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Interesting comment re karma
vinlyn
Colorado...for now Veteran
I was listening to a radio show today on NPR, and they were interviewing a woman who had gone into some type of not-for-profit organization (I think she founded it, but I missed the early part of the interview). They asked her if she had taken a huge pay cut, and she responded that she had, but that helping so many people had earned her lots more "karma dollars".
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You do good things for people, people do good things for you? Sorta a "My Name Is Earl" simplified version of karma.
And ....... ?
People use "karma" in all sorts of ways.
It's a new Buddhist alternative currency, the best part is it keeps the karma in the area and supports the local ekarmany.
Interesting, vinlyn. I don't know the woman from the interview or whether she was making a joke about it or if she was serious, so I can only give my opinion and ask more questions.
I've observed people using the term karma mostly in a negative way. They gloat over someone's misfortune and say, "what goes around - comes around!" in a most satisfied manner. So, it's not a stretch to see people expressing it as a bankable commodity.
Here's my opinion- If people do good for the sake of others without thought of reward- it's a true act. If they are motivated by self concern, the act is conditional. Still helpful to others but not with the same intention. Karma becomes a similar motivator like the Christians' heaven and hell.
Now for my question- Since we are told that karma and rebirth are the pathway to higher consciousness by many teachers, is it the most effective path? It just seems too convoluted to me. We are observing some tragic results concerning many of or returning soldiers. Some have been deployed too many times, facing dangerous, high risk assignments. They come home, many suffering from PTSD, physical and mental injuries that alter their lives dramatically. Isn't the rebirth cycle similar? Could the constant cycle of lives hurt rather than help? Is this the cause of mental disorders?
Interesting POV, @Pye. I'm unconvinced about rebirth...open-minded, but unconvinced. And we don't really understand karma. The old-world version of karma is much different than the lillified Western version that is quite common. In the old-world, karma is a definite consequence. In the West they have whitewashed it. Not saying which approach is right, if either is.
You do give us good material to work with, vinlyn.
I just find these religious/philosophical concepts too rife with inconsistency. Many leaders exploit these teachings to manipulate people. I too, am unconvinced about rebirth and karma. Karma can be described as the results from your actions, - but there are many variable that seem to override it. Two people can commit the same "crime"- if one is from an unpopular group- they are punished harshly and the other, being from a favored group, will be let off lightly- if punished at all. How is this consistent? Is karma a teaching tool or is it a cosmic debit/credit card? If so, isn't there a more effective way of teaching a lesson? How does anyone become proficient in any skill if they do not learn from their mistakes in real time?
I think there is a danger in relying too heavily on these religious concepts. People can use them as an excuse to abuse others. There are always those who take any concept to a dark place and wield it like a weapon. Such beliefs can harden people and diminish their ability to be compassionate if it is applied that way. I think of it as the path to indifference and petty vengeance.
I think that's why the Buddha said that no one can know the exact workings of karma. It's impossible (or unlikely) to say that any one action will have any one consequence. Karma speaks more in generalities... generally these actions lead to bad results, and generally these actions lead to good results. It doesn't attempt to "quantify". The entire purpose of teachings about karma is to show that with concerted effort, performing skillful actions, we can cultivate good results (preferably a little thing called enlightenment).
I'm no expert on the subject, to be sure! Many of you have studied Buddhism for a long time and are well read on the teachings. I come from an agnostic approach. I've spent the majority of my life believing in similar principles. I can no longer hold that point of view. I would not deny others their feelings on the matter, but I'm pretty much done with dogma.
Again, this is just my opinion, but I think the universe operates more on the mathematical set of fractals repeating patterns. That is why it's important to embrace clear, positive behaviour patterns because they will replicate and become the patterns that dominate our world. I don't think that holding on to old beliefs from the Bronze Age are the best templates for today. I'm not saying that there isn't some great, useful wisdom to be gleaned from them, but best to leave the tools of control and vengeance in more primitive times.
@Pye Dogma is never good. If it's true, you should be able to find out for yourself. If it's false or there's no way to know, you shouldn't have to believe it.
some people may think it is unpalatable to say karma dollars.
but that is karma whether in dollars, cents or rupees.
sow a good seed and reap the fruits later.
doesnt matter how you put it.
it does not change the law of karma.
Get real , people.
Everything we do is for selfish reasons.
unless you are fully enlightened.
as long as you still have an ego, you do even kind acts for selfish reasons.
If I volunteer at an old folks' home, it is bcause I feel good.
that is a selfish reason too. It is idealistic BS to think that
ordinary people can do things for pure altruistic reasons.
What is wrong with doing a good deed because you believe, it is good karma?
There are not that many saints in this world.
Doing a good deed and expecting a good 'karma dollars' sure beats not doing anything.
I was a teacher. I tried to be a good teacher and helped
the weaker and poorer (financially) students.
But at the end of the day, I do it because I get a salary at the end of every month.
I would not be teaching in the school if they did not pay me a salary.
so does that make me a bad teacher? I was expecting karma dollars as well as a paycheck for my efforts. No I aint no saint or arahant. Are you?
So, every time you did something for a poor student, you always had "I'm getting paid for this, so it's ok..."
You never took yourself out of your way, went that extra mile, put yourself out for them... It was all about the paycheck...?
there are some things, which we have to believe in order to travel any spiritual path - that is why shradha or faith is an important factor in any spiritual path - because everything cannot be tried and tested out to know, when the path is started.
as far as law of karma goes, it can be seen to work in normal daily life situations - but the calculation of the effect of a present action of when and how much is difficult to access, because law of karma takes past actions as well as present actions to determine an effect in present, but how much of which past action and how much of present action will produce when and how much effect is difficult to know, but the only thing which law of karma guarantees is that no good deed ever goes unrewarded and no bad deed ever goes unpunished, the only question is of when and how much which is difficult to know.
That is the problem ; your equating Karma with subsequent 'punishment' or 'reward' is where errors in understanding occur.
It is quite simply, "Wrong View ".
They asked her if she had taken a huge pay cut, and she responded that she had, but that helping so many people had earned her lots more "karma dollars".
Maybe she was saying that money isn't the only reason for doing good?
just to clarify - i have not used the words punish or reward from a judgemental angle, rather i just wanted to say that law of karma states that if we do good to others, then good will be done to us and if we do bad to others, then bad will be done to us.
Ok. But there is no time precedent...
When you understand that we are not separate, but parts of one whole, then doing good for others is in fact doing good for yourself. Harming others harms yourself. This is the essence of Karma.
I suspect her using "karma dollars" is a way of explaining this in material terms to an interviewer more interested in her finances.
sorry, but my view on Karma is different from above.
my view says: When we understand that we are not separate, there is no need to think about karma at that stage since oneness would have been realized at that stage.
Law of Karma states that as you sow, so you reap - the important thing to note here is that till there is a sense of 'I' doing something, the result of action will be coming back to that 'I'.
when non-duality or oneness is realized, then there will be no 'I', no 'other' at that time, so when something for others will be done that will be done, just because it needs to be done and there will be no sense of something is being done for 'other', as by that time the sense of 'I' at the first place will not be there. so the acts for others will be done, just because they need to be done and not because 'I' need to do something for 'others' - similarly like when the leg's toe gets hurt, the hand automatically tries to hold the leg's toe to give it comfort, because there is no sense of separation between hand and leg's toe, but sense of one body - kind of weird analogy, but something like that seems to be the case when oneness would be realized.
That imagery works for me, many thanks. Karma as a Mandelbrot . . .
I hope this isn't too disrespectful, but this whole business of karmic law spanning many lifetimes and "ripening" to effect someone at just the right time- (when they're the most vulnerable)- seems more like passive aggressive abuse. Anyone who has had to live or work with a passive aggressive recognizes the manipulation, invalidation, blame, and all the other tools employed by the abuser. It's always turned around on the victim, they are expected to assume all blame for problems.This only works if the victim accepts it- like negative religious/spiritual teachings.
I don't know where you got that from but it's pure conjecture and relatively ridiculous at that...
Just an opinion based on how such a concept could be applied in human interaction. I find these conversations interesting but they do not convince me that karma and rebirth are fact. They are, of course, a matter of personal faith. I think they are more the construct of ancient Hindu culture rather than of religion.
What do you think kamma is?
You know there are different ways to interpret rebirth, of course...?
Different ways to interpret "rebirth", indeed. And all are wrong, except one.
I belief rebirth can come in forms other than actual physical rebirth. An epiphany can be a kind of rebirth. Kamma is simply action. I don't connect it with a moral justice which, for some of us, implies a supreme being.
Neither does anyone else here.
Basically I'm just wondering what your point was...
It was my impression that the Op put the comment made in the interview up for a conversation about how people view "karma". Maybe I misread the intention.
HHDL agreed with you. Being good to ourselves is also creating positive karma because it is done for a sentient being. Just because you want to feel good does not eliminate your wish that others feel good. For example I treat my girlfriend well not just because it makes life easier to me with less fights and more love. I treat her good both for her and for me.
Love exists. My teachers teacher is very old and one thing he wanted to make clear to his students was that love exists.
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Is believing in making merit such a bad thing? Why would someone been drawn to anything if they didn't see some form of value in it? Even disbelieving is seeing a value in not believing.
Why are you assuming I saw this as a negative thing?
My bad, I should have quoted some of the reponses instead.
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You can accuse @vinlyn of doing many things but putting things up just to elicit responses and views of kamma? He would not stoop to such means.
If he was even curious he would ask.
No, I think he just wants views on the expression used.
I'm not accusing anyone of anything! I like and respect vinlyn- I enjoy his thoughtful posts. Wow- you really take thing the wrong way! In any case, it's probably better to ask more questions if I'm not sure in the future. I seem to have gotten on your bad side. I'll withdraw from this conversation so that others can continue without any further missteps from me.
Just one more thing- @ vinlyn- I am so sorry to have caused any problems on your thread. I meant no disrespect and I am not accusing you of anything. I hope that I have not offended you.
Okay everybody. Calm down. I just thought the broadcast I heard was interesting, and it reminded me of how the Thais "earn" good karma by doing good deeds.
Everybody's fine. I like you all. (There, I just earned some karma dollars). ;-)
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No take it easy, I didn't take anything the wrong way, there's no need to be defensive it's fine.
The problem is, our smiley emoticons don't work...
You are most certainly NOT on my bad side, everything's cool...
It's hard when all you have is the written word and only a phone to post with...
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Yes, without the emoticons we have no online body language...not to mention the quote function not working.
It's not?
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't
@vinlyn I have noticed that not "everything" always quotes, sometimes it's just the first part or paragraph, is that what you mean? I've found you can manually quote stuff, all you need is to put a greater-than sign in front of each continuous line.
We shouldn't have to do any of that. But I'm sure @Lincoln is aware and working on it....
Emoticons do work - see: ... :vimp: ...
but you have to 'encase them'
:om:
does not work on its own, but put it in a :om: sentence or between 2 ellipses like this ... :om: ...
tada
@anataman Another trick I picked up, you can use a forced space from HTML after your emoticon -- an " " followed by a semicolon ";" -- if you want to use an emoticon at the end of the sentence or by itself on a line. Picking up all sorts of tricks here. See:
:clap:
I see
@hermitwin I kind of feel bad for you if you honestly think that. It is different, to do something and realize it makes you feel good, than to do something BECAUSE it makes you feel good. There are things people do for others, all the time, that are not a result of them saying "Hm, I should help this person, because it'll make me feel good." Some people do truly do things just because they want to help. It doesn't make those people saints or anything else of the sort. But it doesn't make them selfish, either. Sometimes one does the right thing just because it's the right thing to do. Not to advertise it, not to gain points, not for an expectation of anything in return. When giving can be done without an expectation of anything at all in return, to me, that is what it's all about.
I am so sorry to see that the teacher vocation is getting lost. My son's school is full of employees with a salary, and empty of teachers.
I have been so inspired by real teachers throughout my life, people whose spark and wit was so contagious, people who really wanted to teach you and help you make a diffence in your life, people whose life was an example of wisdom...
I hope my son has that fortune too.
I'm not upset with anyone. federica. Personality and tone are not easy to express in this form of communication.
I'm not a Buddhist but I'm interested. I avoid threads dedicated to religious text. Karma, as a concept, is a particular bugaboo for me. I look at it from an analytical rather than spiritual POV and I'm sure my observations are not typical for this topic, but sometimes these odd conversations can yield some good responses. Even if just to tell me I'm being ridiculous.
Happy Monday!