Is Buddhism Relational?
Eugene
Explorer
Hi, again, good people. I'm starting this new thread (Federica, you can guide me/warn me if I'm starting too many threads) in response to karasti (sp?), who commented in my Truth Claims thread about seeking spiritual sustenance (I'm paraphrasing) "outside oneself." And thanks, karasti, I'm going to think more about that. A quick comment: it's kind of hard to picture God as limited to "outside oneself." I mean, it kind of goes against the definition of God as Infinite. But here's my new thread question:
For Christians, the world -- the absolute nature of the world -- is fundamentally relational. It involves love/compassion for other beings; and in fact, God is a Relationship even, if you take the doctrine of the Trinity seriously.
Now (my big doctrinal hang-up re: Buddhism): is Buddhism a faith/practice that is relational, because we're all conditioned by each other (including the non-sentient realm); or is it really, as one Christian writer expressed, just "one large person shaking hands with him/herself?" Are we all just one big process? Or, when we love, do we love another?
Comments
You are so feeling around the inexpressible here @Eugene. But from a singular male mahayana POV - yes - everything is intimately related, and nothing hapoens without a relationship..
Hm, interesting questions. I suppose the answer depends on how you look at things. On the conventional level, for example, I think Buddhism can certainly be said to be relational, involving the cultivation of loving-kindness, compassion, and a spirit of harmlessness towards all sentient beings, including ourselves. This is reflected in the precepts, as well as things like the four divine abodes (even in Buddhism, love can be salvific).
Whether that's how things are in the ultimate sense (non-duality and all that jazz), I can't say; but I don't think it really matter at this point. We have to start where we are, and work with what we have on our journey towards awakening, which includes our relationship to the world around us. As Buddhist, we strive to make our intentions and interactions more skillful, just as Christians try in their attempt to follow Jesus' commandment to 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' And it's not really relevant whether you're ontologically loving your neighbor or yourself, the point is just to love.
Our relationship with the world at large, begins first of all through the relationship we have with ourselves.
Christ's message to his followers was to go out and spread the word.
One of the last things the Buddha advised his followers, before he died, was to 'be a lamp unto yourselves'.
One simile used in Buddhism is that of the oxygen mask in the aeroplane. The instructions are always to put on your mask first before helping others with theirs.
we are certainly advised, and encouraged , to cultivate Compassion, Loving Kindness, Empathetic Joy and Equanimity, (These are called the Four Divine States, or the 4 Brahma-Viharas) with regard to our fellow sentient beings - but we must also ensure we include ourselves within that framework of virtues.
In order to exist with others in a cohesive, constructive way, it is vital to nourish, sustain and perpetuate a relationship which demonstrates unconditional Love.
In order to exist with others, that we do the same with ourselves, is an indispensable requirement.
Refuge is both inside and outside. Inside you work hard and contemplate. Outside the dharma will always be there even if you forget about it for awhile. The dharma will always do something to bring you back 'to the point'.
Life is relational. Buddhism competently describes a reality where everything is interconnected and interrelated, and where the nature of sentient beings to seek happiness and avoid suffering is universal. It drives us to see clearly that our actions do matter, and they do matter to other sentient beings. Other religions tend to focus on some other time or place, sometimes not even on this Earth (e.g. Heaven); Buddhism focuses on the here-and-now, and how to traverse the moments skillfully... with wisdom and compassion, improving the conditions of our lives and the lives of our fellow humans.
Dependent Origination anyone?
http://m.wikihow.com/Understand-Dependent-Origination
@lobster I initially put DO in the post, but I changed it to be more plain. Good spot.
In the atoms and molecules of love everything is 'saw-dust'. But in our own feelings we have love that we can experience. So we can say 'oxytocin' is in our blood stream. But really we have an experience of love that is more moving than just thinking love is solely biological. We love other beings. In Buddhism we do that. It is included.
Thanks, all, good points all.
I think also you (and other staunch non-Christians or former-Christians) need to stop comparing Christian and Buddhist rhetoric. You are too busy analysing words you overlook the teachings..............
You iz the smarter cooky. Plain and simple works for me . . .
I will change a bit @dhammachick's comment here, because @Eugene, I think you are so concentrated on trying to make a rapprochement between Christianity and Buddhism, or rather learn Buddhism from your Christian framework, that you fit her quote the other way around.
@AldrisTorvalds and @lobster mentioned Dependent Origination. Spoiler alert: at the beginning of the chain of DO there is no original cause (i.e: no God).
We are inserted in a big loop of interconnection and our tiny self (or as his HH the Dalai Lama so nicely put it, "the interface of various factors and various moments of the continuum that form my being") is enmeshed in this macro-network by which our decisions affect others' and others' decisions affect ours. We are the effect of something and at the same time the cause of something else. And so on ad infinitum.
When you exercise compassion, loving-kindness, empathetic joy and equanimity, four fundamentals in the Buddhist doctrine, as pointed out by @federica above, there is ideally no ulterior selfish motivation. They are the result of your insight into the true nature of reality. It's called wisdom.
You realize that every sentient being's destiny is interconnected, and your neighbour's well-being can only derive in your own well-being, as well as his perjury entails your own. I mean, how more relational can Buddhism get?
A Christian friend of mine told me she did not like atheists because she mistrusted people who did not "fear God."
Another Christian friend told me that younger generations misbehave because (her textual words), "unlike us, they have no fear of God."
Ok, folks, I get it, I get it! I think too much. But, as I've pointed out elsewhere, this is a "discussion board." I don't mean to irritate anyone. BTW, dharmamom, I find the Four Abodes to be a really practice. What I've been doing (I mean, much to my surprise that I'm doing any of this), is after the Daimoku chant when there's the closing prayer, I meditate using the Four Abodes then.
@eugene don't let the back-and-forth get to you. If you didn't ask the questions, we'd have to ask our own and we've already done that.
There are many similarities between Buddhism and Christianity because suffering is universal, but also important differences. I've never much thought about religion in terms of relationships, but offhand I'd say all religions cover both our relationship to God or the world and somewhere in the teachings is a list of how to treat each other.
I suppose it's all there, like a buffet table you can choose from to guide and justify your actions. One person builds a weapon of judgement and condemnation in the name of their religion, while another finds the courage to live a life of compassion and self-sacrifice. Same religion, same holy scriptures, different minds.
So many Buddhists have substituted the fear of Karma for the fear of God, if they feel the need to fear judgement and retribution. You act with evil intent and Karma will punish you in the next life, instead of God punishing you in the afterlife. Same emotional need for a universe that dispenses justice. Other people of both religions find the teachings call for a life of compassion and self-sacrifice.
I'd like to ask you a question in return. What is it that attracted you to Buddhism in the first place?
There is no need to get defensive or upset. No one is attacking you. You asked for our thoughts and we have given them to you. As you have rightly stated, this is a discussion board. That's what we're doing, discussing.
Metta,
Raven
_ /\ _
I am no irritated, @Eugene.
I just think it gets too confusing trying to learn Buddhism by contrast.
And Nichiren is not representative of all Buddhism.
You should read about different schools to get a good gist of the doctrine.
Thanks, all. I'll remember that this IS a discussion board, as I've pointed out :-). And yes, I've read a lot of Buddhism, am familiar with the different schools, and Nichiren Shu has sort of captured my attention at this point. Again, maybe it's because of the vocalization thing -- I find chanting resonates with my work as a musician. Keeps me centered, and they have meditation as well, and the whole breadth of the Buddhist teachings. I also like my sangha; very cool and down to earth people, as this group seems to me to be.
The question from Cinorjer is most pertinent: why did I start practicing Buddhism? Well, like many people, maybe, I went through a catastrophic life event; and I became really SICK of my own mind. I didn't/don't like the way it functions; don't think it's helpful or wholesome. Two things happened: on the way home from visiting relatives at Christmas, I heard a radio evangelist say (I don't listen to them frequently, but they're entertaining on a long drive): "It's the New Year. Close the chapter! Turn the page!" That struck me. And so I went to a Nichiren New Year's service, and received a little New Year's amulet that had these words from the Lotus Sutra printed on it: "We have received innumerable treasures, although we did not seek them."
So I wanted a new chapter, I wanted to turn the page, and I wanted an unexpected joy and treasure. So I started chanting and other practices because I was sick of my life… just sick of it. I could no doubt have done this as an Eastern Orthodox Christian, which I was/am… we have a pretty good depth of contemplative practice… but I wasn't doing it.
So here I am.
So I wanted a new chapter, I wanted to turn the page, and I wanted an unexpected joy and treasure. So I started chanting and other practices because I was sick of my life… just sick of it. I could no doubt have done this as an Eastern Orthodox Christian, which I was/am… we have a pretty good depth of contemplative practice… but I wasn't doing it.
So here I am. (Eugene)
"Just as all the previous Sugatas, the Buddhas
Generated the mind of enlightenment
And accomplished all the stages
Of the Bodhisattva training,
So will I too, for the sake of all beings,
Generate the mind of enlightenment
And accomplish all the stages
Of the Bodhisattva training." (Avatamsaka Sutra)
I have witnessed a pattern in the practice of most people who convert or embrace Buddhism, and it mirrors my own. They begin practicing and contemplating Buddhism because they're unhappy with their own life. Their practice is motivated by their suffering. Then as they progress and begin to realize a bit of clear mind, they look around and are unhappy with the world that is mired in Dukkha. Then their practice evolves into helping others, motivated by other's suffering.
If that isn't relational, then what is?
Thanks, Cinorjer! Encouraging... Not to bang on my own little branch (REALLY not my intention), but that's a very big deal in Nichiren Shu: cultivating that kind of compassion. Nichiren himself often said that practice only for the sake of oneself is not the way to go. One should practice for others as well, "even at the cost of one's own life" (or so he said). Thanks, again, very encouraging.
P.S. I'm going to read the Flower Garland Sutra someday....
http://dharmaflower.net/_collection/avatamsaka.pdf
Is not compassion by definition relational? At the same time compassion is a recognition of our unity or interconnection with the seemingly other.
@Skeeterkb your words ring truly and melodiously
What about TNH's discourses on "Interbeing?" What he says seems so much fresher and alive to me than does Dependent Origination. See:
http://quotes.justdharma.com/the-insight-of-inter-being/
http://bodhileaf.wordpress.com/2009/05/25/understanding-interbeing/
http://www.upaya.org/dox/Interbeing.pdf