Do one's “thoughts” hold one's Buddha~Nature to ransom ?
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
Kia Ora Kind Thoughts,
Neitzsche once said something along the lines of “There is no Thinker behind the thought…Thought itself is the thinker !”…
Sadly Neitzsche’s Thoughts (even though on the right track/path) got the better of him, causing a “Mental Awareness Disorder” drove the poor sod MAD …
One only knows that one is thinking when one starts thinking about thinking, (even then it is not quite black and white) and when not thinking about thinking, more often than not one does not know that one is thinking…
"I am just a thought who thinks I am thinking I am just a thought!"
Could it be that the humble “Thought” holds the key to a successful transition from worldly nature to Buddha Nature (holding it to ransom so to speak) ?
Thoughtfulness and thoughtlessness are (so it would seem) two sides of the Dharma coin…You can't have one without the other...
When Priest Yaoshan was sitting in meditation a monk asked “What do you think about, sitting, in steadfast composure ?” Yaoshan said “I think not thinking” The monk said “How do you think not thinking?” Yaoshan said “Non thinking”
A penny for your thoughts….
(Just some rambling thoughts at work…)
Metta Shoshin . 
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Comments
I guess in meditation we notice the space between the thoughts, then eventually the mind settles and the thoughts gradually become more subtle until they disappear altogether - which is nice.
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But is that silence Buddha Nature? I don't know. What exactly is Buddha Nature? :rolleyes: .
Can there be a worldly nature apart from Buddha Nature? From Mahayana perspective, there is no Samsara apart from Nirvana and no Nirvana apart from Samsara. When Samsara exists, then Nirvana comes into existence. When Samsara does not exist, Nirvana does not exist too. So the occurance of a thought at the moment of its occurance is in itself cannot be traced and when the thought has occurred, then another thought can think about it, but that second thought will be in itself a new thought. The occurance of a thought needs a luminious mind or Buddha nature to begin with, but the act of finding meaning in the thought obscures the Buddha nature into a worldly nature, but still all these happen in their own moments, which Dogen taught are their own time-beings.
Hold for ransom? They're lucky to get a passing hug.
They may obscure it like a cloud obscures the sky but they can't hide it for long if I'm mindful.
I pay attention to my thoughts, examine them and let them pass on their way.
They're lucky to get a passing hug.
Poor thoughts! They just want a bit of attention really.
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Well, I may be giving my self too much credit there... I can be a sucker for a pretty thought if it's shiny enough.
@Shoshin
The only limit any of us have to identifying with any form, sensation, thought, activity or consciousness....is how much suffering we are willing to keep encouraging.
For a Buddhist practitioner, such an identification simply describes our resistance to walking the path towards sufferings cessation.
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And asking if " BuddhaNature is held for ransom by thoughts" is like asking
if a lotus blossom is held ransom by the mud surrounding it's roots.
I wasn't sure what "Buddha-nature" was so I looked it up on Wiki, and then sort of wished I hadn't!
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature
I had an idea it was the potential for enlightenment that everyone has, but now I'm not sure.
You lost me, OP. :crazy: . I think that "calm abiding", or the absence of thoughts, is not, itself, Buddhanature; but it opens the door to the realization of the Buddha within us. Does the busy mind obscure our Buddhanature? Most definitely. That's why meditation practice--calming the mind--is crucial to the realization of Buddhahood.
I hope this answers your question. I have no idea, lol! :dunce: .
I emphatically understand your wish! Things are hard enough without all the different usages, aren't they?
thoughts are just thoughts. they only have as much authority as you give them
The Buddha nature is spacious, clear, and engaged in finely arranged structures. It is emptiness itself.
Thoughts are like everything else right. Just an experience.
Our belief is what gives them power. Don't believe in them and they float away.
The key for me is to stay aware and separate myself from thought. Then it is powerless.
My thoughts are very important to me. It's how we manage everything in our lives.
The best I can do is to try to stop them when they are getting goofy and get redirected to things that are happening now. Or focused on a plan for future activities.
If I'm tired or getting burned out from work, I need to pay extra attention to not letting negative thoughts get the better of me. Or worse, start coming out of my mouth.
Close.
It means that all sentient beings possess the potential to become Buddhas. Right from the wiki. This is important. It goes beyond Enlightenment or the capacity to become enlightened. It's Buddhahood. An Arhant is enlightened, but not a Buddha. An Arhant doesn't turn the Wheel of Dharma. Much of the Vajrayana is based on this notion of Buddha Nature. A vehicle to Buddhahood.
There's more to it than that, of course, but I thought it was worth sharing.
There is a reason for the saying mindfulness is the path to the deathless - the mindful do not die but the mindless is as if dead.
I guess Neitzsche’s thoughts got the better of him because he just wasn't mindful enough. He "forgot" that thoughts are "anicca, dukkha, anatta" and began indulging in them. How else would he have gone "mad"?
Watch those thoughts come and go. Leave them thoughts alone and heave a sigh of relief - "Phew, just dodged another bullet."
Kia Ora,
Thank you all for your 'thoughts'... It would seem that your responses are all thoughtless (take this as a "Buddhist" compliment .
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From what I gather the creation of karma tends to follow the path of "Thought" > "Word" > "Deed" ...So thought is in a sense the determining factor in whether or not the action produces wholesome or unwholesome results, and the run of the mill desirous thoughts like "I want...I like...I must have...etc etc are seen as unwholesome because they will eventually end in some form of suffering...It's these type of thoughts that 'could' hold ones BuddhaNature hostage....
"Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states.
Mind is chief: mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox !"
"Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states.
Mind is chief: mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, because of that, happiness follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves !"
The Dhammapada
Again "I" could be wrong...But it's just a thought exploring possibilities........(So don't blame the messenger .
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Metta Shoshin .
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So how does one become a Buddha? Do they influence their thoughts so they are better and better thoughts? If that is the case then how do we control our thoughts? Or can we control our thoughts?
I think the Buddha taught that we are not our thoughts. How could we be our thoughts if we cannot control the thoughts? (here i feel that we do not have control)
Kia Ora @Jeffery,
It's not so much about 'controlling' ones thoughts it's more so not becoming attached to them...
Metta Shoshin .
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Yes I agree!
There is intention(kamma), then thought (ie. internal and external speech) and then action.
Just a correction - Not all thoughts are "bad". Some thoughts actually lead to the end of suffering! 4 NT, N8FP, DO, generosity, virtue etc.
I believe anyone can learn then realise how to control their emotions feelings & thoughts, but it takes months of practice, working out, trial & error, before fully realising..If you learn how to mindfully do everyday stuff you will see your thoughts get less & less, it's as you see that that you start to find the gist of how to do it..Just as you can clear your mind through meditation, which should be proof enough to the individual who's meditating that their doing it/clearing it..It is possible with a shed load of practice to walk about in that state, for long lengths of time with a completely clear mind mindfully aware/seeing or doing but not processing..It doesn't make a person a Buddha it just makes them aware of their real self, & then the realisation moments start coming..I'm pretty sure we're not our thoughts, but our thoughts are our actual thoughts. :-)
Mindfulness. You observe (not only in meditation, but going about your day), and if you find yourself having unhealthy or unskillful thoughts, you change them. We do have a choice over what we think, but it's easy to forget that.
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@Daveadams your thoughts are not your own. They have no owner
You appear to have control but that's part of the illusion. If your thoughts were your thoughts you could stop them at will.
Our true self has been given analogies as being the sky, thoughts are like clouds?
Does the sky control the clouds? The clouds just do their own thing in the emptiness that is the sky.
We have the choice to give power to the thoughts yes, but we don't think them.
Try and stop thought. There is a clear sign we are not the thinker
just a witness.
Don't get me wrong, I'm in the same boat as most of us.
If we hadn't discovered Buddhism, would we be here at this forum? It's all dominoes, and we may not understand how it's all connected... but it is. Thoughts arising are no different than pain, but pain does "cause" other effects, just like those thoughts. In the end we may only be watching while things happen on their own, but something is still happening. Recognition of that is part of the process.
Agreed, it's the awareness that stops the subconscious reactions from taking place. Whether it be pain or thoughts. You don't have to suffer either. But sadly most of us still do
@Earthninja I wouldn't put it all on awareness though. You have empty mind-stuff going on, the awareness that's always present, and recognition of the nature of mind & mind-stuff (emptiness), all working together to change habits/patterns and "unwind the mind". That's the knife cutting through the emptiness in the present moment. My half cent anyway.
Though I'm pretty sure that's what you meant.
The sky and the clouds are not the same and they are not different. The sky does not control the clouds, but without the sky there are no clouds. Just as if there were no earth there would be no clouds, or sky. Clouds do not act independently of the sky.
I guess it's obvious, but without someone to experience thoughts they don't happen. If the witness cannot think about its self would it be a self?
The witness has no more inherent existence than the thoughts.
Classic overthinking all around.
@how used a useful word,
'identity' - we all have it but do we identify and cling to it?
There is a difference between the manifest and real Buddha Nature, which in its purest form is the same in all of us.
In a sense the enlightened (who can identify themselves) are of one mind but many manifestations.
Have we realised our mind is completely useless? That of course does not make us thoughtless, non existent (you will need a touch of deathly Paranirvana for that) or empty dharma bots.
For good reason those operating in and from the enlightened mind do not usually identify their status. Why? Maybe because the monkey minded (mentioning no sangha or identifying no spotless perfected ones) are prone to identify with delusions around this empty form . . .
@AldrisTorvalds yes that is what I meant, not just awareness.
I never said clouds act independently of the sky? I said they act of their own accord(conditioning) just like the thoughts. I agree with everything you said.
My only real point was thoughts have no owner. No thinker of the thoughts.
I use the witness as a "self" to imply who we realty are. Not as noun.
I don't believe the witness can think about itself. The thoughts take place within it. Just like everything else.
Good thoughts are the raft, naughty thoughts are eating so many cream cakes that the raft begins to sink.
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Well, it is a discussion forum.
Kia Ora,
In the past (before somebody kindly turned on the light) I would often get lost in thought, they would drag "me" whenever and wherever they wanted to go, (one could say I was a slave to my thoughts)..
What I thought, was how it was, and I was in no position to argue with the thoughts that would arise due to the activity of the senses that were picking up data left right and centre...It was as if the five aggregates were having a field day at my expense... .
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"Thoughts" They can obstruct, disrupt or construct.... They are a very useful tool if used/trained properly...I guess one could say it's all about the "Right Thought"
Metta Shoshin .
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is no greed, no hate, no delusion
and
it brings Right Speech, Right Deed
which fulfills Ten skllful ways (dasa kusal)
which means
Three factors in Noble Eightfold Path
Kia Ora,
"The thought manifests as words, the word manifests as deeds, the deed develop into habit and habit hardens into character, so watch the thought and its ways with care and let it spring from love born out of concern for all living beings!"
Metta Shoshin .
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@Dakini, I think the control we have is somewhere in between. We can't have no control because we can deliberately think about something. For example if you think about things that are cheery you might feel better. But you don't have total control of thoughts. An example of that is someone in major depression. They can't just choose to be happy. In my opinion having no control is a little closer to the reality than having total control. In other words I don't think that we have too much control of what arises in mind.
if one does not have the Right view (worldling) then there is no control,
if one completed practice with Right view (Arahant) then there is total control
it depends on where 'we' stands, worldling (pruthajjana), one with Right view (sekha) or Arahnt (aseka)
I think it depends. It depends on the nature of the depression (I've staved off depression when going through a tough chronic illness by using Buddhist psychology), or the chemical balance in the brain. But I suspect it may be possible to affect the chemistry in a positive way, but again, this would depend on the condition. I don't mean to be facile and dismissive about this, but I do think it would be a good experiment to try. And yes, stuff "arises" in the brain, but usually we have some choice as to whether to go with it, or turn away from it.
I think this is a good field for practice and for scientific research. There's more evidence coming out that "mind" can affect the brain. Consciousness and how we direct it can have a physical affect on the brain. But I wouldn't want to say that categorically, as if all it takes to overcome serious mental illness is meditation and mindfulness.
Earthninja i don't have to try to stop a thought, because i don't think unless i want to think..I don't give my self any negative thoughts whatsoever, & never feel unexpected unwanted negative emotions or feelings..No one can possibly affect me emotionally by their words or actions, because i did the training & have realised how to control my self & realised my real self..Now you've never met me or done the training, but can say for sure it's not possible to do..You will never ever realise it is possible until you do what your supposed to do, which is to take the middle way with any advice & look into it yourself..Now as the training is to help a person gain full control of their mind, their not supposed to use their mind whilst training..So like Dakini says you learn how to mindfully see, which should progress into being able to mindfully do everyday stuff.
@upekka @Dakini
I don't agree. I don't think we control how we think. We have the realization of dukkha which is one of the three marks of conditioned existence.. If you think you have control of your thoughts then you must be enlightened because you would never (choose to) experience dukkha.
There are onion levels, and sparks of hilarity. "Who".
as i said in earlier post it depends on where we stand
if so, and if only we are mindful about that, at that time we can control our thought
spot on
Practicing mindfulness of our thoughts takes practice. It's an acquired skill. You build that skill over time, as with staying focussed during meditation. It's a component in the path towards Enlightenment, as is the ability to maintain calm abiding, to glimpse the Buddha within. These are tools. With practice, we can get better at using the tools, our coordination increases. If we set that as our goal, and are diligent.
That's my understanding, anyway.
@Dakini, So in the development of mindfulness of thoughts one eventually develops control over their thoughts? I feel that we don't control thoughts but we become skilled at accepting whatever arises. So the development comes from NOT controlling rather than by controlling. My approach is fundamentally different because I am NOT trying to control. Any thought can arise and 'it is what it is'.
Well, in meditation, that's what we do. We watch thoughts arise and pass. Then we bring focus back to the breath.(Which is also a form of exerting control.) But when we're going about the general business of living, we can notice ourselves entertaining unpleasant or unwholesome or unskillful thoughts. Or we can notice a tendency to fixate on certain things. Or we can notice depressive thoughts. It's at times like that that we can make a choice whether to allow the rumination continue, or to change our thoughts, and get on a healthier or more constructive track.
Thoughts arise. It doesn't mean we have to cling to them and feed them, if they're not helpful. On the other hand, just to avoid any misunderstanding, I'm not saying that if grief and mourning come up that we should stifle that. We should let natural processes take their course. I'm talking about more mundane things, like hatred, wishes for vengeance, negative thoughts or beliefs about ourselves, jealousy, and that sort of thing. "Right thought" is part of the package, along with "right speech", "right livelihood", and all the rest, isn't it?
@Dakini, Yes I agree we work with our thoughts. As you say we note if there is rumination. But strictly speaking there is no need to make the rumination go away! We can just let it be there and smile to it.
@Dakini, There is no 'right thought' in the 8 fold path.
@Jeffrey "Right Intention" is sometimes translated as "Right Thought". Semantics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path#Right_intention
haha! Well, now the discussion is getting interesting! I did a very quick check (I'll have to study this in more detail later), and here's what came up (from Wiki):
Right mindfulness
Main article: Mindfulness (Buddhism)
Right mindfulness (samyak-smṛti / sammā-sati), also translated as "right memory", "right awareness" or "right attention". Here, practitioners should constantly keep their minds alert to phenomena that affect the body and mind. They should be mindful and deliberate, making sure not to act or speak due to inattention or forgetfulness. In the Pali Canon, it is explained thus:
And what, monks, is right mindfulness?
(i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in and of itself—ardent, aware, and mindful—putting away greed and distress with reference to the world.
(ii) He remains focused on feelings in and of themselves—ardent, aware, and mindful—putting away greed and distress with reference to the world.
(iii) He remains focused on the mind in and of itself—ardent, aware, and mindful—putting away greed and distress with reference to the world.
(iv) He remains focused on mental qualities (dhammesu) in and of themselves—ardent, aware, and mindful—putting away greed and distress with reference to the world.
This, monks, is called right mindfulness.
:scratch: .
So the Buddha says to remain mindful of feelings, the mind, and mental qualities, and to "put away greed and distress".
So, maybe I take it too far in my interpretation and practice, but it sounds to me like the purpose of mindfulness is, in part, to cultivate skillful thoughts and positivity, and to counter negativity with more wholesome thoughts. To notice when we have mental habits that don't serve us well, and to work to replace those with healthy habits.
That's how I take it.
I would also say that thought precedes action. Thought gives rise to action. So in order to practice right action, we need to also practice right thought, or at the very least, right motivation, which is part of the Eightfold Path. Right motivation comes from compassionate thought or feeling.
So I see thought as being at the beginning of a chain reaction that leads to action. So we do need to be mindful of our thoughts, and strive to "put away greed and distress" and other samsaric thoughts, to make room for thoughts that will be more karmically fruitful, and a healthier state of mind in which the dharma can grow deep roots.
My 2 cents.
Yes we can replace unskillful with skillful. That along with trying to cause 'good' arisings and preventing 'bad'. So there are four things. Cultivate good and make them try to stay. Prevent bad and make it go away.
Yes that is mindfulness. I was taught that mindfulness is determining what is helpful and what is not helpful.
But I wouldn't extend that to the existence of 'wrong thoughts' and 'right thoughts' because that type of thinking 'tightens the fist' rather than 'loosening the fist'.
Those four things you quoted are mindfulness in Buddhism.
hm. ok. Food for--ha--thought. :thumbsup: .