Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Buddhism & Bigotry ...Are some sects of Buddhism more tolerant than others ?
His worst crime in my book is that he , Master Hsuan Hua, claims to speak for Buddhism.
He doesn't say " My opinion is that homosexuals ( or meat eaters ) are a scourge and are going to hell "
Which is debatable, but is his view...He instead says that the BUDDHA says that.
As was mentioned earlier, HHDL had some things to say about homosexuality that wasn't exactly complimentary.
It was, as far as I know, in keeping with Buddhist scripture.
freedom of speech.
I group of American students traveled to Dharamsala for an audience with HH for clarification. You don't ask HH for a retraction. Shortly after, HH backpedaled a bit.
@federica said:
Never seen or heard any sign of it, anywhere, either IRL or on,any forum I have visited.
incidentally, although some teachings of some schools in the Mahayana Tradition are quite specific with regard to the 3rd Precept being violated, by homosexuality, the Theravada Tradition, as far as I am hitherto aware, does not condemn, reject or even advise against homosexuality for either gender. It merely counsels against inappropriate or unskillful sexual conduct.
What that is, is up to you, but broadly speaking, it is any sexual conduct that abuses the will, dignity and volition of any person involved. In other words, when you - or they - would rather not.
According to Theravada, unskillful sex involved being intimate with a minor, an ordained person, an incarcerated person, a betrothed (to someone else) person.
This article by our very own Jason, explains it well.
@federica said "_And sometimes, the historically oppressed don't actually help their own 'cause'... what is it with 'African American'...? "
If your interested....
See the African American Wiki page...scroll down 'till you get to the 'Terminology, political overtones' part. That pretty much sums it up.
It was used for the cause.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
'Was' being the operative word.
I personally think it's superfluous now, and a very good American friend of mine - who is second-generation Trinidadian - gets mightily pissed off when other Americans refer to him as 'African-American'.
He retorts that obviously, the speaker is too insular to know that there are OTHER countries whose indigenous population is black.... His words, not mine....
I think this guy sums it all up.....(Wikipeda Buddhism & Homosexuality)
Venerable Hsing Yun, one of the premier figures in contemporary Chinese Buddhism, has stated that Buddhism should never teach intolerance toward homosexuality, and that people should expand their minds.[63]
Marriage is an institution that reflects the values of the society that supports it. If the people of a society no longer believe that it is important to be married, then there is no reason why they cannot change the institution of marriage. Marriage is a custom. Customs can always be changed. We can find the same core point in this question as we have in others — the ultimate truth of the matter is that individuals can and should decide for themselves what is right. As long as they are not violating others or breaking the laws of the society in which they are living, then they are free to do what they believe is right. It is not for me or anyone else to tell them that they must get married if they want to live together. That is their choice and their choice alone.
The same analysis can be applied to homosexuality. People often ask me what I think about homosexuality. They wonder, is it right, is it wrong? The answer is, it is neither right nor wrong. It is just something that people do. If people are not harming each other, their private lives are their own business; we should be tolerant of them and not reject them.
However, it will still take some time for the world to fully accept homosexuality. All of us must learn to tolerate the behavior of others. Just as we hope to expand our minds to include all of the universe, so we should also seek to expand our minds to include all of the many forms of human behavior. Tolerance is a form of generosity and it is a form of wisdom. There is nothing anywhere in the Dharma that should ever lead anyone to become intolerant. Our goal as Buddhists is to learn to accept all kinds of people and to help all kinds of people discover the wisdom of the teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha.
—Hsing Yun, Buddhism Pure and Simple, pp. 137–138
The 'was' indicated how it got started. The continuation of it is another ball of wax.
Yes, I agree with him. Alot of Americans have trouble telling nationalities/races apart. The If your Vietnamese, your likely to get called Chinese, Japanese, everything. Black folks that are dark are assummed to be African immigrants, and some White folks from Africa are assumed to be from everywhere but there.
I chalk it up to our education system and lack of exposure.
Sorta reminds me of a meeting I had with a team of teachers and a Black parent. The meeting was going okay, and at one point a teacher said something about African-American. I just sat back and waited for what I knew was coming, because I knew the family. The mother chewed out the teacher something awful, telling the teacher(s) that they were citizens of Kenya here on a diplomatic passport, and that she was tired of being referred to as African-American. And then the coup d'grace -- "That shows that you don't know my child!"
^^^ True... First generation here or temp Africans do not want to be called African American. The second generation African here , born or citizenship, seem to prefer American. They feel part of...not forced into.
I'm only speaking/generalizing in my family/friends circle. IMO, it will be changing over the next couple of generations. ...As more blending occurs.
My children ( 3rd gen) and their cousins, say American, but they are extremely in touch with their African culture/roots.
Female master/ monks of all different sexual backgrounds/
I heard from one transgendered practitioner in the UK who blamed the reason he/she was eventually asked to leave was because of the gender confusion. The abbot of that temple said that while he did not handle the situation well, the reasons for asking that practioner to leave was for different reasons.
There was some other weird warning I once read about not ordaining hermaphrodites without much of an explanation beyond not knowing where to place them in a male/ female monastic framework
** People are people..but I think that a sincere meditation practice that is incorporated into daily life is the most direct route towards addressing anyones prejudices of anything.**
Kia Ora,
True....And as the saying goes "Form is Emptiness-Emptiness is Form"
@Citta said:
His worst crime in my book is that he , Master Hsuan Hua, claims to speak for Buddhism.
He instead says that the BUDDHA says that.
And he simply did not.
Debatable, depending on whether or not one takes the words of the Surangama Sutra to be the words of the Buddha. The traditional Chinese Chan view is that they are.
To say that Hsuan Hua teaches only his own person opinions, that have no basis in scripture, is to understate things considerably. The Theravada and non Chinese Mahayana don't matter. He was a traditional Chinese Chan teacher. What he says is not controversial according to traditional chan as was practiced in China.
Even within Chinese Buddhism its authenticity was being questioned in the 8th century.
Yes, by perhaps two or three people out of the whole country.
I just observed the ordination of a friend of mine who is gay in the Theravada tradition under Bhante G.. Bhante G has also ordained Bhikkhunis in the past.
You mean apart from the fact that 100% of the Theravada and 80% of the Mahayana see it as a eighth century fake @Jeffrey ?
And that the vast majority of scholars agree with them ?
Oh and the fact that it puts words into the Buddha's mouth that are not found in any other source, about hellfire and damnation for those who have sex and those who eat meat ?
Presumably to have a lie in with the missus before a bacon and egg breakfast guarantees a double portion of Dantes Inferno.
The thread is titled " Buddhism And Bigotry Are Some Sects More Tolerant Than Others ? "
The answer is YES. And their non adoption of fake Sutras is one reason for that.
2
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
Now it seems as if we condemn even things in the privacy of one's own mind.
There is no privacy of one's own mind if others are aware of the discriminatory or hateful views. If something remains in one's own mind, be it hateful or judgmental, as long as it is not acted upon or openly stated, who would even know? Easy; by disclosing this attitude to others. Is that in itself is an act of discrimination or 'hate' (kind of a strong word for it, but still)? Apparently so.
The twin brothers who just lost their HGTV series AND their investment back up did not act out on their Christian religious opinions about homosexuality, they merely said they held these opinions as the truth. That was enough to receive consequences, apparently. It illustrates my point perhaps, that stating you have a discriminatory view is considered in popular culture as an act of 'hate' all on it's own.
I was at the CTTB in Talmage,CA twice. As a volunteer teacher in the boys school. What I heard about sexuality while there was the unhappy fate that befell monks and nuns who violated their vows. Very graphic.
As part of my job I and the other teachers were required to instill Confucian values using teaching tools published in Taiwan. Amongst the other teachers I never heard any anti homosexual sentiments expressed.
But I have no doubt that owing to a rather puritanical atmosphere keep alive by some factions at CTTB that very ugly opinions were expressed.
Finally Chinese Buddhism such as I have experienced it tends to be an amalgam of the Tao,Confucianism and Buddhism. Don't look for anything else.
@Citta said:
To say that the Surangama Sutra is problematic is to understate things considerably.
The Theravada does not accept its validity at all.
Neither does most of the non Chinese Mahayana.
Even within Chinese Buddhism its authenticity was being questioned in the 8th century.
A very dear acquaintance of mine, a Chinese Singaporean girl, offered me a wooden hulu pendant with a miniature copy of the Surangama Sutra.
She practises feng shui and follows a certain Buddhist local Chinese master.
When you discuss with her, she sounds sort of brainwashed. Her views are definitely bigoted. I never feel at ease around her because I can never tell when a comment of mine (especially too open-minded a comment) will come off as offensive according to her strict standards.
She swears by the Surangama Sutra. She has sent me links of her master singing praises in his lectures to this mantra.
Never actually found the time to read it completely, though Dwight Goddard found it relevant enough to include it in his 1938 edition of "A Buddhist Bible."
(Not that Dwight Goddard's judgement counts much, for he also included Lao Tse's Tao Te King in this bible, which by no means could be called Buddhist bibliography)
I used to think that brain washing was oK if the brain at least came out cleaner. Problem is, that most brains that acquiesce to such treatment are left only seeing everything in terms of the washed and unwashed. They might have a uniformity of view but it appears to simply be delusion in a new suit.
Comments
True.
What else do we have to go on?
Cool.
His worst crime in my book is that he , Master Hsuan Hua, claims to speak for Buddhism.
He doesn't say " My opinion is that homosexuals ( or meat eaters ) are a scourge and are going to hell "
Which is debatable, but is his view...He instead says that the BUDDHA says that.
And he simply did not.
As was mentioned earlier, HHDL had some things to say about homosexuality that wasn't exactly complimentary.
It was, as far as I know, in keeping with Buddhist scripture.
freedom of speech.
I group of American students traveled to Dharamsala for an audience with HH for clarification. You don't ask HH for a retraction. Shortly after, HH backpedaled a bit.
Also someone living under care of their parents.
@federica said "_And sometimes, the historically oppressed don't actually help their own 'cause'... what is it with 'African American'...? "
If your interested....
See the African American Wiki page...scroll down 'till you get to the 'Terminology, political overtones' part. That pretty much sums it up.
It was used for the cause.
'Was' being the operative word.
I personally think it's superfluous now, and a very good American friend of mine - who is second-generation Trinidadian - gets mightily pissed off when other Americans refer to him as 'African-American'.
He retorts that obviously, the speaker is too insular to know that there are OTHER countries whose indigenous population is black.... His words, not mine....
Kia Ora,
I think this guy sums it all up.....(Wikipeda Buddhism & Homosexuality)
Venerable Hsing Yun, one of the premier figures in contemporary Chinese Buddhism, has stated that Buddhism should never teach intolerance toward homosexuality, and that people should expand their minds.[63]
Marriage is an institution that reflects the values of the society that supports it. If the people of a society no longer believe that it is important to be married, then there is no reason why they cannot change the institution of marriage. Marriage is a custom. Customs can always be changed. We can find the same core point in this question as we have in others — the ultimate truth of the matter is that individuals can and should decide for themselves what is right. As long as they are not violating others or breaking the laws of the society in which they are living, then they are free to do what they believe is right. It is not for me or anyone else to tell them that they must get married if they want to live together. That is their choice and their choice alone.
The same analysis can be applied to homosexuality. People often ask me what I think about homosexuality. They wonder, is it right, is it wrong? The answer is, it is neither right nor wrong. It is just something that people do. If people are not harming each other, their private lives are their own business; we should be tolerant of them and not reject them.
However, it will still take some time for the world to fully accept homosexuality. All of us must learn to tolerate the behavior of others. Just as we hope to expand our minds to include all of the universe, so we should also seek to expand our minds to include all of the many forms of human behavior.
Tolerance is a form of generosity and it is a form of wisdom. There is nothing anywhere in the Dharma that should ever lead anyone to become intolerant. Our goal as Buddhists is to learn to accept all kinds of people and to help all kinds of people discover the wisdom of the teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha.
—Hsing Yun, Buddhism Pure and Simple, pp. 137–138
Metta Shoshin
The 'was' indicated how it got started. The continuation of it is another ball of wax.
Yes, I agree with him. Alot of Americans have trouble telling nationalities/races apart. The If your Vietnamese, your likely to get called Chinese, Japanese, everything. Black folks that are dark are assummed to be African immigrants, and some White folks from Africa are assumed to be from everywhere but there.
I chalk it up to our education system and lack of exposure.
Sorta reminds me of a meeting I had with a team of teachers and a Black parent. The meeting was going okay, and at one point a teacher said something about African-American. I just sat back and waited for what I knew was coming, because I knew the family. The mother chewed out the teacher something awful, telling the teacher(s) that they were citizens of Kenya here on a diplomatic passport, and that she was tired of being referred to as African-American. And then the coup d'grace -- "That shows that you don't know my child!"
I loved it.
^^^ True... First generation here or temp Africans do not want to be called African American. The second generation African here , born or citizenship, seem to prefer American. They feel part of...not forced into.
I'm only speaking/generalizing in my family/friends circle. IMO, it will be changing over the next couple of generations. ...As more blending occurs.
My children ( 3rd gen) and their cousins, say American, but they are extremely in touch with their African culture/roots.
As always...
MMV
Kia Ora,
True....And as the saying goes "Form is Emptiness-Emptiness is Form"
Metta Shoshin
He instead says that the BUDDHA says that.
Debatable, depending on whether or not one takes the words of the Surangama Sutra to be the words of the Buddha. The traditional Chinese Chan view is that they are.
To say that the Surangama Sutra is problematic is to understate things considerably.
The Theravada does not accept its validity at all.
Neither does most of the non Chinese Mahayana.
Even within Chinese Buddhism its authenticity was being questioned in the 8th century.
To say that Hsuan Hua teaches only his own person opinions, that have no basis in scripture, is to understate things considerably. The Theravada and non Chinese Mahayana don't matter. He was a traditional Chinese Chan teacher. What he says is not controversial according to traditional chan as was practiced in China.
Yes, by perhaps two or three people out of the whole country.
I just observed the ordination of a friend of mine who is gay in the Theravada tradition under Bhante G.. Bhante G has also ordained Bhikkhunis in the past.
I've read some of that sutra and it was very interesting to read. What is the matter with it, @Citta?
You mean apart from the fact that 100% of the Theravada and 80% of the Mahayana see it as a eighth century fake @Jeffrey ?
And that the vast majority of scholars agree with them ?
Oh and the fact that it puts words into the Buddha's mouth that are not found in any other source, about hellfire and damnation for those who have sex and those who eat meat ?
Presumably to have a lie in with the missus before a bacon and egg breakfast guarantees a double portion of Dantes Inferno.
The thread is titled " Buddhism And Bigotry Are Some Sects More Tolerant Than Others ? "
The answer is YES. And their non adoption of fake Sutras is one reason for that.
@vinlyn said:
There is no privacy of one's own mind if others are aware of the discriminatory or hateful views. If something remains in one's own mind, be it hateful or judgmental, as long as it is not acted upon or openly stated, who would even know? Easy; by disclosing this attitude to others. Is that in itself is an act of discrimination or 'hate' (kind of a strong word for it, but still)? Apparently so.
The twin brothers who just lost their HGTV series AND their investment back up did not act out on their Christian religious opinions about homosexuality, they merely said they held these opinions as the truth. That was enough to receive consequences, apparently. It illustrates my point perhaps, that stating you have a discriminatory view is considered in popular culture as an act of 'hate' all on it's own.
I was at the CTTB in Talmage,CA twice. As a volunteer teacher in the boys school. What I heard about sexuality while there was the unhappy fate that befell monks and nuns who violated their vows. Very graphic.
As part of my job I and the other teachers were required to instill Confucian values using teaching tools published in Taiwan. Amongst the other teachers I never heard any anti homosexual sentiments expressed.
But I have no doubt that owing to a rather puritanical atmosphere keep alive by some factions at CTTB that very ugly opinions were expressed.
Finally Chinese Buddhism such as I have experienced it tends to be an amalgam of the Tao,Confucianism and Buddhism. Don't look for anything else.
Kia Ora,
I came across this analogy quite a few years ago...(It sounds like something the Buddha would say)
“The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract.”
Oliver Wendell Holmes,
Metta Shoshin
A very dear acquaintance of mine, a Chinese Singaporean girl, offered me a wooden hulu pendant with a miniature copy of the Surangama Sutra.
She practises feng shui and follows a certain Buddhist local Chinese master.
When you discuss with her, she sounds sort of brainwashed. Her views are definitely bigoted. I never feel at ease around her because I can never tell when a comment of mine (especially too open-minded a comment) will come off as offensive according to her strict standards.
She swears by the Surangama Sutra. She has sent me links of her master singing praises in his lectures to this mantra.
Never actually found the time to read it completely, though Dwight Goddard found it relevant enough to include it in his 1938 edition of "A Buddhist Bible."
(Not that Dwight Goddard's judgement counts much, for he also included Lao Tse's Tao Te King in this bible, which by no means could be called Buddhist bibliography)
I used to think that brain washing was oK if the brain at least came out cleaner. Problem is, that most brains that acquiesce to such treatment are left only seeing everything in terms of the washed and unwashed. They might have a uniformity of view but it appears to simply be delusion in a new suit.