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Is it better to clearly perceive samsara or be blissfully ignorant
Theswingisyellow
Trying to be open to existenceSamsara Veteran
Prompted by Hamsaka's statement: "There are lots of people running around out there with their whole existence poisoned by how clearly they perceive samsara"
This statement resonated with me. At times the realization of the human state, or condition has been a burden and there were times I wished I could be a believer, to have all my concepts neatly tied up, to know there is a nice place I and my family will go. That there is an inherent reason for my existence.
But as they say one can't unlearn something. So I must face what ultimately is the truth of this life, dukkha, annata annica. At times this is hard but this, despite myself, is something that I can't ignore or unlearn.
My rambling thoughts at 0500 in the AM.
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Comments
Thays smile is very broad.
For me I'd rather have clarity of my condition. I find the knowledge that a lot of my suffering is self inflicted and there is a way for it to be reduced a relief. No, not a warm fuzzy," I'll be taken care of " relief that in the back of my mind I'd probably doubt anyways.... Still there is a simple reason for me to be here- because I am ,no more no less..... Working on my selfering (self inflicted suffering - ohh new term!) seems the most logical choice. Bob
@ourself:
Are you talking about this Thay? :
Thay, a member of the fictional Cult of Skaro in Doctor Who television series
That. to me, is Samsaric Bliss.
To know, to understand, to see things, with eyes which are lightly clouded by the veil of longing....
To know it but takes a graceful sweep of the hand, to draw it aside, and see everything in a dazzling light.
The effort is in the sweep....
@Meisterbob: "selfering" love that term!
In the end, some made up world doesn't make it for me either; it conflicts with reality and as such will never be liberating.
@federica:
Nice thoughtful reply. Thank you
Remember that what you call "the truth of life: dukkha, anatta, annica" is ultimately the truth you chose to believe, not the truth. It's the truth all of us on the Buddhist path chose to believe.
Other people choose to find shelter in a paternalistic religion that figures things out for them, that tells them there is father figure up there watching over them, and like you say, when their moment comes, they will meet with all their beloved ones in a nice place up there somewhere.
Not us. We chose another path. We chose to see reality in the face. We chose to face dukkha in all its bare truth. We chose to stare at all those beautiful things we think we crave without the make up, beyond the smirk. We chose to dettach from a reality that elludes us every second because it is impermanent.
That's us. Are you ready to unlearn all you have learnt for the empty promises from other beliefs?
My existence is not poisoned by how clearly I perceive samsara. On the contrary: carpe diem. I enjoy every second of my life to the utmost because I know it does not last. I watch every one of my thoughts as they crop up and feel totally in possession of my life because I am free to choose which ones deserve my attention or not. I am happy because I can figure my own life out by myself with no-one presenting me ready-made solutions. I am happy because I know life is not only dukkha, but when dukkha shows up its ugly nose, I am strong enough to see it out.
I am totally blissful in this samsara and would not change it for a hundred Christian paradises.
That's me.
I prefer to know, to whatever degree I can, because then I have something to work with. For a time, I wanted to be able to make Christianity fit with me, or me fit within it. But my desire to know and understand just didn't work with the "You just have to believe, let God handle the rest" that I was being told. I enjoyed my run with Paganism but I am not disciplined enough to maintain any sort of practice or study without a more regimented path. It was too much a "whatever you believe is fine and we can fit it in, and whatever views you happen to hold are all 100% fine, too" and there were no remotely local groups to meet with so I had no motivation, no elders, no friends, no one to bounce questions off of. In Buddhism I find answers, even if they aren't always the answers I want, and regardless I understand that I have a lot to work with and just like a steady exercise routine, I see steady positive changes. That's enough for me.
Thays smile is very broad.> @Theswingisyellow said:
No, lol... It's a nickname for Thich Nhat Hanh, sorry about that.
Middle path.
There is so much over-analyzing of every word and phrase by some on the forum that they would be better to take the middle path and be neither dwell on samsara or be "blissfully ignorant.
what do you mean by 'over-analysing'....?
The path isn't that bad. Pema Chodron says meditation is: being your own friend, seeing what is there, sitting with difficult states, being in the present, and making no big deal.
The seeing what is present might be touchy at times, but with the others it is not a bad way to live.
I am guilty of this @vinlyn
For me, it's part of trying to understand things though. It's about trying to understand the context in which things are said (which can be difficult over the internet!)
But I also agree with what you say too.. it's just difficult to get there sometimes.
No thanks. I don't want to over-analyze over-analysing...but note that the phrase "he (or she) is so anal" comes from the word analyzing.
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Definition of 'Analysis':
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late 16th century: via medieval Latin from Greek analusis, from analuein 'unloose', from ana- 'up' + luein 'loosen'.
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In light of that definition/origin, one may be tempted to consider the word as immediately associated with anal matter...
However, if we search for the word 'anal', it's origin is -
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Much as one might be tempted to connect 'analysis' with 'anal', they are in fact, unconnected.
I have suffered off and on with depression my entire life. But I will tell you that the only thing that really made a difference for me was when I began to study Buddhism and really shift my thinking.
See, my depression wasn't always of the "pointless" sort. For one example, I grew up thinking I was going to Hell for being gay, wondering why God had forsaken me, convinced I could withstand this "test" from God (as I was taught). I really believed that everything happened for a reason and that he always had a plan... But in studying Buddhism, my thinking changed when I encountered the concept of the Ten Worlds.
I realized that instead of something being done to me I had a certain amount of control over my life, my depression. I wasn't just bumbling along, dodging the slings and arrows, life was really what I made it. In reality, the idea that everything is "in God's hands" didn't make me feel relief, it made me feel helpless. I suddenly realized that I had been blaming a lot of external forces for my suffering. Moving away from a belief in God and fate, and yes, even an eternal afterlife... caused me to adopt a sense of accountability for my life, and thus, for the first time in my life... it made me feel truly free.
Whenever I encounter new beliefs, I ask myself what the ultimate result of that belief would be on my life. In regards to Heaven, for me, the idea that my eventual end will be met with every comfort (including those that have passed) and basically serve as an end to this suffering, doesn't actually seem to grant a positive effect on this life(which is the only thing that we can actually prove we will be granted).
These beliefs are fine for some, but for me, I just couldn't harbor them any more. I don't want to be in a rush to my end, I want to try and figure out how I can enjoy the life I have here in the now.
When occasionally people speak to me, and try to justify Christianity over Buddhism, (and I'm not instigating an 'us vs them' discussion, here....) one of the things I explain to them, about Buddhism that appeals to me, is that in Christianity, you are expected to put it all 'out there' in the hope that some greater power will take care of everything.
In Buddhism, you get to deal with all of it 'in here'. The Buck stops within.
And far from taking the easy way out, it's actually much harder to step up to the plate and take full responsibility.
but you DO get to exercise more self-control, and rather than being limiting, it's exhilaratingly liberating.
It's better to clearly perceive samsara because if you do, then you don't suffer.
If you suffer from perceiving samsara, that just means you don't perceive it clearly.
I think that's called an "oxymoron"
Pain just is. It is part of life. I will have pain of all sorts- physical, emotional. The suffering is optional. I don't have to add to the pain. When I attach a story to the pain, when I take it personally, I add to the pain, suffer. Simple,not easy. It can be subtle too. The "broken shoelaces" can be harder to be mindful for...slip under the radar so to speak. Bob
@Theswingisyellow I have read your opening post several times. It resonates, except for one thing... "you can't unlearn something". Isn't that what a chunk of Buddhism is about? Unlearning all the stuff that clutters our brains and getting back to our essence?
I may have misunderstood.. I have not heard that saying before.
sorry I feel I should expand... so, we can unlearn things, because Buddhism is successful. By successful I don't mean we all get enlightened, but there are steps we are able to trace.. go back... and go 'home' (meditation/mindfulness for example) then over time we unlearn things that are patterns that are no good for us. Then, we implement better patterns, or ways of existing.
I hope I am making some sense!
The term "anal" in that context actually comes from the phrase "anal retentive" as a description of a person who is overly fussy about particulars and can't let anything go.
Yes, and in my view, trying to nail down everything about samsara -- when we admit we can't even understand karma -- is being anal and it isn't helping to wallow in it.
For me anal retentive means that everything must be the right way and everyone else is doing it the 'wrong' way. An example was my gramma barking orders about how my mom should make her bed. Fussy is a good example.
So how does 'fussy' relate to Buddhism? That is a good question.
Kia Ora,
Is it better to clearly perceive samsara or be blissfully ignorant
Who wants to know ?
Metta Shoshin
I realize that just messing around
@ourself
Unlearn in the way that once I stop believing in Santa Claus i can't start believing in him again. In one way, once the veil is removed you can't put it back on again.
Should we warn @Jll on the thread "Dealing with constipation" that one of the side effects of constipation will be that she'll begin to over-analyze Buddhism?
With the qualification that one of the largest schools of Buddhism is Pure Land, which relies on "other power " ..that of Amida Buddha , just as much as Christianity relies on the 'other power' of Christ.
Probably because of an uncomfortable similarity, Pure Land is the least known school of Buddhism in the west. Despite the fact that it has many more followers than Zen or mainstream Mahayana.
Interestingly DT Suzuki the pioneer who introduced many westerners to Buddhism thought that Pure Land would eventually be the form of Buddhism that would be most successful in terms of numbers in the west too. But that it would take a couple of generations.
It would not be a problem at all if you are the lucky one who is not burdened thus. That while there is dukkha, annata, and annica there is also a prescription which you could understand and identify with and thus is able to be above them all.
@Theswingisyellow said:
Oh I see what you mean now, thanks for the clarification!
How good are rambling thoughts! For me I've never been happier. To know that the senseless pursuits I once strived to obtain are pointless!
I can appreciate being here and now so much more! And man there are some great books and lectures on Buddhism!
I just read Joshus Dog( excuse spelling)
Most of the people I have met who believe in a amazing afterlife seem pretty unamazed being here. I Am even happy when doing the dishes! Most days anyways haha.
Welcome to reality! We have been here the whole time haha
Indeed reflecting on the being grateful thread it is samsara that has brought me to this, THIS life!
Not something else.
Gassho
I don't think samsara is a joke or something to nimbly leap over or reason away with clever slogans about anatta or delusion. My insight is the bleak pointlessness of samsara is the first noble truth, in its bare essence. It really IS pointlessly circular and unendingly, exhaustingly bleak.
Needless to mention what the second noble truth tells us, but until samsara is fully grasped by me, I'll still chase those tattered remnants, the shadows and the echoes.
Our society tends to pathologize people who are ironically courageous enough to stand by their experience of samsara. All you need is basic rationality to perceive enough samsara to permanently bend your brain
. You are 'depressed' if you aren't moved by having a new kitchen installed, or getting a 'better' job.
Samsara is our worst nightmare. Thank goodness for the other three noble truths.
I've gotten very, very attached to my misery, without any idea I've put it on a pedestal and granted it the status of a power greater than myself. I had no idea I was doing this, I thought my misery followed me like a plague. It is exactly the other way around.
This reminds me of the importance of always having a Beginner's Mind.
"I don't think samsara is a joke or something to nimbly leap over or reason away with clever slogans about anatta or delusion."
Was I doing this ? I am confused?? The statement of yours resonated with me and it was a reasonable question I thought. I meant no offence to you.
Not been all fun and games, I almost pulled the trigger more than once. It was my ongoing nightmare, not so much anymore. But it was in the darkness, the depths of depression, anxiety and despair that led me home. Far from being the worst thing in life, it is life along with the rest. It is not apart from me. This experience, this life is the jewel, it is the wonder, this right here. Not apart, not separate, the whole of it is okay.
I am grateful.
I don't want to trivialize another's pain or difficulty.
This is where I am with mine. This is the only view (my own samsara) I can honestly speak to
That's precisely why we have the other three truths: not to get stuck in the first truth, parallyzed by dukkha and pining over samsara.
So samsara is bleak, pointless and circular. Now scroll down to truth number two and work from there all the way down till the fourth truth.
As you put the N8P into practice, as you live it and Right View develops, go back to truth number one and see if you don't see it differently...
I never had amnesia, but I am sure that ignorance is highly overrated.
Actually, I don't think you can be blissfully ignorant of samsara for long. The reality check sooner or later always strikes.
You can choose to remain blissfully ignorant as long as life goes your way. When life throws you a curve, there's no way you can hush the internal existential angst.
world of sleepers
Anyway in my own view I tend to be more content and overall happy when I become more aware. I grew up feeling unsatisfied, suffering in my mind and chasing perfection but never actually achieving that.
Now I still experience these things but meditation and buddhist writing provided me with a tangible idea of how these things work, where they come from and most importantly that my suffering is not unique. I'm not the only person experiencing this.
I truly believe knowledge and awareness can directly counteract the insidious and negative of samsara but you have to put in the work and learn how to deal with those things once your aware of them.
Ignorance might bring relieve but it can also lead you down some seriously dark roads and when you realize it it's too late.
Hey Theswingisyellow my definition of "life is dukkha" is: "life is whatever we need at the time to help us learn about ourselves, & then to grow as new souls in the making..I mean i don't wish to state the obvious but how can believing in something now, that only happens to us in the afterlife be taking the middle way..I have a few ideas about samsara reincarnation & the after life, but i don't have any fixed beliefs as i know they would be false beliefs..I mean you think about it any time your discussing or talking about samsara reincarnation or the after life etc, your talking about things that will never be proved to anyone whilst their alive..So as the whole idea of Buddhism is less thought, it would be a good idea to not contemplate life after death etc too much, but rather to talk about how to practice, & to then practice often.