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Why Veganism/Vegetarianism Is Always An Aspiration That Cannot Be Fully Realised.
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I suggest you read other vegan/vegatarianism vs meatlovers thread and tread warily when making comments like those above :eek2: ...
And to be pedantic, a lot of Tibetan monks sweep the footpath so they can avoid the bugs on the footpath. One temple of Tibetan monks in New York in the 80's only got the pest control in when the roaches overran them.
vegetarianism has always been a worse powder keg even than rebirth here at new buddhist.
It is on any site. People get very passionate about it. Sometimes irrationally passionate about it, I should add.
Hitler ate nematodes
There and now Godwins law is fulfilled.
I find that they are closely tied by the equally contentious karma issue. It seems that for the devout, killing and eating beings is seen as a cause for unfavourable rebirth. Which of course, is a strictly faith based notion.
For someone like me who has spent his life killing and eating beings, without karmic consequences, it becomes a stretch to accept that negative karma only produces negative results in some future life to another person who thinks he is me.
My conclusion is that the negative result that I risk is continued ignorance, greed and aversion.
The same result that everyone, veg or not, can fall to if they aren't paying attention.
I believe that what you eat has little bearing on whether you attain insight or not, unless it is ruining your health.
I am fairly sure that if there had not been a threat that Samye-Ling would have been closed by the local authorities if they had done nothing, everyone would have co-existed with the rats.
I agree with you there. The fact that we can't do everything shouldn't be an excuse for doing nothing.
It's always been a controversial topic...were you not aware of that?
Then there was the battle between Samye-Ling and the Forestry Commission, but that can wait for another day....
Gosh and golly really ? Well hush ma mouth...
Controversial is one thing...utter irrationality and failing to read what is being said and substituting another thread which fits one's agenda better for the existing one is quite another.
There are reasons why seeker242 has been banned or suspended from even more forums than you Norman for crashing an animal rights agenda into every debate.
I haven't been banned from any forums, and this seems like an ad hom attack. What's your problem - can't you bear somebody disagreeing with you?
Well I must have a word with that Aloka then for misinforming me. Tsk tsk.
She says that you have been banned from TWO for constant attacks on members who were meat eaters..
Its a small Buddhist world Norman a.k.a ' Porpoise ', the UK Dharma/Dhamma scene.
Stick around long enough and the same usual suspects do another turn around the block wearing the same badges, no matter how frequently they change forum.
New idea: we judge folks on what they do and say here and engage them based on that, not what you think / heard they did somewhere else from the Buddha scene police.
[dhammadramallama.jpg]
Fair point, and one that cuts two ways @Linc.
For instance when one is followed to a forum by someone who objects to a discussion point on another forum.
But you are correct. The buck has to stop.
@Citta: if you mean the Aloka, she once made what I found to be a very distasteful remark to a meat-eater herself.
By the time I pointed out my opinion, she had already toned down her virulent remark and editted her comment.
I don't know how much acquainted you are with her, but people don't stay long in her forum...
Well as I said @dharmamom the buck has to stop somewhere.
It might as well be here.
What exactly is the buck that stops?
This....? :buck: .
And he's vegan, too....
I think the issue here with defining "veganism" is that most definitions want to impart some sort of philosophy. In practical application, being a vegan literally just means not eating any animals or animal byproducts. The word "sentient" is not always included in the definition. I've never met a vegan who was concerned with the bacteria on their food. I've also never met a vegan who refused to take antibiotics when they are sick, which is essentially, a similar issue, isn't it?
Not all vegans are vegans for so called "compassionate" reasons. I have a friend who went vegan for health reasons, is that wrong? On paper, she is a strict vegan, even abstaining from some of the more difficult things like foods with red #4/cochineal(derived from insects) and honey.
I see your point, and I like your overall message, but I'm just not sure what to do with it. The only reason I can surmise that this would be relevant, is in an effort to knock vegans off of their metaphorical high horses to inform them that they need to drop the "sentient" word from their definition, should they choose to define themselves in that way. Of course, awareness is never a bad thing, but I'm just not very sure about the intent here.
Kia Ora,
We may not realize it, but each one of us is a walking ecosystem. Minuscule, eight-legged Demodex mites nestle head down inside the follicles of the eyelashes, feasting unnoticed on skin cells. Microscopic bacteria live on the tongue, teeth, and skin and in the intestine*. Dormant viruses like herpes simplex may loiter for years inside nerve cells. Perhaps strangest of all are the self-replicating, viruslike pieces of DNA that infected ancient humans and still make up about 8 percent of our genome.
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/your-body-is-a-planet
Umm by washing our bodies we could be killing some of them off ....So the solution... "Don't wash" (which should not be a problem for Poms) .
..
Metta Shoshin
there are more bacteria cells in your body than human cells ! :hair:
I utterly dislike to see all over the Buddhist forums how people have rows over Vegetarianism / Veganism. I find it totally anti-Buddhist.
Instead of finding one more reason to discriminate each other, see ourselves as something separate and judging ourselves, why don't we simply agree to disagree on certain issues and respect each other's decisions?
Let's not use the Buddha as one more weapon to hail against the person whose choices in life we don't share.
Yeah, that's right, make me redundant.....
.
@dharmamom totally agree with you. I guess everybody has there own personal beliefs. There's really nothing to argue over.
The reason I like Buddhism is there are no rules, the different schools of Buddhism are great because it can suit everyone. It's nothing to argue over.
Like Mahayana and Hinayana.
Vegetarian and vegan.
Potato potato
Well, @Earthninja, let's not get into the "rules" issue because that's calling the guns again.
..
Let's say that specifically in the case of Vegetarianism itself, there are no fixed precepts...
The problem is that many in the non-meat-eating crowd tend to feel they have to preach it. And then the rest of us push back. It is no different, conceptually, than evangelical Christians preaching, and then getting push-back from non-evangelicals. How often in Buddhism to we mention action followed by reaction?
...The trick is to attempt to make the response kinder and kinder.... not escalate it to seismic proportions.
A good friend of mine, a singer called Earl Okin, would often find that if he worked at clubs, the voices of the people would often begin drowning out his performance.
So rather than up the volume, he would sing more quietly.
This made people strain to hear him, and they would either start to whisper and speak a lot more quietly, or shut up altogether.
Particularly if other members of the audience, attempting to listen intently, got a bit annoyed at the constant murmuring....
I never saw it fail....
What a fortunate thing it is that we have local authorities who take care of such things.
In a way, it comes down to absolutes. The old argument of spirit of the law, versus letter of the law. I would think that the intent of the vegan is more important than the minutiae. If the approach is not perfect, not as important as the effect.
Like that story about the person walking along a beach and throwing the starfish back into the sea. Will it save all starfish? Of course not, but it mattered to the starfish and I dare say, it mattered to the thrower too.
I ask myself this regularly, since I still eat meat and I keep a close on on my feelings and reasonings about it, but often times when I feel the need to push back/react/defend, I ask myself why. It brings interesting answers. I'm not a fan of preaching. But it shouldn't bother me (beyond mild annoyance, which I should be able to walk away from) if I'm 100% sure about my own beliefs. Same reasoning I apply to some Christians, if they are so sure of their beliefs, why should my different beliefs cause them to defend theirs?
The truth is, I would rather be at least closer to vegetarian than I am. I make small improvement where I can. Reality is, on one income with 3 children and a husband, all of whom happily eat meat and have zero desire to give it up, it is not feasible. We do not have the time or money to plan 2 menus. So I plan a couple for myself, and eat with the family the rest of the time.
So when someone's comment grabs me, it's because I know that sometimes I am eating meat against even my own wishes and because that bothers me, their comments bother me. All I can do is the best with what I have. So I do. Sometimes it irritates me that others seem to imply that what I do, is not enough because I still eat meat. But if I know I am doing the best I can, why should their doubts about my life bother me?
Kia Ora,
With all said and done...In the end it all boils down to "Whatever floats your boat !" (If you get my 'Buddhism flavoured' drift) . :coffee: ..
Metta Shoshin
Let's hope those words are the curtain call to all the bloodshed...
Thanks Lincoln. For the record I haven't been banned from any Buddhist forums, for "attacks" on meat-eaters or anything else. And for the record I think it's sad that people use gossip to score points and attack other members.
I won't disagree with what you said, because I know that it is true... However, I would like to add a perspective that you might not be privy to based on your own experiences. Living as a vegetarian, you get just as much unsolicited flak from meat-eaters, possibly even more. It's a very common occurrence for meat-eaters I know to wiggle their meat in front of my face or tell me how dumb they think my choices are. I think this is more of a chicken and the egg type argument... everyone pushing back against perceived judgments that might be all mind-made.
I really like what @karasti said, because this is always what I figured was going on when people are irrationally rude concerning the topic. I think meat-eaters assume that I'm making some sort of personal judgment of them for eating meat and feel the need to defend themselves, and I think a lot of vegan/vegetarians walk around feeling like meat-eaters are judging them for not eating meat, and therefore feel the need to defend themselves. There's jerks on both sides of the fence, but it's important to remember that the loudest voice is usually just that. Not the norm.
(Edit: Just want to be clear that I'm not calling you a jerk, karasti. Lol. Just brought you up because you became aware of your inner motivations, which I think most people are not.)
I would also like to take this moment to admit something... I've started eating fish again (mostly because I'm just shit at meal planning and fish doesn't aggravate my digestive issues like other meat does) and now I get flak from everyone.
I think people who are vegetarian or vegan for moral reasons are doing an honorable thing. I admire them. I can't imagine ever waving meat in front of their faces :O I feel kind of ashamed eating meat in their presence, really.
@karasti I've been on again/off again vegetarian for nearly 10 years now. There was a point where I was working crazy hours (sometimes up to 70/week) in a restaurant that, although we did have vegetarian dishes, didn't provide enough nutrition for me to subsist on healthily. Meal planning wasn't really feasible because you never knew if your shift would be 6 hours or 14 and on most days, you were lucky if you got a legitimate break to eat. I had to accept that depriving myself in the name of "compassion" wasn't helpful nor wise. When I went back to eating meat... I felt guilty every day. I felt guilty that I loved meat and enjoyed its flavor. When I left that job, I was able to go back to vegetarianism... but still, never really excelling in the kitchen, my extremely high metabolism, and probably just my general laziness made it hard for me to be a "healthy vegetarian." After years of just existing, I kind of had to accept a compromise. For me, that compromise was fish.
When I said I get flak from both sides of the fence now, I meant it. Meat-eaters like to poke holes in my choices saying, "What, fish don't have feelings?" And "pescatarian" is a dirty word to many vegetarians, like a cop-out. Being completely honest, my switch to pescatarian was half health concern and half just because I really like sushi (and fish in general) and I just missed it so much. Fish is such a big part of my family life, does it really matter if I have a few pieces of pickled herring at family parties? I no longer think so, and I've finally come to the point where I feel okay with it. I don't eat fish every day. I don't always choose the seafood option on the menu. But I still feel like I'm just doing what I personally can do.
I feel like with diet, there are so many extremes that we could go to. You could start with pescatarian... then become full vegetarian... then become vegan... then start worrying about the insects killed by modern farming... then start thinking about the bacteria! When does it stop? I feel like all of this is belaboring the point of compassion and in many cases, just makes people feel like quitting before they even start. So what if you're not the best, the most perfect, if everyone did what they felt like they could do, it would help the whole, wouldn't it? You know the reasons for your decisions, and they are sound reasons btw, so you're just doing what you feel like you can do. If you feel like there is more you could do, then do it. There are a lot of ways to make sneaky vegetarian dishes that most meat-eaters won't even notice. (Ground beef used in tacos, spaghetti, or stroganoff, for example, can often be substituted for a vegetarian protein without notice.) If your family is against vegetarian dishes out of a misguided idea that they are less than (I had an uncle who always referred to it as "rabbit food"), make it your mission to change their minds. But whatever you do, don't feel bad that your circumstances limit you. All we can do is what we can.
I make changes where I find room to do so, for sure. My oldest is on the autism spectrum and has food texture issues, so he doesn't eat foods that are mixed, for the most part. Not even pizza, he takes it apart, lol. My husbands family is a farming family, and they eat meat with every meal, and even between meal snacks! So for me, getting to the point I only eat meat with one meal was a chore, lol. I expect it'll continue to evolve. I don't know if I'll ever 100% give up meat. But I'd be fine having it just like once a week, or even less often than that.
Kia Ora,
You are what you eat, so eat well !
Metta Shoshin
@karasti Check this out: The startling effects of going vegetarian for just one day.
Of course that article is talking about what if the whole U.S. stopped eating meat, but the point is, behind every choice, there is an effect. Just like with voting, if everyone just gave up, no effect would be made. Try and think of each veg choice you make as an important contribution to the whole, instead of the only time you aren't failing.
This is sooo true, @zombiegirl. Like @karasti, I would like to be more committed to my vegetarian beliefs, but I'm also grafted into a family of ravenous meat-eaters.
I stick to a vegetarian meal as much as possible, though now and then I eat some meat.
But it's true that the unremittent attack on the part of the rest of the family and friends grates your psyche.
Whenever I serve everyone their meat, and come back from the kitchen with my vegetarian course, no-one (my Mum is probably the worst) fails to comment on how I am depleting my health, or have you talked it over with your physician, or are you sure this is healthy. Or husband adding "When we met you weren't vegetarian: you have changed."
I am not for, I am not against any idea. I am for everybody respecting other people's choice.
Kia Ora,
My advice more often than not, is not to take my advice, but on this occasion I would have to say, do what 'your' conscience tell you to do ...Remember it's "Do
Nothe least possible Harm" under the circumstances....But most importantly "Don't beat yourself up about it !" That's not going to solve anything ....I'm in the fortunate position to be vegetarian (Ovo lacto = on the rare occasion free range eggs and vegetarian cheese...I drink soy, almond or rice milk) and I have been for almost 40 years now...So when it comes to debates like this...over the years I've been there and done/heard that...Nobody wins, opinions only feed off each other and become stronger- more resentment, more frustration, more anger=hatred...
"The egos have landed!"
Metta Shoshin
Bump.
I thought it might be useful to return to the O.P.
Which actually is a plea for tolerance regarding diet. That was the intention.
_/_
Well, here I am eating anything out of the freezer (cooked first, I would hastily add) in case we have to leave at short notice, thereby reducing the sheer amount of 'stuff' we have to take with us; left-over chips from yesterday's fish and chips; onion gravy (I make a very good one if I say so myself) and "Morisson's meat-free sausages".
A delicacy entirely devoid of any animal content, but so revolting that yes, it's almost enough to drive me back to the dark, carnivorous side.
Note to the British contingency: Avoid these at all costs. And at £1.50p for 6, the cost is quite low....
On the other hand Morrison's do a surprisingly good sausage roll..as I discovered when served them by my granddaughter who ' hadn't got around to baking her own ' that week.
ASDA (UK) do the best meat-free sausages in my kid's opinions (I think they are the 'lincolnshire' style ones) and we have pretty much had most of the markets offerings of meat-free sausages. Then comes Quorn in a close second place - but its over-priced cow-feed if you ask me.