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Buddhist tattoo leads to deportation
genkaku
Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
Comments
Ah yes, those prickly Sri Lankans. They do take "percieved" threats to Buddhism seriously. Very seriously. I guess the moral to the story is if you're visiting Sri Lanka, try to be a respectful as possible towards their religion.
I find it excessively officious, but then, I live in a society some may consider far too liberal. In some ways they'd be right.
I have all my tatoos where I can hide them...Now now: Nothing saucy....
Just came back via Sri Lanka, They didn't seem that bad to me; but then I don't have any buddhist tattoos...
Interesting. I wonder in what way they think a tattoo on a foreign visitor is a threat to Buddhism. If they really believe that, they must know the "threat" doesn't go away by just sending the person elsewhere, it just means they don't have to look at it, lol.
I have several tattoos, including a cross (that I did myself when I was a young teenager, so it's pretty horrid looking). Thankfully none of them have ever gotten me in trouble! It's always good to be well aware of customs and culture of the place you will be traveling to.
Not sure about tattoos, but the general philosophy is very much the same in Thailand.
Not really so much a "threat" as it is a sense of "disrespect".
Western tourists are often seen as a bunch of disrespectful louts. And they often are.
Oh I can believe that, for sure. But I personally don't agree that religious tattoos are disrespectful just simply for that fact. But of course, almost anything goes in the US. I'm always a little surprised at how little people research when they are visiting other countries. Not that most people from a western country will think to look up if their tattoo might cause a problem, I wouldn't, and most of the travel FAQs only cover dressing modestly and being respectful when visiting religious sites, not that you will be arrested and deported at the airport if someone sees your tattoo.
I think westerners tend to be disrespectful because they are ignorant. They take their "anything goes" ways of dressing and speaking and behaving everywhere they go, and it gets them in trouble. The whole idea of "when in Rome, do what the Romans do" is lost on a lot of them.
They would most likely suggest you tell it to the judge.
But I agree that, in my mind, a Buddha tatoo, like the one described, is really disrepectful.
But still, not my country, not laws I have to live under.
People show respect in different ways.
Sri Lanka monk/politicos are as bad as Hindu/Moslem/Christian/Secular or other interfering agenda following power freaks. They are behind this. They are ignorant. Laws and behaviour designed to belittle and marginalise can and should be challenged.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22356306
Apparently she has been there twice before with the tattoo on display and has never had an issue. She also identifies as a Buddhist shrugs
Goes on to prove that people sometimes get lost in the tree of religion and fail to see the wood.
In Nepal, Cambodia and Thailand, people worship the statues of the Buddha as if he were a god. How Buddhist they are to handle child prostitution and human slavery is another question...
I think I'd like to have you expand on that.
I'm not sure if this is, in part, what dharmamom is referring to, but there have been several stories in the past few months alone about people being promised legal jobs, looking for a better life in Thailand, only to be found they were sold to fishing boat owners/companies.
Such as this: http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/06/world/asia/thailand-fishing-modern-slavery-report/
There are many other reports if you google it.
Also, Sri Lanka and Thailand are both in the top 5 for child prostitution in the world (along with the US and Canada and Brazil).
If anything were needed to illustrate just how 'bizarre' life is.....
Having lived there, I'm far more aware of these types of things. What I am questioning is Dharmamom's implied criticism of Thai people.
Let's remember this is a discussion about a woman with a tattoo....
On topic, that is......
Hi, @vinlyn: I did not criticize Thai people "in particular." Like @karasti mentioned above, statistics are clear. Last year, Thailand ranked first, Mexico second, in human slavery. Cambodia and Nepal are somewhere in the ranking. I don't know Sri Lanka. But my personal reflection went to how in countries with a predominantly Buddhist population, where people are so attached to the ritualistic part of the religion to the point of being offended by a tatoo (in this case, in Sri Lanka) could morally put up with that darker aspect of society. My point had to do with double standards in certain societies and misinterpretation of religion , not with a critic to Thai people as individuals.
You see double standards everywhere.
The US was founded on a principal that "all men are created equal" but supported slavery for 90 years after the founding of the nation. It would be over 100 before women could vote. We still restrict rights in cases of certain minorities.
I doubt there's a nation who hasn't, at some point in history, displayed a double standard.
If Thailand has a double standard...... well..... welcome to the human race, I guess. If they jail people for being offensive towards Buddhism, but then endorse child prostitution, that is truly terrible, but not so unusual.
You can always go there and try to change things.
Okay, I just wanted to see where you were coming from on this. Anyone who has read many of my posts about Thailand in recent years knows that I am very "down" on Thailand at this point in my life. But even having said that, there are times I feel the need to stick up for Thais. Just to elaborate on that a bit:
I hold the Thai government -- from the King on down -- responsible for the disgrace of child prostitution and sex slavery that exists there.
The Thais that I have known abhor those things, and most are even disdainful of the attitude that in regard to sex, anything goes.
But when you get down to individuals...well, Thai society has a culture where it is often assumed that people are helpless to bring about change. Perhaps that is due to the monarchy concept of Thai government. Although many will tell you it is due to what is perceived as Buddhist passivity.
But that helplessness is well ingrained in the Thai psyche. One year I was staying at a flat that led me to walk pass a particular high class hotel virtually every day, usually more than once or twice a day. Virtually every time I would walk past, this one taxi driver would ask me if I wanted a woman. When I said no...angrily...he would ask if I wanted a man. Then a girl. Then a boy. My feeling was after asking me this over and over, how stupid was he that he didn't get my attitude? Now you might say that I should have alerted the BIB, and there was always one within sight (although they don't wear blue uniforms there). Because I can guarantee you that the taxi driver was giving a cut of his profit to the local police. Which only contributes to that feeling of helplessness among Thais.
One day I struck up a conversation with an amputee who was begging. I saw him day after day, and he spoke English. So I asked him what happened to his leg. Industrial accident (which are ridiculously common in Thailand). I asked him how he felt about that, and he responded, "Mai pben rai" (nothing to do, it doesn't matter now). Helplessness.
Another time some Thai students who had been in a student demonstrations that led to hundreds of them just disappearing struck up a conversation with me. I asked them how they now felt about those who had perpetrated the disappearances. Again, "Mai pben rai".
Now I mention this because I find myself comparing it to the average American who can very easily state their strong opinions about child prostitution and abuse, sex slavery in America, the poor, the homeless, or dozens of other social problems. And what their response usually is -- though not said directly -- somebody ought to do something about, but I don't want to get involved.
I know that people are totally helpless to change this plague. I know that these things happen everywhere. Mine was just a reflection. It simply makes me sad to be aware that even in Buddhist countries things like this can take place. Maybe this taxi driver who offered you a woman, a man, a child, went to the temple every day and made his prayers and prostrations to the Buddha thinking that that was enough to make him a good person. My point was that.
Yes, the US is no better. As a predominantly Christian nation we do a bad job of upholding the morals of the Christian religion while focusing on controlling the rights of others. So we do bad at interpreting our own constitution and bad at following a moral code that most people (Christian or otherwise) find reasonable. But in this case, while yes, I agree that countries have their own rules, I find it odd that they consider any tattoo of Buddha to be a bad thing worthy of deportation but they might put statues of Buddha all over the place where perhaps there are trashcans and other things that to me is more disrespectful of a tattoo.
Does anyone know what is behind the tattoo thing? I get that is is considered disrespect, but is there something further behind it about certain protections of the image of Buddha or something similar?
Personnaly i find it a bit radical to behave in such a way. In some cases people get a buddhist tattoo for a personal deep spiritual meaning. Thus the tattoo becomes a salute to the Buddha itself. Allthough i think one would have to look up on the views of each country you visit and follow their customs, it seems the moral sensitive thing to do. And avoids the spread of anger in the process. Thus the tourists could have covered up the tattoos to avoid the trouble and respect the Sri Lankaian governement and people.
I'm not arguing with you. I'm just trying to explain a different cultural perspective.
Just to expand a bit, two points:
In Western Buddhism I have often heard the belief that Buddhists should see things as they are. In SE Asian Buddhism it is more that Buddhists should accept things as they are.
And then you have something I didn't really emphasize in the example of the amputee and the college students -- that if you are that amputee, it's not someone else's fault, it's your own karma.
I agree, like I said, with looking up information on the country you visited, but out of curiosity I looked at the FAQ and travel information for many travel websites, and not a single one of them mentioned covering Buddhist tattoos or anything regarding Buddhism at all outside of modest dress and removal of shoes at temples/monasteries. It's so common place (tattoos) in the western world that most people wouldn't stop to think to ask if they should be covered or anything else. I certainly wouldn't have, until I read this thread.
Only my guess -- there are many tattoos all over the world that portray sex and violence and things that are generally not due respect. Buddha is due respect.
About what you have just said, @vinlyn: a few days ago, a man was sitting across me on the bus. He had a word tattooed on each finger: pain, regret, punishment, hatred, violence... and others on the same line. Nice mantras to live by!
I agree, but why do they (if you or anyone knows) consider a tattoo of Buddha that depicts him in a respectful manner, to be disrespectful compared to otherwise placing public viewable versions of Buddha? I guess basically I'm curious what they think might be the difference between seeing Buddha in a famous pose as a tattoo on a forearm versus seeing Buddha in the same pose as a statue or poster or whatever. I can see why they would have a problem with a tattoo of Buddha with a naked lady in his lap, or a tattoo of Buddha on someone's buttcheek or whatever.
Why do people at the national royal temple get hit with a stick if their feet are unintentionally pointing toward the base of the Buddhist statue, even though the Emerald Buddha is actually 20 or more feet above?
Why do most Americans not believe in evolution?
I can't explain lots of things. It just is.
I was thinking more about this, @Karasti, while I was shopping, and I think I may have at least part of the answer. At least in Thailand, it was naturally assumed that if you weren't at least an Asian, then you weren't Buddhist. Therefore, you are using an image of Buddha for decoration, rather than for veneration.
I think that may be it, because as I thought it, I remember seeing Thais with usually simple tattoos of Buddha.
Yeah cause history shows how successful that is............
I think it's more a case of double standards as mentioned by several people here. However, I WOULD like to see how it would have been handled if it had been a Thai with the tattoo......
Note to self: Cover Buddha tattoo with bandage when visiting Sri Lanka.
i have doubt about the report where it is applicable to Sri Lanka
do we ever think who are the other party (male in case of girl prostitution and female in case of boy prostitution) involve in sex industry in Thailand?
Majority come from which part of the world?
can not those wealth can spend on poor boys and girls in Thailand or any where in the world?
respect or disrespect is in the mind of the person who wears the tattoo
that can not be judge by the people outside
but
there should be some limits
i heard (but never saw) some people printed Buddha's picture on toilet papers
i dear say that is very disrespectful
@upekka here is one report, there are others, regarding Sri Lanka
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/sex-tourists-prey-on-sri-lankas-children-beach-resorts-are-huntinggrounds-for-european-child-abusers-and-pornographic-video-makers-tim-mcgirk-reports-from-colombo-1407820.html
I'm not sure what you mean about the sex industry in Thailand? Yes, absolutely it is driven mostly by rich tourists from Europe and North America, no doubt. But a lot of the reason they go there is because the laws either allow for it, or officials look the other way. Neither side is innocent, not the rich people for buying sex with children but neither the people/governments in those countries for allowing it to continue to happen, I'm sure in large part because of the tourist money their travels bring in.
@vinlyn thank you for your input, that makes a lot of sense. I didn't mean to assume you had all the answers, I was just curious if you or anyone else happened to know what might be behind it.
It is time people started declaring themselves as living shrines:
Namo Buddha
No need to spend yourself into the poorhouse to do it. 45 minutes with some felt pens ought to do the job.
Indeed - but it is beautiful work
Yes, it is beautiful. But what was his intent behind it.
I think the reasoning on why some see it as disrespectful is because they feel the human body is untidy, could end up in the wrong place, and may be burned to ashes. They don't want to know of how that image could have been part of various bodily acts, or have to burn an image that they worship. This is just my opinion.
This comment from another website discussing this tattoo issue:
Someone being offended by such a thing is their own fault and shows weakness through and through.
We people come up with the dumbest things to get bent out of shape over.
Likely the same intent behind any statue you may see.
I'm not sure that's "likely" at all. Some people choose a tattoo only because of its beauty (or some such attribute). I've seen many tattoos of Jesus on a cross, and trust me, the people are not usually devout Christians.
>
You should see some of the tatoos that some Penitentes in New Mexico have - gorgeous, involved, and VERY Christian
Yes but look at the guys tat... If he is Buddhist then the intent would seem to be the same behind any Buddhist statue adorning a residence and if he isn't then only he must live with it... Surely it can't affect our practice one way or another.
Some people choose a tattoo only because of its beauty (or some such attribute). I've seen many tattoos of Jesus on a cross, and trust me, the people are not usually devout Christians
.
how do you know people's (others) intention unless they say 'so'
see
we judge them by looking at a tattoo or looking at the person wearing the tattoo
I have some Pali on my feet, as a daily reminder to myself to be grateful and aware etc... In the Uk, no-one sees it, but when I went on pilgrimage to India many people, some Buddhist, some Hindu etc were very shocked to see Dharma/Dhamma on my feet, associated as the are with lower chakras (I think, please dont cruxify me if this is incorrect)... I had to explain the cultural difference between East and West on many occasions, and also quote the Kalama sutta ;-)
This doesn't surprise me.. Then again, I saw some Japanese monk with what looked like old Yakuza tattoos on that trip... guys who had clearly done some time (face tattoos etc)... Its a beautifully f*cked up world peeps ;-) ain't called Samsara for no reason xx
I don't think I said that it did. That particular tattoo is, in my opinion, an exquisite work of art.
I have personally known a couple of people who had a tat of Buddha, and they were not Buddhist.
I have a friend who has a tat of the tazmanian devil, she certainly isn't one, nor a worshiper of them, lol. (I know that's not what you were saying, Vinlyn)
You never know where people made changes in their lives along the way, who inspires them, and so on. I have a cross tattoo on my ankle that I did myself a very long time ago, so one could say I have a cross when I am not a Christian. I have a tribal lizard when I am not tribal by any means.
Anyhow, I don't really have a point. Except that maybe why someone gets a tattoo doesn't matter one bit. I'm not sure why their intention would matter, I doubt those who would kick someone out for the tattoo would care about intention either, as it seems they do not ask.
Actually, I think you made the point perfectly.
Yesterday I was in one of the official residences of the King of Siam (I think that is him or Yul Brynner on the left, did you recognize the guy on the right?)
In doing prostrations to the unknown symbolic Shakyamuni, I may also have been bowing to monarchy . . .
Tattoos and temporary skin. Nothing we can not moult, insult, use as symbols of state oppression or venerate as a relic . . .
Dharma or Dodo? You choose
Oh, lookee here....