Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Did the Buddha tell a Lie in this sutta?
Victorious
Grim Veteran
Someone just brought this sutta to my attention during another disc.
Am I reading this wrong or is the Buddha telling a deliberate Lie here in his promise of 500 nymphs to Nanda?
"Then take joy, Nanda. Take joy! I am your guarantor for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs."
"If the Blessed One is my guarantor for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs, I will enjoy leading the holy life under the Blessed One."
read the rest here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.3.02.than.html#fn-1
/Victor
0
Comments
... :shrug shoulders in a 'I don't know' kinda way: ...
What would Nanda have received if he'd taken those guaranteed 500 dove-footed nymphs?
No. He was demonstrating that Nanda, whichever choice he made, was making it for the wrong reasons.
Nanda realised this when he saw that the other monks were treating him with no respect; his devotion and motivation had a carnal agenda.
So he went into seclusion, and (if you will) came to his senses.
Next time I will endeavour to read the link and come to my senses, rather than just read the question - however, for my own sanity I must assume there will always be less than 500 words for me to survive the ordeal
If he did lie....... would he be on the dark side of Buddhism?
I think if the Buddha believed in heaven realms where such things were possible then he wouldn't be lying.
Was he telling a lie when he described the universe with Mount Meru at its center? Or was he turning something inexpressible to ancient people and presenting it in a metaphorical way that they could comprehend?
It seems there are many angles to look at each statement, its hard for us sitting here 2,500 years later to make any definitive judgments.
...or would be worthy of @Victorious' devotion?
I'd say not. He'd have to become a Methodist.
@Victorious - he lied, dude. On purpose and out loud. ;-)
It just goes to show, context is everything!
Then the monks who were companions of Ven. Nanda went around addressing him as they would a hired hand & a person who had been bought: "Venerable Nanda, they say, has been hired. Venerable Nanda, they say, has been bought.[1] He's leading the holy life for the sake of nymphs. The Blessed One is his guarantor for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs."
Then Ven. Nanda — humiliated, ashamed, & disgusted that the monks who were his companions were addressing him as they would a hired hand & a person who had been bought — went to dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute. He in no long time entered & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself right in the here-&-now. He knew, "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Nanda became another one of the arahants.
We gets nymphs? :buck: All I got is this lousy cushion . . .
I once heard from a Vietnamese monk that he had dreams/visions of beautiful nymphs during his near death experience. He described them as far more beautiful than any human female.
For some reason he rejected them and decided his work is not yet done. He came back to tell the tale.
Was he lying? I don't think so. Was it real? To him, it was.
^^^ He rejected nymphs and came back from an NDE. Sounds positively Buddhist . . . Shakyamuni would be 'proud' . . . :clap: . . .
I think I must clarify the question a bit. Even though I think most of you have got it right.
The question is not about there being nymphs or not but the actual promise that Nanda would be guaranteed this reward in heaven if he followed the Buddha/Dhamma.
That Nanda came to his senses along the way or that it ended well does not in my opinion change the words or intent the Buddha had at the cited instant.
I think the answer lies in what @person said. Thanks person. in the DN the Buddha teaches the path to union with the Brahma. So I guess following the Dhamma might actually push you in that general (heavenly) direction.
That he also realised that Nanda might come to his senses and instead reach nibbana might also have been on his mind.
But all in all it was not a lie. Sorry @Chaz. But you did understand the brunt of my question though.
Thanks guys. I feel satisfied.
Any more pros and cons are welcome though.
/Victor
PS
Of course there are nymphs in heaven. What good would a heaven be without them and where would all the good women go after death otherwise? :thumbsup:
DS
>
The point is, he COULD have had these nymphs, once Enlightened, if he had wanted them; but once Enlightened, that desire would have evaporated.
However, Nanda's motivation was demonstrably flawed. Hence his retreat: he realised this.
Considering that according to the story, the Buddha did actually take the two of them to the level of Heaven where the nymphs existed, then Buddha was hardly lying. All he did was tell the man, "Hey, you want women? Then stick with me and I'll make sure you get all the women you want in the end. I promise." In this tale, Buddha had the power to do such a thing, obviously. But Nanda discovered that in the end, he didn't want an orgy. Those passions had been extinguished.
It's a morality tale, and a somewhat obvious one at that. "Enlightenment is better than sex."
What this does do is give us a glimpse into the world of the early Buddhist community of monks and show that it's not at all a collection of peaceful, devoted followers filled with love and compassion like the Buddha was supposed to be. They made fun of Nanda and sneered at him and nowhere in the story are they rebuked for acting this way. According to the story, Nanda deserved to be bullied by the other monks.
Also, it was pointed out that what bothered Nanda was being treated like "someone they had hired or bought (a slave). So the monks were used to treating the help with open disdain. It was all about respect and their standing in the group.
Not very enlightened behavior on display by anyone, is it? And according to the records, a significant portion of Buddha's followers had already reached enlightenment and become Arahants in their own right. The one defining characteristic the sutras have for these Arahants in the old stories is an ego the size of a mountain. They squabbled over issues such as should women be allowed into the group, and jealously guarded their elevated status.
Which just goes to show that where you have an exclusively - male orientated environment, primary concerns seem to be with sex and aggression.
Maybe another reason so much oppression and resistance existed - and still exists - against the ordination and inclusion of women in the sangha; because men can't get over their sexual angle.
And no, I'm not flaming, nor off-topic: for example, does such a Heavenly realm exist, in view of women who seek enlightenment? Is there an "Adonis-like" entity too...?
Or is the origin of this Sutta mired more in the deluded minds of those carrying on the teachings, post-Buddha existence, or is this an authenticated teaching from the Buddha himself?
No, it's impossible for a Buddha to lie.
You know, up till now it never dawned on me that those beliefs in a Heaven where the nymphs or virgins or whatever are eagerly awaiting a man to get it on never include one filled with hunky men waiting for a woman.
Then again, we might be looking in the wrong direction. That particular realm might be down there in the Hell region for the woman. "Oh, dear. So this is the afterlife. What are those naked guys over there doing? They're heading my way? Help!"
My desire seems to be evaporating. Maybe I'm enlightened!
That's great, because I was blaming it on the heart disease.
Sometimes a teaching is just a teaching and what someone needs to hear is not always the most direct route to truth.
Wonder who wrote the Sutta. it was written when Buddha was alive, I am sure. A writer can put words into many a mouth and it is up to us to sieve through the pile of information and use our rational mind to accept whatever that has been written. Didn't Buddha say to come and investigate?
Isn't that exactly what @Victorious is doing?
Yepp. Thanks.
If you're referring to the Kalama Sutra he said to apply 4 very specifc guidlines:
If what you are taught is ...
Skillfull,
Blameless,
Praised by the wise and,
Leads to Welfare/Happiness
Then you abide in that.
It's more evaluation than it is investigation.
Well put @Chaz
Well, there has to BE a certain amount of investigation, in order to be able to evaluate with Wisdom. Else we all risk becoming either Yes-Men or Anarchists...
Well, just sayin ....
That is what the Buddha taught.
Yes, I know. But I am equally certain he intended people to think carefully before deciding on the next step....
Ok, but how?
You have to figure out if something is skillfull, blameless, and so on. You do have to figure that out.
He even included instruction on what not to do:
Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.'What else do you need to do, and where is the Buddha's instruction on that?
Well, this is from the narrative of the tranotation on 'accesstoinsight'....
>
So I figured, really, that it pretty much explained evaluation and examination
Svakkhato Bhagavata Dhammo, Sanditthiko, Akaliko, Ehipassiko, Opanayiko, Paccattam Veditabbo Vinnuhiti -
Svakkhato Bhagavata Dhammo - Clearly expounded is the Dhamma,
Sanditthiko- When lived by its effects are seen right away.
Akaliko - timeless is its results.
Ehipassiko - open for scrutiny
Opanayiko - It leads only to happiness
Paccattam Veditabbo Vinnuhiti - To be realised for oneself.
This is how the Dhamma should be evaluated/investigated. By personal experience
IMO it is very clear what the sutta means. It is not by intellectual pursuit but by getting your hands dirty that you verify the Dhamma.
/Victor