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Help me accept death
banned_crab
Veteran
in Meditation
Through sayings, through videos or anything that you can tell me. I just want to accept death because there is nothing to attain in life.
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@heyimacrab It helps to remind yourself that you didn't exist in the past, so what are you afraid of? You're the universe taking a new form for a little while, and then changing again, no worries.
Mark Twain: “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
@heyimacrab Since there's nothing to fear in death, all you have to worry about is what to do with your life. Most people don't even know what they want to "do" until their late 20's or mid-30's (if not even later), so don't feel like you'll never know...
You're a bit of conscious universe, you can do what you like! Well, up to a point where you're impeded by circumstances or other people. Still, there's a lot you could do.
And if i never find out than at least i lived 20 or 30 years
Well, that's not really true. There are lots of things to attain in life. I'm 47 now, have achieved some of the things I wanted to; others not yet (and possibly never). But the things that I have managed to accomplish bring me a sense of fulfillment and joy.
From the Buddhist perspective, any worldly activities we undertake are impermanent and will not ultimately satisfy us or answer our existential questions. Nevertheless, they can be rewarding at the time -- and sometimes that is enough.
And I can tell you one thing (from my perspective as an older guy)...you will feel a lot better about death if you do something constructive during your life.
If there's nothing you feel like doing, then perhaps you could go on retreat and learn how to enter jhana states. I've heard they are pretty cool.
This here is one of my all time favorite videos about death.
Another one of my all time favorite videos where Thich Nhat Hanh talks about death.
death isn't something you attain, either.
Accepting the process and act of dying is....a process. There isn't a magic saying that'll make it happen for you.
Sogyal Rinpoche's The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying is excellent, and so is Dying with Confidence by Anyen Rinpoche.
Dying is just as much a part of life as anything else. Mostly in the western world, people have a hard time with dying/death because we pretend it doesn't exist, and when it does happen, we don't talk about it much. We certainly don't prepare for it, and the medical world does not help us, either. We are pretty much taught to avoid dying at all costs, and doctors are trained to save lives no matter what. It's quite engrained in our society that death is unwanted and to be avoided.
It's interesting to note that it's not usually death that most people fear, it is suffering before the moment of death. That suffering is part of what can be worked through in practice and meditation.
One thing that helps some (it has helped me with the suffering aspect) is to do death meditation. There better directions online, but you basically go through a contemplative meditation where you imagine yourself getting old, being ill, suffering in a hospital (or whatever) and eventually dying, and then you imagine your body decaying and so on. The whole process. It makes you face it, that is the point. All the things we try to avoid thinking about.
Be cautious of falling into a nihilistic view of Buddhism. Your last sentence comes across as a bit that way, but I might just be reading it wrong. Nihilism (deciding there is no point, so why really bother with anything) is on the extreme end and should be avoided. The point is not that there is nothing to attain, not quite in the manner you seem to be saying. Truly understanding what is meant by emptiness, and "there is no you, and there is nothing to attain" are advanced ideas that are difficult to understand. It takes time and practice and gradual learning to get to understanding them.
@heyimacrab Is there some reason why thoughts about death prey upon your mind lately?
There is plenty of rich experience in life. Attainment is relative, like points on a map. You are here, you are there.
From what I hear and understand, 'nothing to attain' is not a useful knowledge to conduct your life by unless the wisdom necessary to understand what 'no attainment necessary' means. A young person cannot possibly have the life experience to 'get' that. You are supposed to be diving deeply into experience, going after your heart's desire. You can do this knowing that what you experience or attain (like a college degree) won't be the Great Awakening, but one does need something to do, to make money by, get good at, and enjoy in this life.
In other words, you don't 'get' the wisdom behind no attainment, thus it just looks like some long bleak grey nothingness to look forward to (because you still have most of your life ahead of you, how can you not be looking forward?). Seeing nothing but bleakness is wrong view. It's not true at all, and it won't happen that way when we check in about this in 20 years
It's the same way nonBuddhists get Buddhism 'wrong'. My Christian friend, who is very openminded, has asked me some challenging questions about Buddhsim. The great wisdoms of Buddhism often sound like nihilism and why would ANYONE want that? They sound that way without the concomitant wisdom necessary to flesh them out.
I am not deluding myself or anyone else by saying it feels great to not plan on any further great attainments. Then again, I'm almost 50. But I remember being 20 and 30 and NOT having this perspective -- yet. You aren't supposed to. It's developmentally normal to look forward to attainments at your age, and you need to seek them and try for them. It's OK to have goals and ambitions. They will give you plenty of fulfillment, AND, they will not give you the true fulfillment.
As for 'true fulfillment', whatever that is, one can continue this search along with doing the things young folks do. I'd even encourage some to forget about that wisdom for a while, it can't possibly be helpful or applied except in very subtle ways, and being subtle just isn't something a young person is prepared to be, developmentally.
There's a big difference between believing there is nothing out there for you because you are afraid you are going to just fail anyway and really understanding there is nothing more because you already have everything you need.
^ most definitely.
Getting what you thought you wanted, never is enough. You always want something else. But it takes time to learn that lesson, and independence to find your own way, set your own rules, live your own life.
I have far fewer worldly desires to attempt to attain these days. I have a family/spouse, a house, a car, I went to college etc. But there are still things we have to work for to attain, like savings for our childrens' college expenses, savings for car repairs or house repairs or our retirement. There is always something to work towards attaining. The difference is in losing the attachment to getting exactly what your ego thinks you need, at which time you thin need it, and exactly in which shape and color you think need it.
I was raised to believe the things you "want so bad you can taste it" are the things worth striving for. But in reality, what we are really striving is for something that type of attaining cannot give us. It's one of those lessons many (maybe most) people don't learn until they've spent a lot of time trying to attain, failing, and then finally attaining and realizing it wasn't until they let go that they finally got what they wanted...and it often is far different from what they initially thought they wanted. Things are funny that way
Life is a wonderful thing. So whatever you want in your life, by all means, work towards it! Just do so with an understanding in the back of your mind that as you get older, what you want, might change, and that is ok. And sometimes, you won't get what you are working towards. And that is ok, too. Because something always comes. Whatever ideas you have about how you want your live to look 20 years from now, are probably vastly different from what it'll really look like. So, don't worry about it. Enjoy whatever you choose to spend your time doing now.
This is long, so I won't post it here, but I remember reading it when I was probably 20 or so, and thought it was pretty profound. Turns out, it is
http://www.rogerknapp.com/inspire/Dancelike.htm
It made logical sense when I was 20. But it took a lot of experience to understand the reality of it.
There would be no purpose or meaning. But the nature of mind is luminous and sensitive thus there is inherent in the mind a sense of meaning. Even when it seems meaningless we wouldn't notice that if we didn't sense another possibility.
When it comes knocking on your door, and it will eventually, what else is there to do but accept it? I will not give death more than is due, it cannot have my last moments only after. Once you have set that determination before you, you can stare it in the eye.
It will come for you but it cannot have more than its due.
Perhaps this is not you...
For you..
If life is your enemy is death nothing but a friend? Embrace him. Feel the love of one who ends your suffering.
No! embrace everything with equanimity such that it includes all life and death, it is what it is.
I thought the end goal was the ultimate death, the destruction of individuality, to never be reborn again...?
@Grayman That's the kinda nihilistic view that people have to overcome. The end goal of Buddhism is to stop the cycle of suffering, it's not about bleeping out of existence... but about realizing what your "existence" actually entails. Seeing things as they are.
Suffering, however, doesn't disappear on its own... it has to be extinguished through a practice to undo all the ignorance that causes it.
How do we lose our suffering without giving up our humanity?
@Grayman Please firstly define "humanity", and then explain how it's "given up" by Buddhists just because they're living more fully in the real world and experience less personal suffering.
Enlightened beings, as they're called, are more authentically "human" (kind, compassionate, wise and non-judgmental) than people caught up in delusion. I think you mistake a lot of things about Buddhism... a lot. Are you really new to Buddhism and here to learn, or are you anti-Buddhism for some reason and here for another purpose?
@heyimacrab
What have you really learned to accept in your practice so far? How did you do that?
If you have really learned how to accept something difficult in your practice, could not those same lessons apply towards accepting death.
If you have not yet really learned to accept anything difficult so far then perhaps you should set your sights first on something less challenging.
I believe that suffering dissapears when the self dissapears.
You guys dont know me in real life so I may come across as very serious and unhappy. Although in truth I experience alot of joy but I also experience suffering. I am not a strict and depressed empty hearted person as you may imagine. I just dont want to achieve the same things and then lose them and repeat the process over and over again. I have found that buddhism changed everything for me and I follow it with great determination. I feel that most of you use it as a 'side' thing. A lot of you still just sound like the regular american people who cling to their lives and are unconsciously self centered.
I am a new yorker so I am surrounded by the stereotypical mess in society and I was one of them. The people are self centered and they only drink and pleasure their problems away. That being said, The purpose of this discussion is not for me to accept death and end life. I want to accept death so I can begin life.
That's exactly so. When the "false" self disappears, anyway (the mental construct). There's no true "self", because that word describes something that is truly apart and independent, and generally lasting, and none of those attributes apply.
When the false self crumbles away completely (as insight arises and extinguishes delusion), the craving/thirst that is the cause of suffering also goes. This usually happens gradually, but after perhaps years of practice there should be a definite difference in your experience of life (more peace and calm, less anxiety and frustration).
So...we are misjudging you because we don't know you, but you feel you are correct in your assessment of all of us without knowing any of us? Huh.
The purpose of this discussion is not for me to accept death and end life. I want to accept death so I can begin life.
This I can understand I think.
Kindof: I destroyed myself and remade myself to my own choosing instead of being defined by my circumstance. It takes courage.
Thats a better path. I personally would like to destroy muself and 'unmake' myself.
Its just that when I gave up suffering I could no longer connect to people on their level. People sometimes need to suffer with you and I had ignored that aspect causing them more pain and giving them the belief that I dont care about them.
Please define the accusations I made of Buddhists as I only recall asking questions when pertaining to Buddhism itself.
@Grayman Maybe it wasn't suffering you gave up, because it's not something you can just give up (in the past) and take back up again in the present, which is the implication of what you just said. You make Buddhism out to be nihilistic because you've misunderstood and had bad experiences; that answers my question well enough.
Why do you think I am attacking Buddhism if I made no accusations?
@Grayman Chill with the "accusations"! I was asking you questions about what you know about Buddhism (if you're "new" to it), or what your relationship is to Buddhism, because of how nihilistic you were making it out to be. There's clearly something wrong with the picture of Buddhism you have.
It doesn't seem like you have a clear idea of what giving up suffering means in Buddhists terms. Are you familiar with the kleshas? Working on eliminating them brings more clarity. It makes things easier for you and the people around you. Not more difficult. What kind of suffering did you give up that caused you to not connect to people? Whatever it was, it wasn't what is intended on the Buddhist path. You don't need to maintain negative mind states just so someone else can suffer with you. Removing suffering doesn't mean you stop caring about others. Quite the opposite, it opens the door for you to care more, to be there more, because you are less affected by their states of mind.
@AldrisTorvalds
So only those with answers need to be part of a thread?
Who is to say that another question does not best address the needs of the OP?
@how That wasn't the point at all, it was making sure we weren't being trolled.
Kinda paranoid.
@robot I don't think so, given the posts. When someone continually says negative things about Buddhism, they're probably either getting their information from an unreliable source, or lashing out. Hence the questions, to which defensive answers were given just making it sound more likely. Hopefully there's no problem so the thread can continue, maybe someone can learn something.
Fair enough. I just wasn't getting the feeling that Grayman was insincere.
I don't see it nihilistic in the sense that it denies the value of morality. It transcends life in a sense. That transcendence make you unrelatable to others although kind.
@Grayman Unenlightened (worldly) beings can't relate well with enlightened beings, because they don't really know what it's like to be enlightened, but the other way? Enlightened beings can certainly relate to the suffering of those around them, because they understand suffering fully and have transcended it. They can be like doctors healing the sick, which is a good analogy, and why do they do it? Because compassion is a naturally arising attribute of clarity. Find a single enlightened being that doesn't show compassion for the suffering of others, and you'd have some kinda case.
Not all enlightened beings are well-suited to teaching, but they're all compassionate.
I think you've just had a bad experience in the past, and you've conflated that with what true enlightenment means. Time to start over!
I do ask tough questions so it understandable that you might percieve me that way. I have two oppositions in my mind, pure skeptism and pure openmindedness. Your intution is perceptive of my skeptism but I mean no ill will.
I used 'unrelatable' not unrelating to others. It just seems like enlightenment is lonely and people already have a hard time relating to me so the prospect of that makes me lonelier.
@Grayman I understand how you feel, but I think you have it backwards. Enlightenment is much more "one with everything" than lonely, but even that misses the mark somewhat. It's like extending yourself outward until there's no more judgmental differentiation... like taking the love you feel for your children or immediate family and extending that to everyone equally. This is the "universal compassion" type of love that isn't selfish, that only wants the best for others. Loneliness comes from separating yourself from other people, which is the opposite of enlightenment. Eckhart Tolle is certainly always in the midst of people, do you think he's lonely? How about the Dalai Lama?
In your own words, it's the "prospect" that makes you lonelier. It's how you're thinking about it, your outlook now that is the problem. Enlightenment is a resolution to that kind of negative thinking, and even the circumstances of how you relate to and interact with others. Think of it as moving toward being a more loving and open person like the Dalai Lama or Eckhart Tolle. What problems would you possibly have with others? You'd have no problem with them, you'd treat them all as fully deserving of all happiness, and your speech and actions toward others would be reciprocated with equal kindness.
It really is a change, but not a change to be feared. It's like growing up a second time.
I see your effort and your determination.
Just be aware that you only see what you are looking for.
It's the stuff you need most that you have no idea to look for.
In reality, accept anything and you also accept death. You can't escape it. It's everywhere and anything can be a reminder.
Not to deny it is how you would be accepting it.
@heyimacrab I don't know whether to give you a "nice" answer or to be blunt as hell.
I'm going to be blunt because I feel you need it.
I'm dying. It sucks. It's going to happen to you at some point. I'm 38 and it's too young so I'm fighting it anyway I can. You haven't indicated you're anything other than healthy. I don't know how old you are but I'm going to assume 20-30's. If you're healthy, don't be ungrateful and focus on death. LIVE YOUR LIFE because if I was healthy I'd be f@@ked if I was going to contemplate my navel and let life pass me by. It doesn't make you windswept and interesting when you post these posts. But it does give me the shits that you have all this life and you're wasting it on something that none of us can avoid. You don't have to accept death. It's going to happen whether you like it or not. Let it go and LIVE already.
ETA - I'm not attacking you or angry with you. I'm just calling it as it is. At the end of the day, you can take or leave my advice, I have no control over it. But I AM being blunt because I want you to realise how good you've got it. I'd give so much to be in your position.
Also @heyimacrab, if you have been paying attention you would not have to ask. People here have suffered painful losses of loved ones, and shared their pain and acceptance here. As well as dhammachick's brave and graceful acceptance of her impending death.
Open your eyes.
This doesnt help me because to continue 'living' implies that I continue doing what ive been doing. Accepting death means to live fully. No matter how long you live you will always wish it were longer if you did not first accept death. Everybody tells me "just live bro" but what does it mean to continue living when you are not living fully? "Live your life" is good advice only if I first change to make the life worth living.
Dont you see? the reason you want to live is because you know that you are going to die. If I knew I was going to die id like to live as well. The good wouldnt be called 'good' if there were no bad. Sadly, I dont know that im going to die. I dont truly believe that I will die so I think of things in terms of survival and profit, therefore most things cease to produce magic.
So, now you want to be told how to live your life?
Right, change to make the life worth living. But since you have to do it, you and perhaps a counsellor need to hash out what you think to change and can change, and define some ways to approach changing what you think you need to change but do not know how yet. In Buddhism a guru can help you and guide you. We are trying to help but lack info that should not be publicly shared but must be shared somehow.
AYFKM???????? Grow up
I dont like guidance because it creates obscurity. The teachings of Jesus were never received correctly by the christians because they never figured things out on their own. When you figure things out on your own you will see things the way the teacher sees them.
What is difficult to understand? I speak with honesty but it seems that everybody wants to cover their eyes and keep their ways. If I cannot even accept the death of a positive emotion or a past relationship than how can I accept the death of myself? This is what needs to be changed.
Honesty? No false angst.
If you really want to know, hold your breath till you pass out. Jump off a cliff. NO ONE can show you how death feels, which is really the crux of it.
No you don't like guidance because you don't want to be told (or feel like you are being told). Sorry to burst your emo bubble princess, but no one who understands death has ever come back to tell us about it. Life sucks - you can either accept death as an end to that (but a stepping stone to rebirth in the cycle of Samsara) OR you can put the Eightfold Noble Truth to work and change that. Who knows? In doing so you may find you accept death with no qualms.
Either way, you have to get off your arse and put in an effort. Stop your pity party, there are plenty here worse off than you or I.
There is nothing lasting that you can attain. There is nothing permanent other than ability to let go and subtle mind.>
How do you define worst off?
I feel that people who believe that their lives are worst than others see it in terms of concept instead of in terms of suffering. In the exact same way, people like to tell themselves that they are 'happier' than others when their happiness is mind based. They do not feel happiness but they believe it in their head.