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I think @Citta still has to demonstrate that the Buddha's view was uncritically absorbed from his background culture. Is it the case, for instance, that most people of the time would agree with his assessment of Suppavasa's joy at the birth of her child?
The very fact that the first paragraph refers to a woman who has been 'pregnant for seven years' is enough to show us that we are not dealing here with historical reality or ontological truths. Its a narrative, translated from one extinct language ( Maghadi ) to another ( Pali ) and then to English. Its purport is lost in time and in translation.
Like everyone of his time and culture he had a view of these phenomena which bears no resemblance to our understanding based on empirical evidence.
Empirical evidence shows that clinging to sense pleasure (AKA sex) produces suffering, just like the Buddha said. Lust is a product of greed and ignorance and that's it. Lust is the tendency of an unenlightened mind. The question of "is it wrong to lust?" could easily be rephrased by saying "Is it wrong to be ignorant?" Not "bad" to be ignorant, but not good either because that makes suffering.
Like everyone of his time and culture he had a view of these phenomena which bears no resemblance to our understanding based on empirical evidence.
Empirical evidence shows that clinging to sense pleasure (AKA sex) produces suffering, just like the Buddha said.
Ah yes the delights of selective editing. A glance at my post will show clearly that the empirical evidence I was referring to was cosmological. As to your point it all hangs on the definition of ' clinging.'
Ah yes the delights of selective editing. A glance at my post will show clearly that the empirical evidence I was referring to was cosmological.
Cosmological... I don't see how cosmology is relevant to the issue, which is lust. The idea that "indulging in lust is unskillful" is not a product of "the Buddha cultural customs" or whatever you want to call it. It's simply the truth. The truth does not change with passage of time.
Its called making a point by analogy seeker242. I would contend that the Buddhist view of sexuality prior to the Third Turning of the Wheel is entirely predicated on the world view prevalent 2500 years ago in ancient Bharat.
Did the Buddha (not buddhist scholars but the Big B himself) say anything specifically about lusting - that we shouldn't look at women, think about them etc.? Or was he liberal in this respect ... cuz he understood it was virtually impossible to control lust for beautiful women?
I need his words, at least something close to this matter. Thanks.
I don't know what Buddha said about lust but I say, it is the effect that counts. Does it cause you much unhappiness? I think Buddha said one have to walk one own's path and bear the fruits of his karma/action. Nothing then, I suppose, can be labelled clearly as right or wrong like a sin but it could be wholesome and not wholesome just like our everday act which could either be right or wrong depending on the situation.
What? no. Lust is just the animal part of your body going "DAYUM that person is FINE!" Now if you dwell on it and allow it to dominate your thoughts or start humping the furniture, that is what is wrong. But if you just let it pass, I see it no different than rising anger or sneezing or not quite making it to the toilet. It is a physical part of the human body, it is up to your not so physical mind to keep it in check.
Empirical evidence shows that clinging to sense pleasure (AKA sex) produces suffering, just like the Buddha said. Lust is a product of greed and ignorance and that's it. Lust is the tendency of an unenlightened mind. The question of "is it wrong to lust?" could easily be rephrased by saying "Is it wrong to be ignorant?" Not "bad" to be ignorant, but not good either because that makes suffering.
In cases like this, maybe one should investigate the pros and cons of a lustful mind themselves.
Refrain from the conditioned responses of right/wrong, asceticism/hedonsim, "this is wrong, shameful, etc." and "this is correct, noble, etc." and just attempt to see what a lustful mind does for your equanimity, concentration, and perspective on the way things are.
Be honest and investigate the situation thoroughly. If a lustful mind (or any other hindrance such as greed or anger) brings immediate or future stress, displeasure, "suffering", or dukha then perhaps it should be avoided. If a lustful mind leads to the permanent and lasting cessation of stressful states, displeasure, and dukha, then perhaps it should be cultivated.
Test it and see for yourself. Verify the teachings rather than argue about them.
Hello, the rule is to live in celibacay. But there is always an exception from the rule. If you can`t hold back any more, please don´t habe intercourse with married women. Gotamo Buddho, when he was a prince, had a harem of 40 women.
Hello, the rule is to live in celibacay. But there is always an exception from the rule. If you can`t hold back any more, please don´t habe intercourse with married women. Gotamo Buddho, when he was a prince, had a harem of 40 women.
anando
I've always thought that was like having a garage with 40 cars in it. You can only drive one car at a time and just choosing which car to take out would get to be a chore. Especially if the cars could whine about how you never take them anywhere and that car with the big headlights got all your attention last week.
Hello, the rule is to live in celibacay. But there is always an exception from the rule. If you can`t hold back any more, please don´t habe intercourse with married women. Gotamo Buddho, when he was a prince, had a harem of 40 women.
anando
No wonder the boy ran away from home.
2
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
By the way, there's a sutta which says that samatha gets rid of lust and vipassana gets rid of ignorance. So either do samatha or take a lot of cold showers..:p
Comments
Its a narrative, translated from one extinct language ( Maghadi ) to another ( Pali ) and then to English.
Its purport is lost in time and in translation.
A glance at my post will show clearly that the empirical evidence I was referring to was cosmological.
As to your point it all hangs on the definition of ' clinging.'
I would contend that the Buddhist view of sexuality prior to the Third Turning of the Wheel is entirely predicated on the world view prevalent 2500 years ago in ancient Bharat.
Refrain from the conditioned responses of right/wrong, asceticism/hedonsim, "this is wrong, shameful, etc." and "this is correct, noble, etc." and just attempt to see what a lustful mind does for your equanimity, concentration, and perspective on the way things are.
Be honest and investigate the situation thoroughly. If a lustful mind (or any other hindrance such as greed or anger) brings immediate or future stress, displeasure, "suffering", or dukha then perhaps it should be avoided. If a lustful mind leads to the permanent and lasting cessation of stressful states, displeasure, and dukha, then perhaps it should be cultivated.
Test it and see for yourself. Verify the teachings rather than argue about them.
Gotamo Buddho, when he was a prince, had a harem of 40 women.
anando
So either do samatha or take a lot of cold showers..:p