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Is it wrong to lust?
betaboy
Veteran
Wrong ... not only like a sin but unskillful etc.
Did the Buddha (not buddhist scholars but the Big B himself) say anything specifically about lusting - that we shouldn't look at women, think about them etc.? Or was he liberal in this respect ... cuz he understood it was virtually impossible to control lust for beautiful women?
I need his words, at least something close to this matter. Thanks.
Did the Buddha (not buddhist scholars but the Big B himself) say anything specifically about lusting - that we shouldn't look at women, think about them etc.? Or was he liberal in this respect ... cuz he understood it was virtually impossible to control lust for beautiful women?
I need his words, at least something close to this matter. Thanks.
0
Comments
On the other hand lust is lust. It has an effect on the mind.
So if I have lust in meditation I just let it be.
If I have lust for a co-worker or something then I just let it be.
What else can you do other than remove your hormone producing regions?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsy
I am thinking 'castration of the mouth' may help my 'right speech' efforts . . . :buck:
His words, AND something close to this matter.
Read and enjoy.
But lust is such a broad term that like the word desire or suffering, it can lead to people thinking all thoughts of a sexual nature are bad and the biological urge to merge must be eliminated from your life. I'm not talking about the desire for an orgasm. There are drugs and surgery and if nothing else the effects of old age that can eliminate that urge. Certainly, stopping all desire for sex would make it easier to obey the Precepts and eliminate one hindrance, wouldn't it?
But the lust that is dangerous is a state of mind that finds an outlet where it can and infects all of our desires. What do you cut off the body to stop the lust for power? How do you stop the lust for revenge? The scandals of the Buddhist Masters were as much about the lust for power as sexual desire.
To lust is to let the natural desires rule the mind. Those that teach we can eliminate all natural desires are fooling you. That's like saying you can eliminate all thoughts. Instead of wrestling with the Ox, you have to tame it, and then ride it first. After that, what? Who is the Ox, really?
And now I've definitely succumbed to preaching the Zen which to anyone who doesn't practice this way only confuses. If anyone has read this far, I apologize for wandering off into left field.
It's an American holiday where we honor a true hero who died too soon. The children have a day off from school but I have to go to work. Have a nice day!
Lust is never instinctive.
Lust is programmed into us.....
Sexual desire, is an inherent trait, not an instinct. Every animal on the planet has the inherent trait to reproduce.
It is we, as humans, who have added so many different facets and clouded the original objective with so many layers of extraneous baggage.
Lust is one of them.
If you are going to follow the Sutrayana thats where the bar is set...
No kidding yourself that you can lead a normal sexual married life without putting back your awakening by a hundreds of lifetimes..because you can't.
Hence the Vajrayana...
the rule ist to be sexual celibacy. The exeption of the rule is: If you can´t hold back, please don´t have sexual intercouse with married women.
G.Buddho had, as a prince, 40 ladies in his harem.
He says also that sex is the law of common people.
On one hand is our biological, hormonal constitution and on the second hand there is
the sexual socialization. This educational part want´s to urge it´s sight of view upon
you, to reproduce yourself.
There are different levels of testorerones and the one who have less of them are not
that much bothered with it. If more testosterones are urging your mind on women and sex, all you can do is watching these thought and feeling come and go in meditation.
Look at women as they really are, not with that lot of testosternes in your eyes and mind. It can take a long time to get rid of the socialized sexfeelings- and thoughts
but getting older might decrease the pressure of hormones.
sakko
And here is where our modern Buddhist approach has to look at the traditional structure of old monks preaching celibacy as necessary for spiritual advancement, yet supported by a lay community happily perform nature's law of making babies for a new generation, and shake our heads. Not gonna fly in today's world. The Catholic church demands that their Priests be celibate, but even they don't preach that the lay members aren't going to Heaven because they have fun between the sheets.
I suspect that many people with a friendly warm sex life characterised by mutual regard would say that it was indeed OK.
No pretending needed.
You are attempting to live by the social mores of an ancient civilisation that internalised the idea of sexuality as unclean , impure and a harbinger of catastrophy..that idea was common in the Subcontinent among all of its indigenous religions ...Jainism, Vedanta and Buddhism.
The Vajrayana was not merely a populist reaction. It was a recognition of the need to bring sexuality into the spotlight of openness and to utilise its drive not to be reduced by it to repression and to fear of it.
I have every other hindrance in abundance and in alternate manifestations, just in case anyone gets the impression I am tooting my own horn here.
But DAYUM, am I lucky or what? The way this thread is going, the 'simple' lack of sexual gratification will hasten me toward Awakening faster than anything else. This can't be true. Sexual gratification (simple, non-wrongdoing, non-lustful, mutually respectful) can't be more important, surrendered, than stealing or lying.
Gassho
Actually the fact is that some perfectly happy well adjusted people have little or no sex drive...its just become a taboo to admit to it.
But as you say Hamsaka it does not mean anything one way or another as far as awakening goes.
Come on this is the middle way - Sex can be happy, pleasurable and enjoyable with your partner or spouse, or yourself LOL, as can reading a good sutra, or a newbuddhist thread. You've just got to be mindful when you are doing it. It's all just an illusion isn't it? Don't let all those misleading beliefs lead you astray, and let the lust just fall away.
Dedicate all the lustful feelings you have felt at the end of your little intercourse or night-time read to the enlightenment of all beings, then you might be free to continue without regret.
For all the talk about the "Middle Way", Buddhism started off and continues to be a religion wrapped around renunciation. A religion which has its Noble Truth that "desires are bad and to be eliminated" cannot be practiced without rejecting a lot of what is considered normal human behavior.
Not that it's a bad thing. "Normal" human behavior includes a lot of stuff that makes us miserable and hurt each other. It's to Buddhism's credit that it pretty much leaves the lay population alone except for a handful of rules about avoiding the worst of excesses. On the other hand, current Buddhist cultures aren't the examples of enlightened philosophy that we'd hope for, if our religion is actually the lifeline for humanity we'd like it to be. The temples aren't even the oasis of enlightenment we'd prefer, sometimes.
Just something to think about. And somehow I wandered way off topic, didn't I?
But I don't know what it takes for other people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct
. I value keeping them out in the open to reduce the risk of them blindsiding me. I'd be interested to read a historical analysis supporting these claims.I don't think the Buddha saw sex this way, it was more that lust makes it hard to settle down into effective states of concentration, and that sex leads to childbirth, which is miserable and all-consuming for both parents and child.
Also, if you take the middle way, there is no repression or fear, there is simple acknowledgement of the conflict, and that there is still work to be done. The closest thing to outright conflict from my attitude is my wife's fear that I might ordain (not likely, as I am still strongly attached to sex, money and intellectual masturbation.
You see having children as miserable and time consuming ?
I don't think that is the middle way. I think that is a pretty good description of hinayana.
The idea that we should toss aside all that MAY potentially bind us is ludicrous. My grasping or non-grasping can apply to anything in life, my speech, my emotions, my body, my mind ect..... Am I being mindful? What is my intent and does it spring from goodwill, joy, compassion and love?
Its exactly like trying to have a conversation about cosmology with someone who insists that the cosmological view found in the Pali Canon as described by the Buddha is ontological truth.
In other words that the Earth is circled by a vast ocean. which is the origin of earthquakes, and that the universe has a gigantic mountain at its centre..
It might seem unlikely that modern educated people should hold such views...but they do.
In the same way there are people who refuse to see that some of the Buddha's views are the product of his time and culture. And that includes a negative view of sexuality. A view which persists in the Subcontinent to this day, and which is the actual source of the hostility often found towards women.
I disagree, when my wife and I made a commitment out of love for each other when we chose to get married we discussed children and welcomed them into our lives. We knew there would be challenges, but we believed we would overcome them together and whilst the challenges have been sometimes overwhelming, I wouldn't call it any more miserable and all-consuming than the life we had before children. In fact it probably made us appreciate how selfish we had really been and moderated our behaviors and brought our excesses under control. Truly knowing that someone is dependent on you for everything probably for the rest of your life is a lesson in itself. Extrapolating that to yourself and everyone else is a realization. Realisation opens up the heart and mind of wisdom. The karma of those lustful moments, are slowly blossoming, and in this imperfect world there is the odd patch of mildew and fungus, but they are only being fed by the beauty that is life's poetry in motion.
If we can produce 3 children who are self-sufficient, conscientious, loving and giving and able to productively contribute to society, and make someone else's life better, then that will bring us further challenges I am sure but also happiness.
Mettha
Also, it's safe bet that your kids will be just as insecure and unhappy as you are.
Regarding worlds resources @fivebells. Someone else would still have the benefit of them if my kids don't, and possibly more likely to abuse them. Also the worlds population cannot continue to grow exponentially. There will be a natural braking system. If the worlds resources are used effectively, and recycled and reused and we all ate a vegetarian diet, the world could support approximately double the number of people it does now.
Back to your comment:
My wife and I have worked very hard and come from nothing to get where we are. Both of us were the first to go to university in each of our respective families. We have worked hard, paid for our own university educations, have never asked for any benefits from the state, we have private medical insurance, we pay for our children to go to private school even though we pay national insurance and taxes that fund the NHS and education system in this country that we are just as entitled to. That enables others to take our children's places in hospitals and schools. I worked for the NHS for nearly 20 years for a basic salary that a tube driver gets for doing 37 hours a week, at times I have worked more than 120 hours in a week for the same, sacrificing time I could have enjoyed with my family benefitting others. We give to charity, I have done voluntary and charity work, our children have never eaten meat, and my wife and I have pretty much been vegetarian most of our adult life. We conscientiously reuse and recycle everything we can. In short we are aware of our dependence and interdependence on society, and educate our children with that understanding.
Now lets face that dismal future you foresee together but look now and see it as there are at least 5 people out there working for the rest of you. Anyone want to join me and my family?
Of course as a Theravadan you are probably just focussed on the 3 marks of existence, and I can understand that can be a little unfulfilling. As a mahayana practitioner, on the path of no path, I enjoy and surrender myself to the present moment, where I am charged and lit up with everything around me. It's good to have a human incarnation, you can do a lot with it.
I forgive your judging mind, and hope you enjoy your practice, I hope it bears the fruit you lust after.
The Buddha gave two different teachings on sex, one for monks and one for laypersons. For laypersons, it is quite liberal. Just don't engage in misconduct, AKA keep the 3rd precept. He even called it a "worldly joy, worldly happiness, worldly equanimity". The problem with that though is worldly happiness is conditional, impermanent and seeking it can only end in suffering.
For monks and people who really want to follow the way, it's a whole different story. He had nothing but condemnation for it. Calling it base, vulgar, ignoble, unprofitable, unskillful. The Buddha gave two separate teachings on sex. What he says depends on which one you read.
It is no more to be taken as a viable model of behaviour than his view that earthquakes are the result of the ocean in space that circles the earth, should be taken as science.
I think it would be unrealistic to expect the Buddha to have knowledge of modern astrophysics and meterology.
Like everyone of his time and culture he had a view of these phenomena which bears no resemblance to our understanding based on empirical evidence.
In the same way he was a product of his times and had a view of various social issues which we in the main do not share.
He saw sex as dirty and taught that wives should always obey their husbands for example.
The fact is what he discovered or rediscovered was of real importance beyond mere cultural prejudices.
But that current brand of neuroticism is not what informed and shaped Buddhism's collective stance to sexuality..that was shaped by what has been described as the Subcontients '
'Body Negative ' position, to which the early Buddhists were heirs.