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Is this proof near-death experiences ARE real?
cvalue
Veteran
Is this proof near-death experiences ARE real?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545668/Is-proof-near-death-experiences-ARE-real-Extraordinary-new-book-intensive-care-nurse-reveals-dramatic-evidence-says-banish-fear-dying.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545668/Is-proof-near-death-experiences-ARE-real-Extraordinary-new-book-intensive-care-nurse-reveals-dramatic-evidence-says-banish-fear-dying.html
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I am also disturbed that she mentions she is on an intensive care ward and it takes 4 nurses and a good few minutes to get him back into bed, and a doctor to arrive - HELLO - this is INTENSIVE CARE - is this a mid-staffordshire hospital by any chance.
Crap journalism! Or crap patient confidentiality - this journalist and if the source is really a nurse should be brought before a tribunal. Would you or your family like your name and details displayed to the world if you were critically ill, and unable to prove/disprove these allegations - Tom Kennard - you should contact lawyers4us - and take this nurse and the papers to the cleaners - I think 100 000 000should sit them all up or down.
Life or death @cvalue - NO - abuse - YES.
It's a bit like the thread on the supernatural - Occam's razor, cuts deep!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_development
Hopefully in the future these near death experiences and their function will be understand better than, 'you goes to heaven', 'you goes to new life', which is just ignorance. At the moment we don't know. Death is a science taboo at the moment. Can people 'trust' their minds?
:buck:
and now back to Near Life Experiences . . .
The alternative is to believe in a supernatural occurrence that is unverifiable. How many people have seen ghosts, ghouls, black magic, and other specters? I'm made up on those things. I actually believe Near Death Experiences (NDEs) happen, but they are happening in the brain, not as the result of gods and angels.
The experiences have been replicated in brains under extreme duress in an observable setting. I don't know why the brain does it, but it probably is some desperate conforting mechanism when a brain starts to die.
see white spots....but the 'weirdest' thing for me was my 'thinking'
not matching my 'doing'. I witnessed by body going floppy and
I said/heard my words in my head....but it came out like baby talk.
I'm here to report....while my brain was breaking down I saw
nothing spiritual. I wasn't looking for it, either.
My arm would move by itself....does that count?
Who knows.....
The Buddha once as an ascetic practice, before enlightenment, withheld his breath, he reported headaches. Oops.
These NDE's exist, real experiences, transformative, usually for the betterment of the individual and society. They should be explored, just as the benefits of yoga and meditation can be distanced and investigated separately from cultural mythology and interpretations. Anyway that is my delusion . . .
A delusion is not a bad thing. We can use it. Watching a film or reading a novel is a form of 'delusional' thinking . . . and . . . [lobster wanders off into the land of waffle] . . . :wave:
They are sometimes referred to as "a dry run on death".
Of course now that I've read frozen-paratrooper's posts on spin training, perhaps that's just how awful Zen training can be, that our brains get spun quickly enough to achieve escape velocity.
Not directly about NDE's, but about out of body experiences. I'd love to give this a try.
Research means doing things like setting up a controlled experiment, taking people into near-death state and seeing what happens compared to people you just knock out with drugs, that sort of thing. Only sadistic Nazi doctors would do something so dangerous. Collecting stories is simply collecting stories, not research.
Back when I first joined the military in the 1970s I used to work in a regional stateside hospital as an EMT, ambulance and emergency room. It had a large retired and dependent family community around it, and I worked about a half dozen clinical "deaths" where CPR and emergency medical care were used to bring back people who had heart attacks, etc. There was about a 50 percent success rate, since sometimes the person was too far gone for our help. On top of that we had an active surgery I rotated through. Nothing like open heart operations, but sometimes things went wrong.
We also were involved in follow-up care since we were a small hospital, and usually I got to shake hands and talk to the person whose life we saved. Not one of those people reported anything like an NDE full of people giving sage advice, loved ones waiting, floating around and watching the body being worked on, etc.
Does this disprove the existence of NDEs? No. But why not? I bet almost all surgeons out there will tell you none of their patients said their spirits floated around the operating room.
Doesn't the absence of something prove it doesn't exist? Of course not. Nothing can disprove it, because we can't even define what it is we're trying to prove. That a few people report strange visions when their brains are injured or starved of oxygen to the point of near death? Of course they do. Does this prove we have a soul that leaves the body and continues on after death? Of course not.
Interesting, my time in the Air Force did show me that many of the pilots believed in UFOs and had stories of strange things they saw up there while joyriding in their expensive fighter jets, even the pilots who claimed they started off skeptical. This was when the whole UFO and Bermuda Triangle thing hit the culture and bookstores were full of that sort of thing. Flight surgeons at the hospital said it was due to the brain being stressed by g-forces causing visions and people being hardwired to believe what their brain tells them they saw.
Or maybe the skies are filled with flying saucers. Can't prove they are not there, can we?
Have you read the book?
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/04/consciousness-after-death/all/
His research uses double blinds and neutral interviewers, he doesn't say that there is a next life or anything but "The evidence we have so far is that human consciousness does not become annihilated... It continues for a few hours after death, albeit in a hibernated state we cannot see from the outside.”
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/04/consciousness-after-death/all/ I guess those scientists who made fun when people discovered electromagnetism, had to eat their words after.
It happened no doubt about that.
Where is it? ::shrugs::
certainty and doubt co-arise.
and then those are put to rest. well then.
And what about the changes in some people's electromagnetic fields, newly acquired clairvoyant or other psi abilities, etc.?
More study needs to be done on these cases. Instead of dismissing them out of hand, they need to be studied. Writing stuff off isn't science. Testing, measuring, recording findings, and analyzing is the practice of science.
Yet the person reports seeing the doctors and their body, as if their spirit eyes could receive photons, which stimulated the spirit optic nerves to create memory pathways in a spirit brain in spite of us knowing exactly how memories are created, and that is through electrochemical pathways created in the physical brain. This is not debatable. We can stimulate one pathway and cause you to relive a memory. We can destroy a pathway and your memory is gone forever. Are spirit brains composed of little ghost neurons that when you re-enter the body, instantly move the cells around to match the new configuration?
So it is literally impossible for a spirit to create memories. Even if spirit existed and returned to a body, it is impossible for you to remember anything the spirit experienced outside the brain.
People who believe in NDE and ghosts and such stuff want it both ways. Either the spirit does not obey the laws of physics or it does. Either photons interact and we can see the ghost and it can see us, or we are both invisible to each other all the time. Anything else is just wishful thinking and saying "Oh, it's magic."
We do know, though, that our brains can create false memories and trigger false emotions because this vastly complicated physical process is imperfect. The fact that your mind remembers something does not mean it happened, necessarily, or happened the way you remember. Every time you dream, your brain is turning a messy jumble into a false narrative. No, you're not actually floating off a seaside cliff, even though when you first wake up you remember doing so.
So we have a known, common, likely explanation for the phenomenon, and theories that involve basically magic. For some of us, the second set of theories require a lot more evidence than we have so far.
You know you are not dead when you remember things.
Maybe more study has not been done because science has better things to do.
We can as mentioned stimulate the brain to have visions, maybe the purpose of NDE will throw knowledge on the processing that happens during death. I feel it is a neglected study but that will change. Then the cry will go up . . . 'ah yes, that is what happens when you die but what happens after you die . . .'
Oh boy.
Spooky stuff? Some sort of magical holding and then the trauma of being a sperm and egg cell?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps
Buddhism, common sense required?
It's at Koh Kho Khao.
Will that help?
AFTER death. The actual dying process is different! NDE's are
not confirmation of the after and what's 'there' and who's there...
NDE's are the process of the form breaking down.....
However, If you believe in an afterlife...wouldn't you be
looking/expecting one? If you spent your whole life believeing
you would see your loved ones again....wouldn't that be the first
thing you would grasp onto?..... Just wondering/noodling ......
NDE? The transition/moving? ....I understand where your coming
from....I do.
know where the OP is starting from...AFA afterlife or not....
It can help others' understand the need for an explanation/reason....
Before, some people said but nobody ever come back from death to tell us what happened to them so we just trusted the book of death blindly. Not anymore, thanks to CPR, doctors can call the death back.
@Vastmind asked: Since I am a big believer of Amida's Pure Land. I expect to see the bright light from Amitabha Buddha as soon as I die. And when I see that light, I will say Namo Amitabha Buddha and I hope to be able to merge into his light.
What science yet has no explanation for is how neurochemical and electrical activity in the brain actually produce the phenomena of conscious experience.
Yes, when certain things are done to the brain certain correlated events happen in our consciousness. Correlation is not necessarily causation though.
Until it can be shown how brain activity causes conscious experience it is only an assumption of causation, albeit a reasonable one.
There are several other possibilities besides
Brain (A) -> Consciousness (B)
There is
B -> A
It could be both causing each other through some interaction
A <-> B
Or it could be a third force causing both
C -> B and A
Or even something like no causation but more like the convex and concave sides of a semi circle
Consciousness seems to be a unique type of phenomena in the universe so it doesn't seem that far fetched to me that it could have unique properties.
What people call the Laws of The Universe are nothing of the kind. They are man-made theories, attempts to explain how things work. They are considered laws until something better comes along. Everyone thought Newton had it nailed until Einstein came up with Relativity. Today quantum mechanics is making physicists question long held theories about causation.
If my ego passed beyond deaths door intact, then good luck in trying to get it to shut up about such a miraculous self affirming trip.
If consciousness/ soul did the trip, then our lack of memory of our last life is wiped so clean as to make the connection between the before and after..irrelevant.
It does make sense to me that in the dying process where the body/mind starts falling apart, that our conditioning which has had us see the world the way that we do, might also change.
It is reasonable to expect such views within such a transition to be unique from what we formally had, and folks fortunate enough to survive near death experiences might remember some of that.
From a practice perspective though, it is just more phenomena to not fiddle with.
Obviously the "spirit" or "consciousness" or whatever doesn't have physical eyes, so what kind of sight is involved? If it exists (if reports are true), it's not dependent on physical systems. What kind of sight is involved when we see something "in our mind's eye", as the expression goes? What kind of sight is involved when clairvoyants view something at a distance that they've never seen before? (I had someone perfectly describe the interior of my house (from a continent away), and I've done something similar at a psi workshop.) These "viewings", btw, typically take place with the practitioner's eyes closed, in my experience. It's easier to focus that way. No distractions.
Also, though these "spirits" (whatever) can't be seen, in some haunting cases, there do seem to be some kind of electromagnetic phenomena associated with them, to which animals react.
More study needed.
Stay tuned for further developments.