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Why Buddhism may have an uphill battle
zenguitar
Bad BuddhistNew England Veteran
At least, the kind that involves meditation. Many people would rather administer shocks to themselves than sit and do nothing for 15 minutes:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/07/140703142154.htm
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Comments
I've seen it mentioned several times, mainly in the older Buddhist literature, that those to whom a contemplative life are suited to are few.
There are many meditation techniques that engage the mind in a particular activity though, such as metta or tonglen, maybe these types would be more suitable for some.
Also, in the experiment the subjects were just left to "think, ponder, or daydream", there was no option for something like meditation where there could be seen a constructive outcome at the end.
I can see how Buddhism would be a hard sell to many, but also there a plenty who would be happy to learn of a cure for that kind of restlessness.
Buddhism has no battle to fight. Leave that to people who don't understand what Buddhism teaches. Buddhism has been fine for millennia, I doubt this is anything for 'Buddhism' to worry about.
People are the problem; and people are the ones with the battle.
I suppose, and yet surely there was a reason why the Buddha made the effort to teach the Dharma to many people for years after his enlightenment. He must have wanted people to follow this way over another, inferior way, no? He wasn't exactly proselytizing, yet he wasn't totally aloof either.
When people are ready, Buddhadharma is there. No fight , no struggle.
Just the coming together of karmic streams.
Just remember... don't cross the streams.
That was my first thought, too. It's sorta like a smorgasbord. The mashed potatoes are sitting there, but perhaps you prefer noodles.
I watched a Netflix docu called "Ayahuasca: Vine of the Soul" last night. I'd rather drink that than shock myself, given the choice.
It is likely my personal unpacking of 'it all', but "Buddhism being threatened" (my phrase) is just . . . absurd. It's like saying 'carbon chains are at risk'. Do I claim to understand what Buddhism teaches? I'd like to think so.
Buddhism as a religion? Sure, it's being whacked at avidly but all religions are being deconstructed or exposed as medieval thinking. Buddhism (after my whole adult life of semi-intelligent searching), minus dogmas attached over the years, is a method of discovering the nature of the cosmos by an exhaustive recitation of techniques.
I sincerely hope Awakening is possible, I've experienced a progression of awake-ness myself that seems to parallel that of other meditators.
Maybe there are short cuts. Ayahuasca didn't grow in India, and I'm not sure if anything like it did in ancient India when Gotama was alive. I am not opposed to short cuts to decades of meditative absorption, but I doubt I'd be capable of putting any of what I 'see' during such a 'trip' to good use WITHOUT a solid base of contemplation.
In the movie, it sounds like people get the whopper of an 'awakening' FIRST and then spend decades figuring it the hell out, while Buddhist meditation goes about it the other way around?
As I understand it, he tried for years to discover an end to suffering, and having discovered it he taught those who wanted to learn. I don't see it as a competition with other "inferior" ways.
To seek the end to suffering you have to realise the truth of suffering. All the endless game playing and distractions people indulge in are ways of avoiding that realisation. They are temporary and ultimately unsatisfactory. Once you realise that you can progress.
Buddhism doesn't even know it exists, so it can't really be at risk. We just have to label concepts to talk about them. Truth just is, it wouldn't cease to exist if we didn't have a word for it or because people chose to ignore it. What Buddhism offers, I think, is much the same (when you stick to the nuts and bolts and don't get lost in the messy stuff).
The people who think meditating is "doing nothing" are missing the whole point, so to me that signifies that Buddhism just isn't for them. No harm, no foul, Buddhism certainly doesn't care.
Yes, I liked that bit....'doing nothing'.... sure, I would rather be doing something than doing nothing too... but I'd rather meditate than do nothing!
I was thinking about it not long ago. I'm not sure what doing nothing even means. Even if you are sitting staring into space, you are breathing, your body is moving, you are taking in sense sensations. You can't actually do nothing, ever. But if you pay attention to everything you are doing, it changes everything.
Kia Ora,
As others have already mentioned, this finding will have zero impact on the spread of Buddhism, but I do agree with the findings, they back up what a Zen teacher once told his Western students (I think he was from Japan) "The most difficult thing for Westerners to do is sit still and quiet and 'do' nothing !"
"Two friends meet on the street. One asks the other: "Hi, how are you?" The other ones replies: "I'm fine, thanks." "And how's your son? Is he still unemployed?" "Yes, he is. But he is meditating now." "Meditating? What's that?" "I don’t know. But it's better than sitting around and do nothing!"
Metta Shoshin .
..
People preparing for battle and the typical logic that drives them.
The uphill struggle is within people.
Please sir can I find truth, the cessation of suffering by another method? No.
You either do the work or engage in play Dharma.
You either tame the mind or let it spout. :wave: .
Portable cushion anyone?
Hi everyone, thanks for your comments. I guess I should have said originally that teachers of the Dharma--and especially meditation--have an uphill battle, rather than "Buddhism" (which is not a sentient being!) Also, keep in mind that the Buddha didn't have to teach the Dharma to anyone; he could have enjoyed enlightenment all by himself. But once he chose to share his insights with others, he must have been aware that it would be a difficult struggle against overwhelming ignorance. Hence my terminology "uphill battle." But that's just my own take on this.
Well, people came to him to learn, he did not evangelize, so.... I think it is other than a difficult struggle, it is simply that Buddhism is not accepted by all because many are not ready for it.
I don't think it's possible to "enjoy enlightenment all by himself". Like fleeing a burning building, you are forever haunted by those you left behind.
They don't know what they're missing.
Kia Ora,
Nothing ? .
..
Metta Shoshin .:) ..
I have experiences with both psychedelics and meditation
If I'm being honest some of my 6 hour mushroom trips taught me more than 6 months of meditation.
However, the thing is that a psychedelic experience is illusory. So while you can definitely learn very important things about yourself and your mind, a lot of it is crap or simply mental masturbation as well. Integrating such an experience is key and that can take just as long.
I actually took shrooms last saturday and my entire childhood memories resurfaced and it felt like I knew what it was like to be a kid again. Total non-attachment, wonder and awe of everything I saw, and an innocence I forgot I had. The past week felt like a huge weight was off my shoulders and I never felt happier.
I really value these compounds a lot and IMO they have their place for spiritual purposes BUT it's hard to give any direction to what they will show you or do to you. Meditation is much more efficient and trustworthy when it comes to actual enlightenment or awakening I guess.
They have NO place fr spiritual purposes, insofar as they provide relatively temporary relief, and very often have negative attributes, either as physical or psychological side effects.
Not to be encouraged, if considering a short-cut method to meditative states or the quest for Enlightenment'.
When you can meditate and experience heightened states of awareness without any support or aid - then, you're talking.......
I bet if they did this experiment in 600BC, they would probably get similar results, LOL
An "uphill battle?" What is at the top that we are fighting for?
As a replacement for another religion, it may be under attack, but many Buddhist beliefs are garnering considerable acceptance in the mental health field. Researchers such as Kristin Neff, Chris Germer, Paul Gilbert have put Buddhist thought to the test in their research, and they have demonstrated considerable success.
As these concepts are researched, they have proved to be promising and positive.
One of Ram Dass's commonly told stories was about when his teacher took some acid. He was given the bottle (with several pills, each a single 'hit') and before he could be stopped he swallowed all of them at once (other versions are Halpert gave him 1200mg) . Ram Dass says he sat with his teacher throughout the next couple of days and his teacher just lay there in his usual reclining position and shrugged a few times, said 'yeah, that's about right' but otherwise showed no effect at all. It's a great story whether it's true or not
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'I'm much too chickenshit to even try acid much less ayahuasca or DMT, but I don't see how it is morally wrong, just how terribly unskillful it would be in the hands of . . . well, most people. Shamanism best describes mankind's earliest religious behavior, and funky psychedic brews and fungi are frequently associated. Apparently we have THC receptors in our brains, are born with them, and that includes DMT. It's easy enough to google, for what it's worth. For me it's just more evidence this existence is awesome and what we think makes it good or bad to extent of our ignorance or wisdom.
If you are one of those people . . . then the mountain is before you. If you have started a practice, in one sense there is no longer a mountain, you are on top of it . . . or at least beginning the climb out of samsaric delusions . . .
Most people are caught up in the . . . distraction of shucks and shocks . . . inertia of earthly existence . . .
Know where you are.
I disagree, these experiences can be quite illuminating and inspiring, a taste of the possibilities.
Yes. However the discernment needs to be in place. By people's reaction, whatever they say, they want their practice or teachers to be endowed with fairy dust . . .
This is the danger, can we stop our jaw from thudding to the ground at some trivial phenomena, yet inattentive to the wonders constantly around us . . .