic ego you have developed.

Like a poorly trained dog I command you to sit!

anataman

Oh but I see you have been poorly trained.

wangchuey

betaboy said:

If your goal is nibanna, then it is not necessary. What you need is wisdom - the ability to see the truth about no self, transcience, and sorrow. To do this, one need only relate each event/person to these truths.

A strict regimen is not necessary. See the truth every now and then. That would suffice.

I think the reason why mindfulness is necessary is because we are clouded by ignorance, and defilements. Only by being mindful can we see through them. Without being mindful, we could easily find ourselves back in the drawing board, over and over again.

Jeffrey

betaboy said:

anataman said:

Lord Buddha help me - am I really doing the wrong thing? Have I so misunderstood the 4NT/8FP such that I have spent so much time striving to be be present and aware and mindful in everything I do to limit my and others suffering, only to find it's not 'necessary'. Really.

Not saying 4NT and 8FP are to be tossed out - but ultimately nibanna does not depend on these things. Or on anything. They are simply guides for a better livranna is another matter - no amount of awareness or jhanas, or morality or self-control will get you there.

Is Nirvana conditioned by right view? It can;t be since Nirvana is unconditioned. So is right view itself unconditioned or conditioned? Is right view "knowing stuff?"

upekka

if you do not know the perception is mind creation then you are (in viparinama dukka) going from birth to old age

if you do not accept the feelings (with equanimity) then you identified yourself as painful feeling (having dukka dukka)

if you are not "Mindful" you will create unnecessary thoughts (sankhara dukka) which is the cause for rebirth

So

is Mindfulness necessary?

how

Mindfulness is not necessary???
Hmmmmmmmmm

What was the question again?

Daiva

If you've transcended the need for mindfulness which defines/provide insight into our time-constrained samsara then you've achieved a state of timeless eternal single moment enlightenment/nirvana. Congrats.

fivebells

@Jeffrey, the factors of the 8FP lead to awakening, but they do not cause it. One analogy from the suttas is that a path which leads to a garden does not cause the garden, it just takes you there.

Jeffrey

@fivebells, The path is a contributing factor of the panoramic experience of seeing a garden. For example the moon is reflected in a pool of water. The water doesn't cause the moon, but it does cause the experience of the moon in the water. Without both the moon, the water, the eye, and the eye consciousness we would not experience the moon in the water. So the garden would be linked to many other conditional things. That's only the literal garden. It is hard for me to posit an analogy of explaining unconditional awareness in terms of an analogy. The waves and the water is one analogy. Or you could say that the essence when all categorizing is stripped away could be unconditional awareness.

Thus I am saying that all experiences are dependently originated aside from the unconditioned. I cannot perceive what Nirvana would be in the world of causes and conditions. I usually say it is Rigpa or Openness, Clarity, and Sensitivity and the like which are ideas about how consciousness is. The ideas are just ideas but we already have Rigpa so we don't need to manufacture it or coax it to make it pleasure.

lobster

fivebells said:

You don't know what you're talking about, betaboy.

:clap:
We will have to hope some aspects of that 'don't know' mind are retained, whilst we fill in the ignorance . . .

I like the garden analogy and how @Jeffery describes it as Rigpa. The garden analogy is used extensively in Sufism . . .

Perhaps like this:

You are a garden.
Grown, Pruned, Nurtured.
You are a gardener.
Planting, growing, tending.
You are a rose.
Thorned, budded, blooming.
You are seasoned.
You are fertile.
You are worked.
You are a tree.
Sheltering, reaching, rooted.
You are a path, a fountain, a statue, a bridge.
Hello Garden.

:wave:

betaboy

I think there's been some misunderstanding. When I said mindfulness is unnecessary, I didn't mean 'stupor', or that you remain unconscious, or whatever. It simply means you don't strain yourself to be aware every moment - that only creates more anxiety and pain. You simply rest in your true nature and allow things to happen (as they inevitably will, just like breathing). There is no awareness as in observer-observation duality. There is only living.

sova

Anyway, I liked the OP because it's true, the FNT strike clarity in a single moment.

Now practice swapping seats with everyone.

misecmisc1

betaboy said:

Nibanna is another matter - no amount of awareness or jhanas, or morality or self-control will get you there.

As per Buddha's teachings, without these things (awareness or jhana or morality or self-control), you will also not get there (at Nibanna).

lobster

Well grumpy cat seems to be doing good

You simply rest in your true nature

Well said. Wassat?
True nature?
Is it a bird, is it a plane, no it's true nature?

Is that our ID, Id, intuition, hindrances, nibanna?
What is this 'true nature' you speak of?

We seek him here, we seek him there,
Those Buddhies seek him everywhere.
Is he in heaven?—Is he in hell?
That demmed, elusive Pimpernel.
Sir Percy Blakeney

:wave:

Jeffrey

True nature? It doesn't leave a trace.

Sogyal Rinpoche: "in two words.. be spacious"

betaboy

@lobster, you know I love you but I have to ask: you've been 'stalking' me lately, why?

betaboy

Jeffrey said:

True nature? It doesn't leave a trace.

Sogyal Rinpoche: "in two words.. be spacious"

I tell my gf that, but for a different reason.

lobster

betaboy said:

@lobster, you know I love you

Many thanks. Keep up the good work, extend to yourself, stalkers and anyone who knows 'your true nature'. As a loving act I will reflect your propensity to answer direct questions . . .

and now back to the observation . . .

:wave:

DairyLama

Jeffrey said:

Sogyal Rinpoche: "in two words.. be spacious"

Though as I remember it Sogyal was always very vague on how to "be spacious"...

DairyLama

betaboy said:

. Most people get the wrong idea when they hear the words 'mindfulness' or 'awareness' etc. They think it is some continuous process where a person has to sustain awareness over an extended period. It is not.

Yes it is - according to the Satipatthana Sutta anyway.

droogiefret

betaboy said:

If your goal is nibanna, then it is not necessary. What you need is wisdom - the ability to see the truth about no self, transcience, and sorrow. To do this, one need only relate each event/person to these truths.

A strict regimen is not necessary. See the truth every now and then. That would suffice.

What if my goal isn't nibanna? Can I still get away with it?

anataman

SOGYAL RINPOCHE:

'it is the recognition that recognises the recognition!'

DairyLama

anataman said:

SOGYAL RINPOCHE:
'it is the recognition that recognises the recognition!'

What does that mean?

anataman

Sit mindfully and reflect on these words and perhaps you will see what you are looking for in your other thread @Spinynorman.

Chaz

SpinyNorman said:

anataman said:

SOGYAL RINPOCHE:
'it is the recognition that recognises the recognition!'

What does that mean?

That's what meditation is for, Norm!

DairyLama

anataman said:

Sit mindfully and reflect on these words and perhaps you will see what you are looking for in your other thread @Spinynorman.

I'm struggling with the language. What does he mean by "recognition"?

DairyLama

Chaz said:

SpinyNorman said:

anataman said:

SOGYAL RINPOCHE:
'it is the recognition that recognises the recognition!'

What does that mean?

That's what meditation is for, Norm!

I don't do koans.

Chaz

^^ Nothing Koan-ish about it. That's what analytical meditation is for, to get to the root of these rather obscure teaching, such as the one we were offered.

Kinda like the teaching that enlightenment is like when a wave realizes it's water. No easier answer to the questions that arrive with those teaching and you'll never get the answer from studying sutta. That leaves only two choices - abandon the teaching or meditate on it.

anataman

Recognition:
rec·og·ni·tion (r k g-n sh n). n. 1. The act of recognizing or condition of being recognized. 2. An awareness that something perceived has been perceived before.

Sorry - this is not a koan - it's something you can be!

anataman

Float like a butterfly
Sting like a bee
You don't need a riddle
To perfectly see

lol

DairyLama

anataman said:

Recognition:
rec·og·ni·tion (r k g-n sh n). n. 1. The act of recognizing or condition of being recognized. 2. An awareness that something perceived has been perceived before.

That sounds like sanna ( perception )?

anataman

It's as near to putting it into words as I can - you are aware of it, but it's not perception, it is the recognising awareness. It recognises perception as well as the action of perceiving and recognising. But it is not perception. You have to meditate on it to appreciate it.

footiam

betaboy said:

If your goal is nibanna, then it is not necessary. What you need is wisdom - the ability to see the truth about no self, transcience, and sorrow. To do this, one need only relate each event/person to these truths.

A strict regimen is not necessary. See the truth every now and then. That would suffice.

Seeing the truth every now and then sounds so much like being mindful.