Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Would I offer compassion equally to a victim and the perpetrator? Yes. I do it all the time. Neither has to know that I am offering compassion to the other. It doesn't have to mean a physical presence. When my sister was hit and almost killed by a drunk driver, as a family when we did our prayers at dinner, we said a prayer for the drunk driver as well. If people are the same at their true nature, you do not withhold compassion from one over the other.
@karasti said:
Would I offer compassion equally to a victim and the perpetrator? Yes. I do it all the time. Neither has to know that I am offering compassion to the other. It doesn't have to mean a physical presence. When my sister was hit and almost killed by a drunk driver, as a family when we did our prayers at dinner, we said a prayer for the drunk driver as well. If people are the same at their true nature, you do not withhold compassion from one over the other.
That is a beautiful example of true compassion. It does not pick and choose.
@karasti said:
Would I offer compassion equally to a victim and the perpetrator? Yes. I do it all the time. Neither has to know that I am offering compassion to the other. It doesn't have to mean a physical presence. When my sister was hit and almost killed by a drunk driver, as a family when we did our prayers at dinner, we said a prayer for the drunk driver as well. If people are the same at their true nature, you do not withhold compassion from one over the other.
Having compassion for a drunk driver is one thing - the guy didn't have any harmful intent, it was an accident that he hit your sister. It doesn't reflect badly on his character, except that he should be careful while driving. But what of bullies who purposely target you? No accident in such cases.... their motives are clear...what then?
@betaboy said:
Having compassion for a drunk driver is one thing - the guy didn't have any harmful intent, it was an accident that he hit your sister. It doesn't reflect badly on his character, except that he should be careful while driving. But what of bullies who purposely target you? No accident in such cases.... their motives are clear...what then?
Same answer. Determining 'purpose' is a challenge. The bully is trying to feel better about him or herself by seizing power. Which, incidentally, is almost always a learned behavior. So, he is seeking to escape the pain of his insecurities and fears. Why did the drunk driver drink to the point where he was too impaired to drive safely? Being an alcoholic in recovery and having quite a lot of dealings with other alcoholics, I'm going to guess, with a fair amount of confidence, that he was seeking to escape as well.
In either case, the cause of the behavior is selfishness born of desperation.
@betaboy said:
Having compassion for a drunk driver is one thing - the guy didn't have any harmful intent, it was an accident that he hit your sister. ...
Drunk driving doesn't reflect badly on a person??????????????????????????????????????
We have talked about this general principle (yes, there are such things as principles) before, and one thing a number of us have said is that it isn't intent alone, but intent PLUS reasonable judgement.
An average drunk driver has driven drunk 80 times before first arrest.
More than 1 person every hour dies from drunk drivers. Do you get it -- that's over 10,000 people per year.
@footiam said:Would you think it is fair to treat a murderer and his victim in the same compassionate manner?
I've been drawn back to this post repeatedly since it's been posted. Here's my contribution, offered not to win an argument, but as a perspective only.
Last May, my doctor told me that I could continue working or live to see Christmas. My wife was not working at the time but quickly got a job. Then she got a second job. She still volunteers regularly though, making lunches for the elderly at the senior center on the Reservation and working at a horse rescue operation that works with Down Syndrome kids She cleans houses as well, whenever she gets the opportunity for a little extra money.
Late last year she was hurt on the job and couldn't work for four months. We fell on extremely hard times. We moved into a place with no running water or heat about 40 miles from the Canadian border because it was cheap and our savings had already been decimated. She was released back to work three weeks ago. We had gotten to the point where we were ripping up old clothes for toilet paper that they gave away at the food bank. Destitute.
In two days she receives her first paycheck from this job and it'll be the first money we've had in months. Two days ago, she went to clean an elderly neighbors house who had offered her $50 to do so. She came home empty handed. "Honey, I couldn't take the money - she's almost as bad off as we are." That's the woman I'm married to. The girl who's deathly afraid of spiders but carries them outside while running out of the bathroom screaming cause she'd rather be scared to death than to hurt anything. She is, without a doubt, the most compassionate person I know.
And one last thing, she did twenty-four years in prison for aggravated murder. Read the newspapers or watch the news and you'll deem her a sociopath. Live with her and you'll deem her a saint. I suppose at the end of the day, she's a person - just like her victim.
And then there's me. I'm a murderer too. Of course, mine happened while I was wearing a uniform and following orders; that makes me a hero I'm told. Her case was after being kidnapped, sold into the sex trade and during an escape attempt - at fifteen years old. We're pretty much the same, her and I, except she's the greatest teacher I've ever had and I'm just a poor, barely worthy student.
If anyone got anything out of this, I'm glad - but I think I'm posting this for me, so if you didn't, my apologies for being self-indulgent.
There may or may not be harmful intent, depends on the person. In the case of this man, he ran my sister over, left her laying unconscious in the street, and took off. She was 6 years old and playing at the park. My uncle saw the accident (it was the day of a family bbq, the entire family saw it. I was 9 and got to pick up her bloody shoes off the street and carry them home) and he chased the guy down and made a citizens arrest. In any case, whether the guy intended to hurt someone, he never apologized, not in court and not anywhere else, and he still drinks and drives today. He has spent most of the time since the accident (30 years ago) behind bars for DUI. He will most likely end up in prison for life because of it, eventually. I hope he doesn't hurt or kill anyone else before that. But I also know he is hurting himself, and his family. I have compassion for him because though he made us suffer, and my sister still suffers effects of her injuries, he suffers, too. He wouldn't be an alcoholic who didn't care if he hurt himself, his family, or others, if he wasn't suffering greatly. So while I don't like the man, I do practice compassion for him.
In any case, if you've missed my other example along the way, yes, I apply it to bullies, too. My middle son was bullied by an older kid (about 5 years older than my son) and 2 years ago he pulled my son off his bike and punched him. And yes, we also used that as a way to teach compassion. It can be taught in any circumstance.
1
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Having just now joined this thread I see the two sides as one believing that compassion is an action and the other believing compassion is a feeling.
I guess I fall on the side that sees compassion as more of a feeling. As was argued earlier a sociopath could engage in an action that appears compassionate and may even actually be helpful, but to me, if in his heart he is doing it in some scheme to benefit himself it isn't really compassion.
This reminds me of a passage from the Tao Te Ching:
When the great Tao is forgotten,
goodness and piety appear.
When the body's intelligence declines,
cleverness and knowledge step forth.
When there is no peace in the family,
filial piety begins.
When the country falls into chaos,
patriotism is born.
I take the meaning to be that when the true form of something disappears a sort of similar but superficial function takes its place. If one doesn't have compassion in their hearts they can still engage in 'compassionate' activities not out of compassion but out of a moral code. Not that that kind of behavior isn't good but I don't see that it is really compassionate if the feeling behind it isn't actually compassion.
There are different types of compassion as well. Aside from the compassion we are talking about, that has to be developed, there is great compassion (in my tradition) that transcends the phenomenal world. It becomes something you are rather than something you feel or do.
@karasti said:
There are different types of compassion as well. Aside from the compassion we are talking about, that has to be developed, there is great compassion (in my tradition) that transcends the phenomenal world. It becomes something you are rather than something you feel or do.
I think compassion is one of those things that has to ring true in order for it to be real. Just as someone could easily turn around and change their ways for better or for worse. Should we really pick and choose is the question. Is it better to think of compassion as genuine compassion no matter what happens before or after? That's why its better to think of it as a practice. I have read somewhere that it is a natural quality for those who have gained insight and wisdom.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited April 2014
I think we must also understand that in order to cultivate compassion, it is necessary to incorporate the other Brahma Viharas; Metta, Mudita and eventually also Upekka....
We need the others in order to abide in the 4 sublime states; 1 out of 4 is simply not good enough.
I've always found it easier to show compassion to animals rather than people. When I'm working on feeling loving-kindness to a person I dislike, I usually pick, abstractly, a person who's mistreated an animal. But oddly, I've found I cannot hold an animal in my mind while doing loving-kindness meditation, though from what I've read that's "allowable". It seems like a waste of practice, since compassion towards animals seems to be...always there.
@Nele said:
I've always found it easier to show compassion to animals rather than people. When I'm working on feeling loving-kindness to a person I dislike, I usually pick, abstractly, a person who's mistreated an animal. But oddly, I've found I cannot hold an animal in my mind while doing loving-kindness meditation, though from what I've read that's "allowable". It seems like a waste of practice, since compassion towards animals seems to be...always there.
Don't worry. Most people are animals, biologically and in other ways.
@federica said:
That's no excuse; there is prior knowledge of the danger; it's a flagrant disregard for known consequences.
Still, you can't compare him with a sadistic bully or someone tortures others for fun, or to dictators, serial rapists etc. There is simply no comparison. Anyway, my point is that it is easy to cultivate compassion for people who inadvertently hurt you (rather than for those who intentionally hurt you).
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Compassion doesn't make these distinctions.
If you cultivate Compassion, you do so unconditionally.
Otherwise it is not sincere compassion.
it is biased, judgemental and faltering.
@federica said:
Compassion doesn't make these distinctions.
If you cultivate Compassion, you do so unconditionally.
Otherwise it is not sincere compassion.
it is biased, judgemental and faltering.
True, but for a beginner that would be a good start all the same. To have compassion for someone is better than having compassion for no one......
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Can't argue with that.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
To add to my earlier point.
Teaching the Dharma could be done out of compassion or it could be done out of a desire to gain fame or admiration. Both actions are the same but its the feeling behind them that determine whether the action is compassion or not.
In training ourselves to be more compassionate though often engaging in volunteer work or other actions that benefit others we can do those things without a compassionate intention but by doing them develop compassion. Its important to be mindful of your intent and make an effort to be more compassionate if your aim is to increase compassion or one could easily remain in and even increase less than helpful intentions.
@person said: Having just now joined this thread I see the two sides as one believing that compassion is an action and the other believing compassion is a feeling.
I guess I fall on the side that sees compassion as more of a feeling. As was argued earlier a sociopath could engage in an action that appears compassionate and may even actually be helpful, but to me, if in his heart he is doing it in some scheme to benefit himself it isn't really compassion.
This reminds me of a passage from the Tao Te Ching:
I take the meaning to be that when the true form of something disappears a sort of similar but superficial function takes its place. If one doesn't have compassion in their hearts they can still engage in 'compassionate' activities not out of compassion but out of a moral code. Not that that kind of behavior isn't good but I don't see that it is really compassionate if the feeling behind it isn't actually compassion.
Intention/kamma is inseparable from feeling. Wholesome action can mask unwholesome intent.
Contact --->feeling -----> intention ---->action. That is paticca samupada(dependent origination)
_
"And what is the cause by which feeling comes into play? Contact is the cause by which feeling comes into play_
_"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.
"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.
@Nele said:
I've always found it easier to show compassion to animals rather than people. When I'm working on feeling loving-kindness to a person I dislike, I usually pick, abstractly, a person who's mistreated an animal. But oddly, I've found I cannot hold an animal in my mind while doing loving-kindness meditation, though from what I've read that's "allowable". It seems like a waste of practice, since compassion towards animals seems to be...always there.
I don't think it's a waste of a practice. It's recommended to start the practice with any being that is very easy to love and feel kindness for, human or animal either is fine. The point is to really get to know what metta really feels like very intimately. To build up "metta strength" you can call it. To gain experience in holding your mind filled with metta. When it becomes very strong for loved beings, then this makes it easier to apply to neutral beings because now you already know how to really keep your mind filled with metta. When "metta strength" for neutral beings becomes very strong, then this makes it easier to apply that strength to disliked beings. When "metta strength" for disliked beings becomes very strong, then this makes it easier to apply that strength to hated beings. It's a progressive building up of strength of on various levels.
But, you don't necessarily have to start with a being that is the easiest of them all. You can start with whatever level is before the level that you find more difficult. Or, whatever level is easy to do. That is how I learned how to do it anyway.
wow these are incredible comments and conversations everyone is having. I didn't realize that bringing up a topic on compassion would bring so much positive (and somewhat but not completely negative) feedback. You guys are teaching me-and eachother-alot. To be honest I was kind of nervous posting this, but now I am very glad since such good points are being made. Its just more practice for us to cultivate compassion in all times and to all people.
Comments
Would I offer compassion equally to a victim and the perpetrator? Yes. I do it all the time. Neither has to know that I am offering compassion to the other. It doesn't have to mean a physical presence. When my sister was hit and almost killed by a drunk driver, as a family when we did our prayers at dinner, we said a prayer for the drunk driver as well. If people are the same at their true nature, you do not withhold compassion from one over the other.
That is a beautiful example of true compassion. It does not pick and choose.
Having compassion for a drunk driver is one thing - the guy didn't have any harmful intent, it was an accident that he hit your sister. It doesn't reflect badly on his character, except that he should be careful while driving. But what of bullies who purposely target you? No accident in such cases.... their motives are clear...what then?
Same answer. Determining 'purpose' is a challenge. The bully is trying to feel better about him or herself by seizing power. Which, incidentally, is almost always a learned behavior. So, he is seeking to escape the pain of his insecurities and fears. Why did the drunk driver drink to the point where he was too impaired to drive safely? Being an alcoholic in recovery and having quite a lot of dealings with other alcoholics, I'm going to guess, with a fair amount of confidence, that he was seeking to escape as well.
In either case, the cause of the behavior is selfishness born of desperation.
Drunk driving doesn't reflect badly on a person??????????????????????????????????????
We have talked about this general principle (yes, there are such things as principles) before, and one thing a number of us have said is that it isn't intent alone, but intent PLUS reasonable judgement.
An average drunk driver has driven drunk 80 times before first arrest.
More than 1 person every hour dies from drunk drivers. Do you get it -- that's over 10,000 people per year.
I've been drawn back to this post repeatedly since it's been posted. Here's my contribution, offered not to win an argument, but as a perspective only.
Last May, my doctor told me that I could continue working or live to see Christmas. My wife was not working at the time but quickly got a job. Then she got a second job. She still volunteers regularly though, making lunches for the elderly at the senior center on the Reservation and working at a horse rescue operation that works with Down Syndrome kids She cleans houses as well, whenever she gets the opportunity for a little extra money.
Late last year she was hurt on the job and couldn't work for four months. We fell on extremely hard times. We moved into a place with no running water or heat about 40 miles from the Canadian border because it was cheap and our savings had already been decimated. She was released back to work three weeks ago. We had gotten to the point where we were ripping up old clothes for toilet paper that they gave away at the food bank. Destitute.
In two days she receives her first paycheck from this job and it'll be the first money we've had in months. Two days ago, she went to clean an elderly neighbors house who had offered her $50 to do so. She came home empty handed. "Honey, I couldn't take the money - she's almost as bad off as we are." That's the woman I'm married to. The girl who's deathly afraid of spiders but carries them outside while running out of the bathroom screaming cause she'd rather be scared to death than to hurt anything. She is, without a doubt, the most compassionate person I know.
And one last thing, she did twenty-four years in prison for aggravated murder. Read the newspapers or watch the news and you'll deem her a sociopath. Live with her and you'll deem her a saint. I suppose at the end of the day, she's a person - just like her victim.
And then there's me. I'm a murderer too. Of course, mine happened while I was wearing a uniform and following orders; that makes me a hero I'm told. Her case was after being kidnapped, sold into the sex trade and during an escape attempt - at fifteen years old. We're pretty much the same, her and I, except she's the greatest teacher I've ever had and I'm just a poor, barely worthy student.
If anyone got anything out of this, I'm glad - but I think I'm posting this for me, so if you didn't, my apologies for being self-indulgent.
Nothing like a little real life to cut through all the hypothetical and high-minded.
thanks @yagr
But the drunk driver isn't a vicious, sadistic monster who wants to kill.... it is an accident. There is no harmful intent.
That's no excuse; there is prior knowledge of the danger; it's a flagrant disregard for known consequences.
There may or may not be harmful intent, depends on the person. In the case of this man, he ran my sister over, left her laying unconscious in the street, and took off. She was 6 years old and playing at the park. My uncle saw the accident (it was the day of a family bbq, the entire family saw it. I was 9 and got to pick up her bloody shoes off the street and carry them home) and he chased the guy down and made a citizens arrest. In any case, whether the guy intended to hurt someone, he never apologized, not in court and not anywhere else, and he still drinks and drives today. He has spent most of the time since the accident (30 years ago) behind bars for DUI. He will most likely end up in prison for life because of it, eventually. I hope he doesn't hurt or kill anyone else before that. But I also know he is hurting himself, and his family. I have compassion for him because though he made us suffer, and my sister still suffers effects of her injuries, he suffers, too. He wouldn't be an alcoholic who didn't care if he hurt himself, his family, or others, if he wasn't suffering greatly. So while I don't like the man, I do practice compassion for him.
In any case, if you've missed my other example along the way, yes, I apply it to bullies, too. My middle son was bullied by an older kid (about 5 years older than my son) and 2 years ago he pulled my son off his bike and punched him. And yes, we also used that as a way to teach compassion. It can be taught in any circumstance.
Having just now joined this thread I see the two sides as one believing that compassion is an action and the other believing compassion is a feeling.
I guess I fall on the side that sees compassion as more of a feeling. As was argued earlier a sociopath could engage in an action that appears compassionate and may even actually be helpful, but to me, if in his heart he is doing it in some scheme to benefit himself it isn't really compassion.
This reminds me of a passage from the Tao Te Ching:
goodness and piety appear.
When the body's intelligence declines,
cleverness and knowledge step forth.
When there is no peace in the family,
filial piety begins.
When the country falls into chaos,
patriotism is born.
I take the meaning to be that when the true form of something disappears a sort of similar but superficial function takes its place. If one doesn't have compassion in their hearts they can still engage in 'compassionate' activities not out of compassion but out of a moral code. Not that that kind of behavior isn't good but I don't see that it is really compassionate if the feeling behind it isn't actually compassion.
There are different types of compassion as well. Aside from the compassion we are talking about, that has to be developed, there is great compassion (in my tradition) that transcends the phenomenal world. It becomes something you are rather than something you feel or do.
That must be the kind I have.
I think compassion is one of those things that has to ring true in order for it to be real. Just as someone could easily turn around and change their ways for better or for worse. Should we really pick and choose is the question. Is it better to think of compassion as genuine compassion no matter what happens before or after? That's why its better to think of it as a practice. I have read somewhere that it is a natural quality for those who have gained insight and wisdom.
I think we must also understand that in order to cultivate compassion, it is necessary to incorporate the other Brahma Viharas; Metta, Mudita and eventually also Upekka....
We need the others in order to abide in the 4 sublime states; 1 out of 4 is simply not good enough.
I've always found it easier to show compassion to animals rather than people. When I'm working on feeling loving-kindness to a person I dislike, I usually pick, abstractly, a person who's mistreated an animal. But oddly, I've found I cannot hold an animal in my mind while doing loving-kindness meditation, though from what I've read that's "allowable". It seems like a waste of practice, since compassion towards animals seems to be...always there.
Don't worry. Most people are animals, biologically and in other ways.
Still, you can't compare him with a sadistic bully or someone tortures others for fun, or to dictators, serial rapists etc. There is simply no comparison. Anyway, my point is that it is easy to cultivate compassion for people who inadvertently hurt you (rather than for those who intentionally hurt you).
Compassion doesn't make these distinctions.
If you cultivate Compassion, you do so unconditionally.
Otherwise it is not sincere compassion.
it is biased, judgemental and faltering.
True, but for a beginner that would be a good start all the same. To have compassion for someone is better than having compassion for no one......
Can't argue with that.
To add to my earlier point.
Teaching the Dharma could be done out of compassion or it could be done out of a desire to gain fame or admiration. Both actions are the same but its the feeling behind them that determine whether the action is compassion or not.
In training ourselves to be more compassionate though often engaging in volunteer work or other actions that benefit others we can do those things without a compassionate intention but by doing them develop compassion. Its important to be mindful of your intent and make an effort to be more compassionate if your aim is to increase compassion or one could easily remain in and even increase less than helpful intentions.
But not karmically (if that's a word) since rebirth as an animal (I mean one of those other kinds of animals) is not considered progress. Hmm...
Intention/kamma is inseparable from feeling. Wholesome action can mask unwholesome intent.
Contact --->feeling -----> intention ---->action. That is paticca samupada(dependent origination)
_
"And what is the cause by which feeling comes into play? Contact is the cause by which feeling comes into play_
_"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.
"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html_
I don't think it's a waste of a practice.
It's recommended to start the practice with any being that is very easy to love and feel kindness for, human or animal either is fine. The point is to really get to know what metta really feels like very intimately. To build up "metta strength" you can call it. To gain experience in holding your mind filled with metta. When it becomes very strong for loved beings, then this makes it easier to apply to neutral beings because now you already know how to really keep your mind filled with metta. When "metta strength" for neutral beings becomes very strong, then this makes it easier to apply that strength to disliked beings. When "metta strength" for disliked beings becomes very strong, then this makes it easier to apply that strength to hated beings. It's a progressive building up of strength of on various levels.
But, you don't necessarily have to start with a being that is the easiest of them all. You can start with whatever level is before the level that you find more difficult. Or, whatever level is easy to do. That is how I learned how to do it anyway.
As a Jew, I would LOVE it if I was Hitler reborn. Irony at its finest.
wow these are incredible comments and conversations everyone is having. I didn't realize that bringing up a topic on compassion would bring so much positive (and somewhat but not completely negative) feedback. You guys are teaching me-and eachother-alot. To be honest I was kind of nervous posting this, but now I am very glad since such good points are being made. Its just more practice for us to cultivate compassion in all times and to all people.
This has been very enlightening to read