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Does this mean I am a closet Catholic?

zenguitarzenguitar Bad BuddhistNew England Veteran

Greetings, perspicacious Sangha. Here is something that bugs me, though it may sound silly. Though I consider myself to be Buddhist now, I was raised as a Catholic, and although I left the religion ages ago, I find myself sometimes being transported into raptures when I hear music composed for the Church (e.g. the Mozart Great Mass or Requiem). Really, when I'm in the mood for it, nothing beats the beauty, passion, drama, and intricacy of this kind of music.

On the other hand, I have heard a fair amount of Buddhist chanting as well, and although it is often quite impressive (especially when done by the Gyuto Monks), I cannot say it really touches me the same way as the Church music.

Does this mean something? Is this just an emotional attachment that will pass with time? Does it mean I can never escape the clutches of my religious upbringing, no matter how hard I try? Or is "something" trying to tell me I should go back to the Church?

I sure hope it's not the latter, because in my mind's eye I can just see a bunch of dour-faced nuns waggling their fingers at me and saying, "We told you so!"

And that would hurt my Buddhist ego a lot.

Comments

  • m m m . . . Buddhist ego listens to Catholic music . . . call dharma police.

    :wave: .

    We are influenced by our cultural context. Few of us, apart from perhaps the Buddha, have been brought up in a closet.

    Emotional responses to Buddhist, Catholic, Islamic or business environments are of potential preference? Enjoy the music . . . unless you think enjoyment is evil or ignorant . . . then what? :) .

    EarthninjazenguitarBuddhadragon
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited August 2014

    @zenguitar said:
    Greetings, perspicacious Sangha. Here is something that bugs me, though it may sound silly. Though I consider myself to be Buddhist now, I was raised as a Catholic, and although I left the religion ages ago, I find myself sometimes being transported into raptures when I hear music composed for the Church (e.g. the Mozart Great Mass or Requiem). Really, when I'm in the mood for it, nothing beats the beauty, passion, drama, and intricacy of this kind of music.

    On the other hand, I have heard a fair amount of Buddhist chanting as well, and although it is often quite impressive (especially when done by the Gyuto Monks), I cannot say it really touches me the same way as the Church music.

    Does this mean something? Is this just an emotional attachment that will pass with time? Does it mean I can never escape the clutches of my religious upbringing, no matter how hard I try? Or is "something" trying to tell me I should go back to the Church?

    I sure hope it's not the latter, because in my mind's eye I can just see a bunch of dour-faced nuns waggling their fingers at me and saying, "We told you so!"

    And that would hurt my Buddhist ego a lot.

    Maybe it means you just like the music. Maybe it means you like what it represents. Maybe it's a conditioned response and brings up pleasant memories from the past. Who knows? Whatever the reason, I agree with @vinlyn: there's nothing wrong with finding wisdom and joy, whatever the source. As I mentioned in another thread, just as Thomas Merton found positive aspects of Buddhism that helped enhance his relation to his own faith, I'm finding them same with regard to Christianity, especially after my recent stay at a Trappist monastery.

    vinlynpersonlobsterzenguitar
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    It seems to me you have some more letting go (if you wish to do so) of your Catholic past. If you are concerned your enjoyment of church music means you are unknowingly really Catholic, that has nothing to do with the music. It only has to do with you.

    I was raised Lutheran, and I "rejected" it more than 20 years ago when I was a teenager. But the process of letting go of some of the negative things I learned (guilt and shame for example, in our particular church) has taken a long time. It's still somewhat a work in progress. But I love, love, love the Christmas season, and I particularly love the lighting of candles on Christmas Eve at the churches and the music on that day. If family events allow, I go to church with my middle son (who also enjoys the music) and just soak in the sense of community and joyful singing. Families together for often the only time all year and there is just such a sense of hope, peace and love on that day. So I go, and I enjoy it. But I don't worry it means I'm somehow REALLY still a Lutheran. It was never my home. I just like to be a tourist once a year :)

    zenguitar
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @zenguitar‌ I can only use my own experience as a help.
    I recently rediscovered Buddhism BUT I don't like to label myself. Labels are useful tools but that's all they are.

    I read about as much as I can and take what I can from sources of wisdom.

    Eg I've recently been reading about shamanism and Druidism. These two have similar links to Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism.

    Do I consider myself a Buddhist? No, I'd say I'm a seeker of truth. Forget labels, just follow where your heart takes you. Trust your instincts and forget the walls of labels. Everything is just sights, sounds, feelings, tastes, smells and thoughts. :)

    SarahTzenguitar
  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran

    I've heard of ex Christians who used to be moved like that by church music who are now moved by secular music (granted, not all secular music). Also the remembrance of community, of everyone gathering and surrendering their individual egos in worship, probably factors in. There are triggers for ecstasy; not all sexual or drug-induced. :D  

  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran

    If ecstasy is really what you're looking for, look into jhanas. Better than sex. Not good to get attached though. I'd just forego looking for ecstasy entirely...

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited August 2014

    @zenguitar, certain 'religious' music makes me cry. Faure's Requiem, Zadok the priest, Jesu Joy of man's desiring, And many Christmas carols also bring a nostalgic lump to the throat. Having been a choir member for 20 years (various choirs, concerts, et al) I would absolutely hate it, if I stopped being moved by music, from whatever source.

    This is Zadok the Priest. It was an anthem used at the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II. Be patient through the advert, then turn the speakers up as far as possible and listen.... and wait. It hits you like a tornado.

    Vastmindzenguitar
  • SarahTSarahT Time ... space ... joy South Coast, UK Veteran
    edited August 2014

    Part of my journey to this site was "The Art of Happiness" which quotes the Dalai Lama as seeing past spiritual experience as helpful to the pursuit of Buddhism, wherever it comes from. I have no plans to desert my Christian upbringing which, contrary to the impression I get from most who post here, was about love, compassion, lightening burdens, mercy.

    I also am moved by Christian music but actually listen more often to Buddhist chants as I have more than enough emotion in my life and seek the discipline of self control right now (as encouraged in 2 Peter 1:6). Not sure how I would get my washing up done without them ...

    And now the ironing ;)

    Earthninja
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited August 2014

    I'm a hardcore atheist......but you give me some good swayin', clappin', church music, and it's on like lunch! hahaha. It fills me with encouragement and reminds me of what's important. I may use different terms...but I know what they're talking about....as far as the message....even if it's metaphoric for me. As some mentioned...it's the cultural and social hug sometimes too.

    Two of my favorites

    Kirk Franklin... I Smile

    The Canton Sprirituals ... It's Gonna Rain

    zenguitarBuddhadragonSarahT
  • No, it means you're a closet music lover. :)

    VastmindzenguitarSarahT
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    EVERYBODY OUT THE CLOSET!!

    Be allegretto con abandono and proud!!

    VastmindzenguitarBuddhadragonSarahT
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    My guru likes old-timey gospel music. He was born in India to a VERY Buddhist family. I'm not sure how he came to like gospel, but not out of some kind of Christian background.

    zenguitar
  • A favorite hymn of mine is Melita by John Bacchus Dykes. Here in the US it is often called the Navy hymn. Very moving.

    zenguitar
  • zenguitarzenguitar Bad Buddhist New England Veteran

    Ok, great, thanks people for your comments and suggestions. Phew, for a minute there, I was worried. :)

  • Rowan1980Rowan1980 Keeper of the Zoo Asheville, NC Veteran

    @SpinyNorman said:
    Me too, but on reflection I decided it's because it's amazing music, rather than some kind of religious attachment. So I reckon you can enjoy it without feeling guilty. ;)

    Same here. I occasionally put on Internet stations that play Gregorian chants simply because, despite having left Catholicism almost two decades ago, I enjoy the music.

    zenguitar
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran

    I love Christmas carols, and some of those old church songs sung acapella are beyond compare! It is amazing music.

    There is a viral YouTube of a year old little girl crooning along with Elvis playing on her father's car stereo. She's old enough to ASK for Elvis, and her facial expressions while 'singing' along are universal and 'adult'.

    The music gets inside like nothing else. What's IN there is not Catholicism or whatever. It is not nameable but universal, in close touch with very deep layers of human experience. Call it the Divine or the Unknowable Mystery or whatever. It is real, and the label on the music does not define the part of us that it reaches :) .

    zenguitar
  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran

    I am an impenitent art lover. I've never been quite fond of sacral music (my Mum adored playing Bach when I was a child and honestly I hated the guy), but love fine arts and architecture.
    Any tour around Europe includes churches and museums with huge collections of religious painting.
    In Christmas, we put up Christmas decorations and listen to Christmas carols, too.
    But I don't see these activities as harming nor entrenching on my religious convictions in any way.
    I can be a Buddhist and love art too.
    Whenever I walk into a church, I pay my due respect, I know what it's all about, appreciate the art, and walk away as Buddhist as I was when I came in.
    Being a Buddhist doesn't mean that you have to brainwash yourself into listening only to Tibetan mantras or being partial only to Asian art.
    Being a Buddhist does not exclude anything. Rather, it integrates everything.

    zenguitarSarahT
  • I am no longer a Christian either but there is nothing that compares in music to Bach and Mozart when speaking of rapturous ecstatic experiences. One need not believe in the Trinity to be in awe of them. Just as one need not be an anti-Semite to love Wagner's Götterdämmerung.

    zenguitar
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited August 2014

    @Simonthepilgrim said:
    Religions have music but music has no religion.

    m m m . . .

    Is the contemporary cult worship of musicians all too evident, or did I miss something?

    I would suggest that music and other art forms may on occasion, in certain ways, be conducive to express and convey experiences that defy, complement, transcend and by pass conventional modes of conveying or transferring religious experience . . .
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_music

  • Music has no religion. People may, however, 'impose' religion upon it for their own purposes.

    mmo
  • MarcelleMarcelle New
    edited August 2014

    I was also raised in a very strict Catholic home and had my share of difficulty letting that part of my past go. Honestly I still have occasions when Catholic guilt creeps in.
    But thankfully not around music!

    I was also raised in a musical family where singing together was how we communicated and resolved conflict on many occasions.

    When I was younger I had trouble allowing myself the freedom to explore other kinds of music apart from what my parent's taught me.

    My world is much richer now that I can listen to any kind of music without the accompanying guilt.

    Even the Catholic music!

    I am partial to polyphonic expressions with no musical instruments accompanying the singers. Which is probably why I love hearing the monks chant together, especially the
    Kananiya Metta Sutta.

    Here is a really powerful rendition of Palestrina's Adoramus Te done by a group of talented young men:

  • @betaboy said:
    Music has no religion.

    Again to the beat . . .

    I would suggest there is a rhythm, a transcendent chord, a pattern that flows freely, free at times of sound itself. That space between notes can at times be approximated in music.

    Perhaps religion is music . . . of a sort . . .

    :wave: .

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @zenguitar said:
    Ok, great, thanks people for your comments and suggestions. Phew, for a minute there, I was worried. :)

    Yes, it can be a bit worrying. And they say "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic".. ;)

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Who's "they"...? :scratch: . :p .

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @federica said:
    Who's "they"...? :scratch: . :p .

    Priests and nuns mainly. :p

    lobster
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Oh...Yeah..... those 'they'...... :D .

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