Spiritual Materialism
Jeffrey
Veteran
This moved me from Trungpa's book Training the MInd which is about lojong/mind training/tonglen:
Abandon Poisonous Food
**If the practice of egolessness begins to become just another way of building your ego--building your ego by giving up your ego--it is like eating poisonous food; it will not take effect. In fact, rather than providing an eternally awakened state of mind, it will provide you with death, because you are holding on to your ego. So if your reason for sitting or doing postmeditation practice or any other kind of practice is self-improvement, it is like eating poisonous food. "If I sit properly with the greatest discipline and exertion, then I will become the best meditator of all"--that is a poisonous attitude.
This is a very powerful slogan for us. It means that whatever we do with our practice, if that practice is connected with personal achievement, which is called "spiritual materialism," or the individual glory that we are right and others are wrong, and we would like to conquer their wrongness or evil because we are on the side of God and so forth--that kind of bullshit or cow dung is regarded as eating poisonous food. Such food may be presented to us beautifully and nicely, but when we begin to eat it, it stinks.**
I find myself that I have eaten poisonous food. I think the bold is relevant to this whole forum.
Comments
You are right @Jeffrey and the only antidote is to abandon ego=less=ness; but by doing so don't fall foul to the desire that desires to abandon this state, as it will only bring you back to yourself.
Always good to get a reminder!
Sometimes though, one could think "I am right and s/he is wrong" - and one would be correct.
Middle Way. Have conviction in your knowledge and wisdom, but see them as willow
Saplings bending with the wind, rather than monoliths of concrete, which refuse to budge....
@Federica, I think the middle way is to try to sort out if you get puffed full of yourself when you point out a wrong view$, like you think you are some emissary of rightness. The problem is the ego and not being right.
from $ above: there are some vows related to what you are expressing.
1 Not respecting more experienced people
2 Not answering questions
3 Not teaching dharma to those who want it
4 Not overpowering those on a perverted path
Perhaps I have missed the point @Jeffrey - are you implying that we should always feel like we are humble subjects?
No @anataman we can think whatever we want; there are no rules to thought in the vajrayana. It is just if you practice with the idea of self-improving it is like poison.
There is a reason this is in advanced teachings.
I* n my observation the slogan means a number of things. I think it's fine to become motivated to practice. But that is a subtle poison simply because the 2nd noble truth says craving produces dukkha. In my practice I suffer a LOT because I want to have more blissful meditations and I want to feel good like my head soothed and my defensiveness pacified. Another thing is that not getting egoic about progress helps you to be more 'other' centric and compassionate.
Yes, thank you for the clarification @Jeffrey, I get what you are saying now, and agree with you - what is harder than a diamond? When you a are one, what more can you be...
@Jeffrey In a way related, is Don't Ponder Others. That is one I am constantly working with. I don't have my Training the Mind book on me (it's on my kindle and one of my kids is using it, lol) Online it says:
It points to how easy, entertaining, and totally distracting it can be to muse about what is wrong with everybody else. The habit of faultfinding is part of a larger pattern of insecurity in which we always feel the need to compare ourselves to other people. It is as though we need to convince ourselves that we are okay, which we can only do indirectly, in comparison to people who are less okay.
Also, Don't Talk About Injured Limbs: simply means not to make fun of others or draw attention to their defects and problems. Rather than dwelling on what is wrong with people, which only exaggerates and perpetuates their weaknesses, we should remember that they are doing the best they can. We should accept them as they are. This slogan does not imply that you should not notice the problems or deformities people have, or that you should pretend everything is okay. It does not mean you should simply vague out or not be interested in what is going on around you. The point is to examine how you react to such things.
I keep copied of both in my purse and look at them daily, lol.
Cool, karasti. I just finished Training the Mind and am going to review by doing a slogan every day before meditation. Then I will read Pema Chodrons book about lojong.
I have been working with Training the Mind and Enlightened Courage (which is Dilgo Khyentse's book on lojong) as I work on slogans. They are so direct and immediate, and I definitely find that they pop in my head as I run into situations that I can apply them to I find them quite helpful, I wish I had known about them sooner. My teacher decided to spend his 6 months in MN this year doing Lojong training.
An except from Jon Kabot-Zinn's book -Wherever you go ,There you are- sounds pertinent to the conversation.
Whenever you find yourself thinking you are getting somewhere or that you're not getting where
you are supposed to be, it can be helpful to ask yourself things like: "Where am I supposed to get?";
"Who is supposed to get somewhere?"; "Why are some mind states less valid to observe and accept as
being present than others?"; "Am I inviting mindfulness into each moment, or indulging in mindless
repetition of the forms of meditation practice, mistaking the form for the essence of it?"; "Am I using
meditation as a technique?"
These questions can help you cut through those moments when self-involved feeling states, mindless
habits, and strong emotions dominate your practice. They can quickly bring you back to the freshness
and beauty of each moment as it is. Perhaps you forgot or didn't quite grasp that meditation really is the
one human activity in which you are not trying to get anywhere else but simply allowing yourself to be
where and as you already are. This is a bitter medicine to swallow when you don't like what is
happening or where you find yourself, but it is especially worth swallowing at such times
Vows eh?
Everyone has Buddha Nature, what is not to respect?
Not answering . . . is not 'Noble Silence' an answer?
Everybody knows what they want and need? No ignorance exists?
With great power comes great responsibility (Bodhi Spidey)
_. . . and now back to the vow breaking . . ._
:crazy: -
@Jeffrey: as an aside, I've been working a slogan a day with CT's "Training the Mind." I like to complement it with Pema Chödrön's "Start where you are," and you might find Thupten Jinpa's version also very good.
That said, on your first answer to @federica's comment, I personally don't think there is always an ego/being right issue involved when pointing out a wrong view to someone else. We are all entitled to different points of view, since we have all walked different paths in life. But precisely because of that, you can provide that person with a different insight into their situation and perhaps help them see a side to the story that they have been missing. In that case, there's no willingness on your part to be right or be a smartass. You have that person's best interest at heart. If the person refuses your point of view, then it's okay to leave it at that because the original intention was to help that person, not being right (who could say you were right anyway?)
As to your second comment, well the more we tread, the more we learn. You must feel more certain in your practice than you did two years ago. There is per force an intention of self-development, though not "self" in a negative connotation.
I practice because I want to be a better person, enjoy life, stare dukkha in the face when it happens, and be instrumental in leaving the world a better place. If you feel good, others feel good too. You don't get attached to the positive side effects of meditation, nor attach any expectations to your practice. But by working on yourself, which in the end is the only person you can aspire to change, you are influencing your environment and the people around you in a positive, even if subtle way.
In my opinion, whatever good you do for yourself, you do for others, too, and I don't feel there's negative ego stuff in this process.
Of course, I don't feel I have to pat myself on the back, either. Just keep ploughing ahead. It never ends.
I am not commenting the slogan, just these two comments you made, which I found interesting.
One does need to be careful about what they deem is "right" or "wrong" in order to talk to others, though. Even when you think you have a right intention. Fred Phelps thought he had good intentions, too. If someone wants your advice, insight, or opinion, that is one thing. But just because you think they are doing it wrong (whatever it might be) doesn't necessarily mean it is up to you to jump in and point it out.
My mom used to have a horrible habit of this. She has gotten better, but even though I am almost 40, she would question my decisions. She would point out all the other ways to do things, as if I wouldn't have considered them already. It was very down-putting to me and I had a hard time with it even though her intentions were good. What it amounted to was she thought she had some inherent right to request I explain my decisions so that she could understand them. Really it was about "well, I would have made a different choice, so you owe it to me to explain why you didn't make the choice I would." And even though she consistently came to me by saying "I am only saying this because I care" it wasn't skillful whatsoever, and it was just an issue of her right way versus my wrong way. People seem to think they have an inherent right to understand someone else, and thus make them explain. I do it, too, but I am trying to be more aware of it now that I know how it impacted me. This type of pointing out "right" to people happens much more often than true, real issues that need to be pointed out, such as if someone is bullying someone else and you need to step in to say "Knock it off, that is not ok."
I referred to @federica's comment and Jeffrey's answer to it.
I don't uphold the view of pointing out a mistake unheeded or outside the context of an exchange of opinions.
My mother does that all the time too, BTW. I am 43 and my brother is 45, so imagine...
And I'm 57. You think it ever stops....?! Think again!
@dharmamom
Sure but nonetheless if you are practicing meditation and fantasizing about what you will become then you are if nothing else distracting yourself and daydreaming. We definitely should have goals. The trick is not to involve the ego in goals. You can see what samsara is. It is trying to harvest the eight worldly winds: pleasure and not pain, gain and not loss, praise and not blame, and fame and not infamy. But yes it's very important to clarify our wishes. Buddhism is tricky because often there are teachings that contradict. We abandon poison of the ego but we still have a heart wishing it is free from suffering.
The trick @jeffrey is to see the trick, and then if you want to be tricked, laugh at your own amazement at being tricked - it's something else; if you don't then just shatter the illusion, and laugh at how easy it was to be fooled.
Pssst, Did you know that there's a little gem about to be revealed in the world - it's called.., no I cannot reveal it, but keep your wits about you!, lettuce know when you see it.
Wheres that damn button, the LAYS button - It should be shaped like a mushroom. you know the one. which is Red with White spots on it, and is normally associated with a guy called Mario and his bro. Luigi...
... \ lol / ...
that's why I never got really involved in (E-)Buddhism
In the context of this thread we are discussing the ability to discern. A quite valuable attainment, very different from judgement.
Those whose stages we have experienced are transparent to us. I remember meeting a very nondescript person at a retreat, who was veiled from me. In other words he was acting from a mindfulness or state that at the time was beyond my experience [shrugs]. Onward and upward. Sideways and inward.
Your Lama does discern and have the experience to know what is required.
Perhaps what is most disconcerting is how our understanding changes, arrival is a relative state next to nowhere . . .
I want to point out something in BOLD.
Just because your meditation has some component of ego is no reason to stop meditating But you can't ignore it when there is an egoic view in your practice and it is good to contemplate. Just keep meditating and at some point the egoic view will just be consumed by the pressure of your own suffering as fire consumes a log. Don't worry about the egoic view. Notice it as a thought. Any particular thought only has the power that you give to it.
^^ @MeisterBob has posted a pertinent quote relevant to mistaken views of ego as attainment. Ego has no attainment. Ego is nothing. Ego has nothing. Ego is empty. It is why the sense of [insert understanding] is irrelevant and merely the expression or 'glitter' of the precious jewel, vajra mind, Rigpa, Buddha Nature, Pureland, Far Shore - however your tradition alludes to it.
We find rest, peace, cessation of suffering in the emptiness, not in the 'thus do I know'.
As a Gnostic Buddhist, I know Nothing.
Here is my cushion in his best hat:
Ego in any shape or form is likely to cause pain for oneself and/or others.
"Don't be an arahant, don't be a bodhisattva, don't be anything at all—if you are anything at all you will suffer.” —Ajahn Chah
If you define ego as "sense of self" then try getting along without it. As an embodied being I need this "sense of self" to go about life in the relatively real world of moral, ethical ,legal and physical distinctions. I may suffer for this view but I do live in the relatively real world. To me "burning the ego at the stake" is kind of like turning an issue into a problem and then having a problem....you make a problem -you have a problem! lol! Bob
Not always so.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=Od51U4fJENSS7AbEiYCIBA&url=http://integral-options.blogspot.com/2010/03/thanissaro-bhikkhu-hang-on-to-your-ego.html?m=1&cd=2&ved=0CC8QFjAB&usg=AFQjCNH7lV0Jp0grsRLHRGHexn5dvUKSAg&sig2=gq9qmWT-tPO8tO2Xb-Nvhg
Interesting read and more in line with my understanding. Developing a "healthy sense of self" (ego) make the most "sense" to me! Bob
@MeisterBob,
Buddhism does not use ego like psychology. You do have a sense of self, but it is just a way of living in the world. There is actually no word for ego in Tibetan and it is just a word used for skillful means.
There is no single word for 'ego' in Pali or Sanskrit either.
Its a very western construct.
Imagine how different your view of Buddhism is if you have no concept of 'ego' to start with.
And instead you have a conceptual vocabulary that sees people including yourself as verbs, actions, rather than nouns.
To see yourself having an ego which has to be fought against, or dismantled, is like trying to find the cure for a non-existent disease.
Action can be skillful or unskillful. But it does not proceed from ' an ego.'
Thanks. That is why I find it important to define the word ego simply as a sense of self.
And there's the rub @MeisterBob.
It seems to me that using the word ego does not shed any light on Buddhadharma.
That is my mistake perhaps. I'm am not Buddhist but I do share many of the ideas that buddhists use. Again its mostly semantics and or misinterpretation I imagine that become disagreement. . Bob
Not a mistake Bob..We are most of us having to unlearn stuff...
' Ego 'as a concept has a useful function as a convenient shorthand..
Its just that if you try to find it its like trying to find your fist after you open your hand...
No.... You only THINK you're not Buddhist..... Wink.....
Yes. Language, as a rule, reflects cultural outlook. The Inuit, for instance, have 200 different words for "snow". In Tibetan, the word we translate into "meditation" means "to become familiar with". The word we translate into "suffering" has a number of different meanings, depending on context.
The thing is, the cultures we get our dharma language from, have had centuries to develop dharma-specific language. We've had what, exactly? They take an idea like a wagon wheel being slightly out-of-round and distill that to a single word, "dhukka". They then apply that to the 4NT. We fight for a single word that truly encapsulates what the Buddha taught in the First Noble Truth.
We haven't had enough time to really solve that problem.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this is one of those situations where a teacher is helpfull. Not just someone with expertise in the root languages, but someone who can translate that into not only our language, but our situation, our context as well.
Yes. ...words are easy to misconstrue.
My Zafu says that the ego is our habituated manipulation of all arising, living and departing phenomena.
Playing with words like healthy, positive or good when referring to the Ego, is trying to dress up a heavy load when all that's called to do is to stop carrying it.
Within the dream of self and other, a remodeling of the ego is simply a make over of identities attachment to itself. To awaken from that dream is to see that the ego itself was the only obscuration of the path towards sufferings cessation.
Prettying up a dream has little to do with waking up.
No, actually, they don't. They have various words to describe snow, like fluffy, dense, light,...just as we say drizzle, downpour, cats and dogs.... For rain.
But these snow words only amount to around 20. Certainly nowhere near 200.
When it snows in May, like it has here this year, I have about 200 words for snow. But most of them aren't very nice.
Well......
I was taught, in college, in an anthropology class, that it was 200.
But whatever.
They still have more words for one thing, snow, than we do.
Snow is important to them, and they develop specific words for specific things. it's easier and more effective to have one word that to say "crusty snow in late spring" or something like that.
I agree. Just as it's more long-winded saying "annoying light sparse fall of small raindrops which are too damn close to mist" instead of 'drizzle'....
I remember as a kid there were various types of snow for building snow forts. Sometimes packing snow where we would roll giant snowballs. Another type the top of the snow had hardened a little and we could cut bricks with our mittens and stack them.
So that's two types of snow.
PS DONT eat yellow snow
Maybe. Then again you maybe in a computer simulation- part of someone else's conjured dream and never know it..... I may never awake from the dream of self but Im not aspiring to either.
MeisterBob
Hhmmm...What colored pill are you offering?
You could say that we all practice whether dream bound or not. That waking up is simply seeing truth unobscured by our own ignorance. Waking up from anothers dream or your own involves the same truth which leads towards suffering cessation.
Can't remember the color...red...blue?...Just thought it would be ironic...Anyhow I may have to live with just easing the pain though I have been heading_ toward _suffering's cessation a long time...
Anyhow it's not the destination that's important is it? Bob
So what if we are a computer simulation? A rose by any other name would be just as sweet. Life is what it is. Call it a computer simulation and it doesn't change the raw experience.
sweet. Life is what it is. Call it a computer simulation and it doesn't change the raw experience.
As mentioned I thought it was sort of ironic. Anyhow I intellectually get the "no self" thing but I'm just not on board with it ,so to speak. Its more than I need to not know. Living in the relatively real world my wife,kids and friends would miss me. lol! ....I try to move in the right direction, day at a time,best I can. Thats good enough for me, myself and I. ;* )
If we were It wouldn't matter, because we all need is a good reboot now and then; so when the hard drive goes, it can just be replaced - that's what Amazon and ebay are for.
Maybe rebirth really should be called 'reboot' ::D:
Where is my anti-dukkha software?
My mistake you said Dukkha not do-do! Bob
It is so. This healthy sense of "self" is very useful but is also to be abandoned in the later stages.
"'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html