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Passing on the Dharma to non-Buddhists
Bunks
Australia Veteran
Some time ago, my wife (who is an Athiest) has encouraged me to talk about my practice with her and the family but I am hesitant for two reasons:
I am not very eloquent;
I think that if I get the dharma wrong when speaking of it with my wife and kids I may do more harm than good.
Any thoughts / advice on how to overcome this welcome.....
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Get her a copy of Jon Kabot-Zinn's "Where ever you go There you are" Though it may not be "legit" its got good dharma IMO.
just say you are just studying and not sure what you are saying is correct
@Bunks Just keep it simple. Talk about things that an atheist would agree with, like how all things are impermanent and causally-dependent (and so also without a fundamental self or soul), and how we usually don't act as if this is the case... and that, in short, is why we suffer. It's one thing to understand these things conceptually, and another to really bring yourself into alignment with them. Buddhism is a tool for that purpose.
Remember the Buddha's method of teaching depending on the audience's ability and insight... starting with generosity, to morality, to meditation.
you can focus on how the practice is to be done now in this life, and not worry so much about the metaphysical end of things.
If it helps you about worrying you'll get the dharma wrong, I'll say something which I think is true but I'm not 100%, that Siddhartha Gautama was an atheist.
Maybe at some point he wasn't sometime before he reached his enlightenment, but after that I think he was.
You could pick out a teaching and prepare beforehand. This could be so many things. The four noble truths is one. But make sure to distinguish between NOBLE truths and logical truths. You could explain your meditation method and how it affects you.
Are there no eloquent Buddhists on Youtube that you can say, 'this is what I believe/do and why'? I did this recently.
Thanks everyone......lots of good tips!
If I feel comfortable, I will say "my current understanding is..." but reiterate that my position changes frequently as my practice continues, and that different flavors of Buddhism believe a bit different just like Baptists and Catholics have some differing beliefs. Sometimes I find I don't have the words to explain (or the time, lol) to someone with zero Buddhist background and I just tell them I'm not able, or comfortable enough in my understanding, to explain it at this time.
I take a minute to think about what I'm going to say before I say it, and I try to remain as basic as I can.
I talk more about it with my husband and my kids, and so they have a basic idea already. It just really depends on the person and their level of understanding. Honestly, the hardest one for me is "Well what do Buddhists believe?" because it's such an individual path. It's not really quite like Christianity where you can sum it up into a handful of main points that are fairly easily understood. The second you mention "well, most of the time we believe that there is suffering or unsatisfactoriness in life..." people sometimes get really defensive, so, it's hard to even get that much out. People are pretty adamant that they are not suffering whatsoever!
Kia Ora @Bunks;
I'm not sure how long you have been 'practicing' so..........................
As @Jeffery mentioned, the 4NT & 8FP are good starting points, in fact they're the only starting point, everything else evolves from them...
Or you could do a BodhiDharma and just say: When it comes to Buddhist practice.......
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind-The mind is the root from which all things grow-If you can understand the mind, everything else is included!"
Just go with what you know of the above ie, what through 'experience' you have found to be true/greatly benefited from...
Metta Shoshin
A lot of stigma is associated with Buddhism, especially when you bring up the topic with words people don't understand. Eg. Dharma, Cessation of Suffering, Enlightenment etc.
I would go from a study of reality standpoint. Remember, to tell someone the world is round wont help. You have to show them.
I would start with the very thing that got me to understand Buddhism. Maybe you have your own.
For me it was the realisation that thoughts are not my own, in that they arise out of nothing and then vanish!
We say our hands are ours but our heart beat is something that happens to us? I started to get the point there is something afoot with my reality!
Meditation is a great tool for anybody at the end of the day
Helps with stress!
Hi, @Bunks! I am not partial to sharing my beliefs in a sort of Jehova-witness style.
Now and then, I drop buddhist quotations casually during conversation, and only belabour if my interlocutor shows interest in knowing more.
Other than that, I have been part of a mutlicultural literary group for over ten years, and have often been asked to prepare lectures on Buddhism for a rather big auditorium, so I feel I can give you some tips which have worked for me.
I always try to present Buddhism as a psychological, self-help system. I also try to present the Buddha as a pragmatic man who elluded metaphysical speculation as irrelevant to the cessation of suffering, who was more concerned with how to make our life work for us here and now rather than in an afterlife, removed from our worldly concerns. I also highlight the fact that the Buddha was not a "saviour," rather a man like any of us who came to his conclusions through the use of plain human reasoning, a method available to any of us.
These points work perfectly well both with atheists and religious people alike, because both groups feel that ultimately there might be something for them to glean from the Buddha's teaching without compromising their beliefs.
I concentrate on the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. You can easily branch out to other issues from there. Just make sure to show how this pattern can be easily applied to one's everyday life.
As for children, what has worked like a charm with my seven-year-old son was watching "Little Buddha" together. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Children relate very easily to the film because the plot revolves around a child who is believed to be the reincarnation of a lama. The boy in the film reads a book with the story of Siddharta, and they show the story in a vivid way that impacts on children's imagination.
Stick to the rational side of Buddhism, whenever possible, in the presence of an atheist interlocutor such as your wife. If you let your own enthusiasm for Buddhism transpire during your delivery, and feel you are able to stand the test of questions with solid, rational arguments, you should do well.
...Does 'her family' share her desire to know more? Presumably they are asking through her....?
Otherwise, it is not skilful to engage with others, if it's not what they want to do....
if however, it is a familial request, always preface what you say with:
"This is merely what I have heard, or understand...."
I always explain to those who actively seek information that my word is most definitely NOT the last one on the matter, and they should ALWAYS seek further information through their own research....
It's never backfired on me yet....
What I meant to say is there are approaches that are more palatable to non Buddhists of which I am myself. Though some might disagree Jon Kabot-Zinns approach is Buddhism without the Buddhism. That said _you can convey the same in your own words- words that come from your "heart" not your head _so to speak. Bob
I was just talking to my teenager last night and I asked him how it is that he can explain such difficult science topics to random people (like me, lol). He said "I can explain it because I understand it fully. If you can't teach it to someone else, it's probably because you don't understand it well enough yourself."
I find that to be pretty true. Sometimes, it really is just the combination of the lack of Buddhist vocabulary on the part of the asker, and time. Given lots of time and their willingness to listen, I can eventually arrive at the point, lol. But a lot of the time I cannot answer a question because I am still working through it myself, sometimes it's just that a piece is missing and I can't quite put the whole picture together well enough to show someone else. I don't want to attempt to give answers in those scenarios because I feel I am misrepresenting the Dharma but attempting to teach something I don't quite understand. It gives the inexperienced an incorrect perception.
I have said this before, but the words "I don't know" are extremely liberating, and probably true for all of us, in many situations....
On a point of order rather than being confrontational, I feel obliged to point out once more that Dzogchen and Mahamudra ( which together make up a big slice of the Vajrayana ) do not start from the 4NT and 8FP , and in fact make very little reference to them.
Thanks for starting this thread @Bunk it's very useful. I am terrible at explaining my beliefs to ppl.. I just never know where to start, and usually end up in a weird knot lol. Thanks everyone for the really useful tips!
Yes, @Citta, but since the first speech of the Buddha revolves around the 4NT, it's easier to begin an introduction to Buddhism from there, without getting into the particulars of each tradition. Even the Dalai Lama wrote a book on the 4NT and Thich Nhat Hahn dedicates a lengthy chapter to it in "The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching."
From Ananda Coomaraswamy, to Alexandra David-Neel (who studied Buddhism in Tibet), to T.W. Rhys Davids, most introductions to Buddhism inevitably mention the 4NT.
Naturally, one can always add that there are different traditions within Buddhism with different points of view.
I think the problem @dharmamom comes in when people are Vajrayana students, if that is where they started, they they won't have remotely the same understanding of the 4NT as paths where it is emphasized. Because I started my path with doing a lot of reading before I met my teacher, I had an introduction to it from TNH and others. If I had not done reading, and had simply picked up with my teacher, I would not have been introduced to the 4NT the way others were. The 4NT is wound within Vajrayana teachings, but it is not taught separately, and had I started just with my teacher, I would have had to look up the 4NT separately to figure out what was meant by them. Anyhow, my point is that there are probably a lot of Vajrayana students who would not consider the 4NT to be the first obvious starting point for introducing Buddhism...because that is not how they were introduced, and it's not an integral part of their practice in the same way it is for others.
It would kind of be like a Lutheran trying to explain communion from a Catholic point of view without having received any Catholic teachings.
The group I practise with is Vajrayana but I am not strictly Vajarayana. I like Buddhism in general.
It would be interesting to hear how exactly a strictly Vajrayana practitioner explains to a non-Buddhist what Buddhism is all about.
I'm not sure some Vajrayana teachings would be easy to convey to an atheist person.
Many Vajrayana groups start newbies off with the Two Truths @dharmamom, and the Bodhisattva ideal. Then raising Bodhicitta. This will usually be alongside practical instruction in Samatha and/or Vipashnya meditation.
That's actually a reason NOT to start with the 4NT and 8FP. Buddhas audience was aesthetics he had lived with who had been renunciate students of meditation for a long time. That is different from many of us with our pampered lives and sense pleasures and lack of meditative mastery. There was very little dust in the eyes of these aesthetics.
That being said my teachers husband wrote a book about the 4NT. And that book would be accessible yet too advanced both at the same time which is similar to Shunryu Suzukis Zen Mind Beginner Mind. Too advanced and yet a beginner can pick up the vibe and limber up.
@karasti said
That's what my teacher says. She says she covers facets of the eightfold path and also tries to increase confidence and exposure to teachings to help with right view. Right view is the difference between a NOBLE truth and a 'logical idea'.
When answering a request for insight into Buddhism, I always begin by saying that I do not represent Buddhism and that my views are mine only. Then I pull out my favorite quote of the Buddha's... "Believe nothing, o' monks..."
What's the name of the book, @Jeffrey? Can it be bought on Amazon?
To each tradition, its own. I still find the 4NT make an essential part of the Buddhist teaching and appeals to a wider non-Buddhist audience.
Edit: Just an aside note. The Dalai Lama has three books where he discusses the 4NT.
I think the 4NT are great. But the thing is that they are just four logical ideas until they are investigated very deeply. Someone without studying Buddhism could understand: suffering, craving, release of craving, path of behaviour, calm, and mind. That we can understand our first day. But we don't realize four NOBLE truths until the right view comes. Until then they are ways to create good karma, but not yet cutting the root.
Here's Rigdzin's book http://www.amazon.com/Never-Turn-Away-Buddhist-Beyond/dp/0861714881
It is about the 4NT but it is written differently than sort of covering the 4 bullet points.
Developing right view is the work of a lifetime, @Jeffrey.
It takes studying, sweating on the cushion and the personal will to take responsibility for your own way to relate to suffering.
We're talking about introducing people to Buddhism here. Give them a gist, and whether they choose to delve deeper is up to them.
The 4NT and the N8P are very logical teachings that can be intellectually grasped by people from all backgrounds and goes down very well with people who are not too particularly religious.
Try explaining the concepts of bodhicitta and bodhisattva to people who are mired in their petty problems or wrestling with big transcendental issues! They will simply shrug off Buddhism as one more religion nuisance.
When you present them with logical tools to work first on their own suffering, they will naturally grow into compassion and lovingkindness.
I am beginning to wonder, why do you think that the Buddha's first speech was about 4NT?
When he became enlightened, he met someone along the way. He said to this person "I am a Buddha." The person shrugged and walked away.
When he met his former colleagues, he presented them with the 4NT and history changed forever.
Why do you think the first person walked away? Because the Buddha did not tell him something that he could apply to his own life. Because the Buddha's enlightenment was not relevant to his own life.
So the Buddha decided to change his speech.
@dharmamom, regarding Buddhas first sermon I read the following..
Buddha when he attained the final goal of enlightenment was traveling in the forest when he met a yogi in the woods. Buddha said something like "friend I have attained the deathless" etc etc etc etc
The yogi not knowing what to say said "let it be so"
In this meeting Buddha realized that he had to give a teaching that someone could access. He had to develope something that he could actually pass on.
That story is just as you said it.
But all of that does not change the fact that the listeners at deer park were aesthetic/renunciates and masters of meditation. Thus a westerner who is a Christian, atheist, epicurian or whatever does not have so much access to understanding the 4 NT as those advanced yogis. For example..
Suffering, (yup got that... what next)
Ignorance (Ok don't be ignorant... check.... what next?)
Release (I'm still suffering, don't get release... what next?)
8FP (ok cool.. meditate and do good things... check)
Then (wait a sec I've been meditating for 2 months? This is harder than I thought)..
It's not a bad thing to study the 8FP but it is not NOBLE until right view. So you need some assistance in understanding the 4NT and right view specifically. You need dharma teachings both to intrigue, provide confidence (especially), and address practice issues such as meditation. I think a teacher is more important than following the 4NT and 8FP personally, since not only can a teacher teach those two learnings but they can also encourage, intrigue, and give other teachings such as on meditation. They also have the power to dismiss kleshas and dispell delusions.
Thus in the mahayana/vajrayana (tibetan) the teacher is more important than a mundane (not Noble) study of the 8FP.
I don't object to studying the 4NT and 8FP but I just don't want to pretend that those are beginner and lojong, paramitas, dependent origination, and other teachers are 'too advanced'.
Amazon comment on the Never Turn Away book:
I don't say lojong, paramitas and dependent origination are 'too advanced,' @Jeffrey. I say they require further investigation and further interest on the part of the person who decides to undertake a spiritual path.
Of course the guidance of a teacher is important, but that's too much to ask of someone who maybe is just a bit curious about Buddhism but has no intention to seriously engage in a Buddhist practice.
And the Amazon comment on 'Never Turn Away,' further reinforces the fact that the attraction of the book lies in the fact that it is 'laid out clearly without religious or mystic overtones, a manual to self-improvement.'
There are no quick fixes to human angst, but let's not make of Buddhism a cryptic tool which can only be handed down from teacher to pupil or that requires a high-brow acquaintance with metaphysical or mystical practices, either.
There is a part of Buddhism which can be placed in the hands of people from all walks of life, and help them create for themselves a life that works. It is up to them to decide, 'Okay, this resonates with me, where can I move from here? What else can I learn?'
A friend of mine is a Buddhist Yoga teacher and prepared a meditation session for the literary group. People were totally flabbergasted. They experienced for themselves the practical part of the theory, and that was better than a hundred speeches. Even if they don't intend to pursue Buddhism, the benefits of meditation practice could still improve the quality of their lives.
We'll probably never agree on this point, @Jeffrey, and it's perfectly okay.
I say, it's no coincidence that most books that serve as introduction to Buddhism begin with an exposition of the 4NT and the N8P.
An introduction to Socrates won't probably allow you to discuss the socratic method with a Harvard academic in Greek Studies. That you can do if you are so interested in his philosophy that you decide you want to delve deeper. But his 'The unexamined life is not liveable by man' is a teaching that can resonate with you as a human being and make an impact in your view of life.
You don't need to agree with me. I just mentioned how I personally choose to introduce Buddhism when somebody asks me. It is the first thing that attracted me to it and I find it is the simplest way to convey the Buddha's teachings. By no means do I say it's the only way. I just don't like to entangle my interlocutor into the particulars of each tradition. That he can do for himself if he is interested enough in the subject to further his knowledge.
It may be important to note @dharmamom that many schools of the Vajrayana do not trace their origin back only to Shakyamuni Buddha.
But to various Buddhas include Shakyamuni that arise from the Dharmakaya.
No one would argue that the 4NT and 8FP form for many people an excellent platform for Dharma.
But its not the only platform.
Proof that they are not indispensable is the fact that certain Vajrayana groups including the Karma Kagyu are among the largest groups of Dharma students in the west.
My wife has been a Karma Kagyu student for 25 years..a highly committed one.
The Karma Kagyu traces its origin back to Vajrasattva Buddha.
She has been to Nepal, Switzerland and France on retreats..and has had teachings from most of the senior Karma Kagyu teachers.
I wanted to make sure that mine was not just a subjective experience, I knew about the 4NT and 8FP from Theravadin teachings from before I encountered the Vajrayana.
So I asked her what teachings she had received about those subjects...she had received none at all.
Its a wide Buddhist world.
That's one of the reasons, @Citta, why I prefer not to adhere to just one school of Buddhism. That way I can fathom the Buddhist world more freely.
Like I said, it's my view, not the only view.
Sure.
Just to make it clear in case I haven't. No one from the Vajrayana schools dismisses the NT or 8FP.
Some teachers, particularly from the Gelugpa ( the Dalai Lama's school ) use them as a framwork.
Other schools like the Nyingmapa, The Sakya, and the Kagyu ( which is the largest school )
Do not reference them at all.
When it comes to Dzogchen things take another turn again.
Not only will you find no 4NT or 8FP you will find no or little mention of Shakyamuni at all..
I believe I am right in saying that the same is true in Rinzai Zen.
_/_
I'm not sure where we disagree ..
..
@Citta: my teacher is Gelugpa (not an excuse, just to mention)
@Jeffrey: you're too sweet. I could never disagree with you.. :thumbup:..
Edit: I hate these emoticons. Unskillful emotion, I know...
The best buddhist path to follow is the one where no buddha leads the way...
Hows that working out for ya ?
I prefer the term conversion.
I look at it this way if people don't want to follow the dharma they'll just end up in some hell realm while I am all enlightened and stuff :om: :rarr:
I think a lot of the way to approach it (as usual) depends on knowing you audience. Figuring out how to skillfully introduce Buddhism to inlaws could be fairly easy if you know them and their background and you spend time with them. It could be fairly messy if you don't.
When I was 24 in college for the second time, I was introduced to Buddhism via a textbook. I was interested to learn more, and the second I did, I turned my back on it. Because of the way the 4NT was presented. I didn't know any better at the time to assume a college textbook could be so far off the mark, so I did not pursue other views on it before I dropped Buddhism. A lot of people, especially coming out of Christianity, don't really want to hear such dour things as "All life is, is suffering" nor do they want to be told that everything in the Eightfold Path is "right" because it sounds too much like the commandments. Just depends on the people. I'm not sure having a dinner conversation with family members about religion is an environment conducive to basically acting as a teacher. I think it's a lot easier to figure out what you truly think about your Buddhism, and to express it honestly and openly. There aren't a lot of people in my life, even close people, who I would be comfortable simply laying out the 4NT and the 8FP to. When I think "what is Buddhism to me?" That is not the answer I would give so it would come out sounding insincere and preachy. Explaining doctrine, for me, is very hard to do from an open heart place.
There is of course another option altogether.
One that when I first became involved with Dharma was probably the prevailing one..that when people are ready the Dharma finds them..and that proselytising was rather suspect...
But maybe that's precisely what has happened here. The Dhamma has 'found' them, and they wish to welcome it willingly....
@Bunks Why does your wife want you to talk to them?
Yet it may not be in clothed in Buddhism either. Its essence comes in many forms imo. Bob
I had an opportunity to engage in some apologia a month ago, and it ended up being an experience I hesitate to repeat!
My Christian friend (grew up in Europe and Asia, find the "American" political version of Christianity revolting) took a World Religion class while obtaining her bachelor's degree. She knows I'm 'buddhist' and was telling me something or other . . . a third person entered the conversation and said "Isn't Buddhism and Christianity very similar?' My Christian friend said, vehemently "Oh, no, not even close!" Remember, she is quite open minded in general -- and I was shocked she was so vehement about 'differences'. Shocked at her emotion and surety.
The third person left the breakroom and my Christian friend and I spent the next half hour discussing what she'd gleaned from her World Religion class about Buddhism. The college she was attending is a Catholic college, which may account for the treatment her text book gave Buddhism, but then again, it may have nothing to do with it.
I've said before IMO much of the commonly recognized tenets of Buddhism come across poorly because they are not so much doctrines but experiences. One ends up after a while using the same 'language' to describe Dharma as everyday life, and it fails spectacularly -- unless the person you are talking to shares the experiences.
My Christian friend's 'learnings' from this class really bothered her. Buddhism sounded cold and unemotional, with it's lack of a loving Deity. It sounded self-centered, alienated and alienating. Again, my friend is quite open minded. Her arguments 'against' what she understood of the Dharma were excellent.
What I did was to carefully explain the experiential nature of Buddhism, and the conversation ended with my friend admitting some of what I described was indeed similar, if not the same thing as her own experiences of her religion.
What I don't want to repeat was that I was fully aware of how poorly I represented the Dharma. How easy it is to discuss it HERE, or within myself, and how poorly it translates especially in the context of 'apologia'. I simply do not know enough nor have I had enough experience to dare to do this again any time soon. No big self-downer here, it's just a fact.
This same friend, when we were just beginning our relationship, 'assumed' I was Christian, and after I told her I followed a more Buddhist tradition, she said "You come across as more of a Christian than most Christians I've met over here." I took that, coming from her, as very validating and that she and I do share more than our outer constructs would lead one to think.
Namaste Bunks,
I was married to an atheist who asked me about Buddhism. I explained what I could and then gave him "What the Buddha Taught" to read. He was quite impressed and asked me to teach him Mindfulness Meditation. We used to meditated together before going to bed. He thought Buddhism revered the Buddha as a god. When he realised that was not the case. He was very open to it. I hope even now he has maintained his meditation practise.
In metta,
Raven
In some presentations of Buddhism the heart and love are not emphasized as much as others.
I guess she knows it is something I am into and she has seen the positive affect meditation has had on me.
She hasn't really pressed me about it. Just encouraged me a couple of times to talk about it if I wanted to.