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Do one's “thoughts” hold one's Buddha~Nature to ransom ?
@Earthninja said:
I never chose either of those. I chose to be aware only. When I witnessed this I was sure I am no thought.
From theoretical understanding of ultimate reality, agreed that it is just emptiness with empty phenomena rolling on. But till the ultimate reality is directly experienced, till that point there will be a 'you' in you who is being aware of thoughts. Moreover, till that time, just by being aware, how will you function in Samsara? Even to get up from the bed in the morning, you have to choose whether you want to get up or not, which are also thoughts and you choose to act on a thought. So till that time the ultimate reality is not directly experienced, till then living in conventional reality with having discretion between skillful and unskillful seems like a skillful idea. So till that time, even though we do not have full control over our thoughts, we can exercise some control over the choice of thoughts we want to indulge in, by discerning which thought is skillful and which thought is unskillful and acting accordingly to at least not to further increase our suffering due to performing of unskillful acts.
I don't think it's about suppression, it's more like a decision not to indulge unskillful thoughts. In the suttas it's referred to as inappropriate attention, ie dwelling on and "feeding" the unskillful thoughts. So there is a choice based on clear comprehension.
This is exactly what it is. It's a decision to not attach to unskillful thoughts. So it's a practice in non-attachment, as well as right mindfulness. We have a choice regarding which thoughts to entertain, and which to let go. The more we practice and apply the dharma to our everyday decisions, the more we'll train ourselves to make wholesome choices, and kleshas will fall away over time. We'll become happier people.
The only limit any of us have to identifying with any form, sensation, thought, activity or consciousness....is how much suffering we are willing to keep encouraging.
For a Buddhist practitioner, such an identification simply describes our resistance to walking the path towards sufferings cessation.
.............
And asking if " BuddhaNature is held for ransom by thoughts" is like asking
if a lotus blossom is held ransom by the mud surrounding it's roots.
What is it that stops a person from expressing ones BuddhaNature, or “knowing” that there is such an experience to be had ?
Bearing in ‘mind’ for the most part Mr & Mrs Joe Average (those who live in ignorance-Ignorance in how a Buddhist would use the term=Not “knowing”), live in a ‘conventional’ world/reality, where thoughts are in control, dominating their daily lives, dragging them into a world created by "wants and desires"…
The terms “Ransom” & “Hostage” might be just play on words, but the way I see it, (“I” being the convenient analytic device) when it comes to BuddhaNature, a person’s 'unskilful' thought patterns are what’s keeping them ‘in the dark’ so to speak… ‘Slowing’ down the progress of the lotus blossom rising up out of the mud…
In saying all this, it’s also possible I’m not expressing my self in a way that is clear and precise…My vocabulary is often lacking when it comes to expressing what is on my ‘mind’ -It's like I "know" what it's about, but can't find suitable words to explain it without contradicting/compromising my 'self' in some way... (BTW This is my excuse and I'm sticking to it...) . ..
I would like to thank you all for your "thoughts" that have created more 'food for 'skilful' thought' which in a sense is what this thread is all about...
The terms “Ransom” & “Hostage” might be just play on words, but the way I see it, (“I” being the convenient analytic device) when it comes to BuddhaNature, a person’s 'unskilful' thought patterns are what’s keeping them ‘in the dark’ so to speak… ‘Slowing’ down the progress of the lotus blossom rising up out of the mud…
Metta Shoshin . ..
But you're right on! :thumbsup: . This is exactly what the Buddha taught. "Practice" is a process of gradually reaching clarity (vs. obscurity), sometimes described as "clear light". And of course, we're active agents in bringing about that change, it doesn't just happen on its own. Mindfulness (including mindfulness of our tendency to grasp at "self"), diligence, cultivating compassion and an open heart (including compassion towards ourselves), and developing "virtue" (including wholesome thoughts) via observing the precepts, is what pulls back the curtain of obscurity, revealing the clear light of Buddhanature.
Easier said than done, though. But we have a whole lifetime or more to achieve this. :ninja: .
@Jeffrey said:
He knew that he had created bad karma.
Right. Tradition holds that after exacting his revenge, Mila realized the karmic burden his actions gave rise to and sought out a Guru, Marpa, to teach him how to purify that karma, which, with Marpa's instruction he was able to do in that one lifetime.
@Dakini said:
We can choose to physically alter our brain, which is what years of steady meditation practice does, just like we can choose to physically alter our bodies by going to the gym, and developing a discipline, following a physical regime and a healthy diet. We're potentially in the driver's seat of our body-mind more than we realize. Practicing the dharma is a conscious choice we make to realize that potential, and learn to skillfully drive the vehicle of our body-mind.
So you can control some aspects of your body, why not all of it?
Do you know how you grow your bones? Your doing all of these amazing things and yet you don't know how it's done.
It's doing it by itself. Yes there is some appearance of control. How can you be your body and only control part of it?
Like a driver if a vehicle you used.
When the car crashes you suffer, because you see the car as yours right?
What if the car drives itself and you are just watching it from the sideline. Then if the car crashes you won't suffer.
@Earthninja said:
o you can control some aspects of your body, why not all of it?
Do you know how you grow your bones? Your doing all of these amazing things and yet you don't know how it's done.
It's doing it by itself. Yes there is some appearance of control. How can you be your body and only control part of it?
Like a driver if a vehicle you used.
When the car crashes you suffer, because you see the car as yours right?
What if the car drives itself and you are just watching it from the sideline. Then if the car crashes you won't suffer.
But the body is the vehicle through which our consciousness operates. (Be careful not to identify with the vehicle.) If the vehicle crashes, and we're inside, we most likely will experience pain. And if the vehicle crashes, we still need insurance to patch the vehicle back up, not to mention anyone else involved in the accident, who might also suffer from our lack of mindful driving.
With gradual clearing of obscurations, fewer crashes.
Ninja, what brought you to Buddhism? What do you hope to achieve by choosing to walk the Buddhist path?
Also say when I type my mind is telling me "I am pushing the keys" "I am using my hands" but the actual yogic meditative experience is more wondrous than the mundane.
If anyone is familiar with Jon Kabatt Zin (or wants to google) he does a teaching very early in his mindfulness based stress reduction class. He has each person eat a raisin very slowly and at each part: anticipation, vision of all the texture, feeling in the hand, release of saliva, movement of tongue...
All of that is very immediate and we can catch how the experience is not so hum drum. Me sitting in a chair is quite wondrous. All the sensations in my buttocks and ankles. The weight of my upper body resting on my forearms as they deftly type the keys. How do I know how to type the letters? Indeed how do I make a sentence. I don't think of the sentence and then say it. I do it on the fly. How do we do this? It's not so hum drum. It is shunyata.
You can be aware and still function, zen emphasises this.
You don't have to choose anything. It happens by itself.
If I thought comes up to walk infront of a car, I know not to. I don't have to have a sub vocal debate and think I chose not to.
It does still happen yes, but I'm sure I'm not waiting until I see ultimate reality as you put it.
We are already in ultimate reality. I'm going to try keep observing the illusion.
If you think you make choices and are an entity inside the body that is fine. That's how it feels for me to.
I've seen this isn't really true. So I'm going to do my best to get rid of this idea.
Choices are made yes, I'm just refuting the idea that YOU control them.
Emptiness isn't something to find, we are already here. Witnessing it. It's just hard to see through the smoke and mirrors
I'm not trying to sell you anything. My only suggestion is just observe yourself make a choice.
You will see a distance between yourself and the choice. Then you will know.
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
edited September 2014
@Earthninja said: You don't have to choose anything. It happens by itself.
That's my experience. Even when choice is redirected, decisions changed, I feel like they're just happening. My decisions are as empty as my thoughts! I haven't gotten better at choosing, only more aware... and the quality of the choosing has changed gradually as a result of increased awareness. There's nothing else going on.
True, @Jeffrey. (What a nice couple of meditations you've suggested!) When our observer notes that things are going well, there's no cause for concern. The Buddha taught how to eliminate suffering, so when we notice some chronic state of dis-ease or stress, moodiness, a tendency towards the "defilements" of hate, jealousy, greed, etc., or a pattern of the same type of problems recurring over and over, that's when we can bring our dharma skills to bear on the situation, to pull ourselves out of the rut and liberate ourselves from that particular type of suffering.
And we can also appreciate when things are going well, as a way of practicing equanimity. I love that part about noticing how we sit in a chair, reading, or typing! Notice the sun lighting up the room, and maybe warming our bodies subtly. Notice the clicking of the keyboard. Our posture. The softness of the chair, as it supports us. The warmth and flavor of the cup of tea by our side, if we have one. And so on. Very cool! Rushing through the world without mindfulness, we can miss out on so many moments of contentment. Noticing those moments also helps train the mind to recognize contentment and build equanimity. It gets us closer to the eventual goal :om: .
"Do "nothing" and (in a very subtle way), awareness will work at prying the thoughts apart-
Exposing the empty space within (and without) of ones pure and unpolluted heart!"
We are all speaking from inside the dream. We have no choice. There is no way to step outside and and be inside at the same time.
We can talk about how we arrange our lives in a more Buddhist way. Or how we start our day. Or how meditation is working for us. About choices we make, and how they affect our lives. And they do. With greater power as time goes by and experience is gained.
You seem to be saying that you have no control over the outcome of your choices. Which flys in the face of Buddhist teachings.
When we talk and act it is in the relative world. In my view, that is where all progress is made.
Ask Jayanatha how many choices it took before he arrived at his decision to ordain.
In his Mulamadhyamakakarika, Nagarjuna explains emptiness without once taking a position or asserting anything. It's the only way to get at it. All concepts must be put aside.
Don't get me wrong. I'm certainly not denying that you have insight into emptiness. How could I?
I'm saying that when you try to pin it down with words and concepts, it slips away.
The other day I was doing a spot of Lucid dreaming. Normally when this happens I get excited and wake myself up. The difference between normal dreaming and more aware or lucid dreaming is it has more in common with being conscious or awake.
In a similar way we can talk about and in a way that is closer to awakening. We can also create conditions in which we question or become aware of the dream state. For this we have meditation. That is why I and others stress its importance. We are on the right track . . .
:om: .
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
edited September 2014
Why wake yourself up if you're having a lucid dream? In my limited experience, that's the point at which you have complete control of the dream. Oh or did you mean you woke up accidentally because you were too excited? Gee I wonder what could've excited you so much in a lucid dream... or who... The ones I've had did "stop" by themselves before I could do much, but I don't think I woke immediately up. One I got to fly, the other I was doing something else, coughcough. I may have had others that I don't quite recall.
The other day I was doing a spot of Lucid dreaming. Normally when this happens I get excited and wake myself up. The difference between normal dreaming and more aware or lucid dreaming is it has more in common with being conscious or awake.
When you have those kind of dreams, does 'thinking' take place in them ?
Or is the dream itself just a thought pattern brought to life in a vivid technicolour experience?
I also have lucid dreams(most of which are about flying) the last one that stands out was when I was a bird (an eagle, hawk or vulture, I was a big bird with a big wingspan) flying over desert sand dunes, but did any thinking on the part of the bird (whose body I took over) take place during this experience/adventure ??? That I can't remember...
A Bodhisattva is an "Enlighten Being" Tis the mind that's enlighten and the body is just [the] being....for the time being....
Metta Shoshin . ..
Shoshin, by body I was thinking of relative truth. And the deathless is absolute truth. The body dies.
"No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object;
No Realm of the Eye,
Until We Come to No realm of Consciousness."
[ Commentary on above text ]
"No ignorance and Also No Ending of Ignorance,
Until We Come to No Old Age and Death and
No Ending of Old Age and Death."
[ Commentary on above text ]
"Also, There is No Truth of Suffering,
Of the Cause of Suffering,
Of the Cessation of Suffering, Nor of the Path."
[ Commentary on above text ]
"There is No Wisdom, and There is No Attainment Whatsoever."
[ Commentary on above text ]
"Because There is Nothing to Be Attained,
The Bodhisattva Relying On Prajna Paramita Has
No Obstruction in His Mind."
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
The last time I remember thinking during a lucid dream I also had a quick laugh that woke me up. The thought was "Why would I bother dreaming that I got a new coffee table?"
I was just playing with breaking down the word/term "Bodhisattva" Bodhi =Awaken/Enlighten and Sattva=Being (like human being)...Hence "the body is just [the] being....for the time being".... ( until aging and decay returns it to whence it came-ready for recycling)
I also have lucid dreams(most of which are about flying) the last one that stands out was >when I was a bird (an eagle, hawk or vulture, I was a big bird with a big wingspan) flying over desert sand dunes, but did any thinking on the part of the bird (whose body I >took over) take place during this experience/adventure ??? That I can't remember...
Metta Shoshin . ..
Are you sure those are dreams, and not astral travel? :ninja: .
@Dakini said:
Are you sure those are dreams, and not astral travel? :ninja: .
Kia Ora,
I'm not too sure...You could well be right......Maybe it was a cross over type dream and when astral travelling I started daydreaming whilst cruising at 500 feets over the desert sands..
In another lucid flying dream (I always seem to be flying in those types of dreams) to test I was dreaming I flew straight at a building and flew right through it.... "Form is Emptiness.... Emptiness is Form"
Mind travel is such a wondrous experience... . :wow: ..
(I always seem to be flying in those types of dreams)
Metta Shoshin . ..
That's why I thought they might be actual astral travel. Do you ever go to see friends, or travel to other parts of the world to see what's going on, or to visit beautiful landscapes? You were flying over the desert? What desert? Australia?
It's possible the desert was somewhere in Africa or the Middle east, I remember seeing some old sand stone buildings...Who knows...I might have entered the body of a falcon owned by an Arabian prince...
No I don't recall seeing people I know and for the most part I don't plan the trips...It's like a magical mystery tour...(and no I'm not talking about acid trips or flashbacks)
@Earthninja said:
You can be aware and still function, zen emphasises this.
You don't have to choose anything. It happens by itself.
It happens by itself after realization, but till the realization has not happened and the mind is still covered by defilements, till that stage we have to choose what we want to do. Remember Buddha's teaching regarding intention and then intention leads to action (or karma) and consequently its results. Till the time we are not awakened, we are the owner of our actions and so we will bear the results of our actions. Good actions lead to good results and bad actions lead to bad results.
Choices are made yes, I'm just refuting the idea that YOU control them.
There is a 'you' in you till you directly experience the ultimate reality. So till that stage, you will have to bear the effect of your causal actions, so it shall be better if you take responsibility for your choices or intentions and choose which is a skillful intention and which is an unskillful intention and so act skillfully.
Metta to you and all sentient beings.
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
@misemisc1 "I am a Hindu": okay let's all listen to that, lol!
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I find it hard to swallow that the actions of a Buddha creates no karma because that seems to imply they have no consequence.
@ourself said:
I find it hard to swallow that the actions of a Buddha creates no karma because that seems to imply they have no consequence.
As far as my theoretical understanding goes, since a Buddha or any awakened person will have no sense of 'I' in him, so the actions performed by him will not be performed with the idea that the Buddha (as a doer) is doing those actions, rather the actions performed will be with the idea that the existing conditions enabled the causal condition for the happening of that action by the body of the Buddha, so the sense of owner of action will be removed from Buddha or any awakened person (rather the sense will be that the body-mind combination of Buddha just served as a medium for the completion of the action), consequently the action's result will not fall on the Buddha or any awakened person with the sense that he as a heir is getting the result of his action. But the actions performed before awakening, since they would be having a sense of 'I' in it, so their results might still be faced by the body of the awakened person after awakening.
@ourself said:
I find it hard to swallow that the actions of a Buddha creates no karma because that seems to imply they have no consequence.
That seems to be a logical assumption of the role of karma without taking the 12 Nidanas and a Buddha's relationship to them into consideration.
If a Buddha is one who has transcended interdependence and has ceased to be ignorant, then karma can't be created because those links of interdependence have all been broken.
@Jeffrey said:
I don't think we control how we think. We have the realization of dukkha which is one of the three marks of conditioned existence.. If you think you have control of your thoughts then you must be enlightened because you would never (choose to) experience dukkha.
I agree, @Jeffrey. Thoughts come and go. Our mind's function is to produce thoughts.
We get in contact with the world, we think, we feel.
Our thoughts colour our feelings, our emotions.
I don't think we control how we think, but with due patience and mindfulness, we can learn to control whether to act or not on our thoughts.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@Chaz said:
If a Buddha is one who has transcended interdependence and has ceased to be ignorant, then karma can't be created because those links of interdependence have all been broken.
I don't think there is a transcendence of interdependence. While alive a Buddha still depends on causes and conditions to function. A Buddha still needs to eat and sleep and is not independent.
I can see there being no merit involved but karma is also causation and Buddha's actions did have effects.
Ok Note to self..Add the definition of a Buddha to the list (nirvana & enlightenment are already on it) of things whose manifestation is only limited by it's definition..
But just to momentarily return to the OP's posting.
Do one's “thoughts” hold one's Buddha~Nature to ransom
Ransom note thoughts.
Come alone and bring all you've got in small unmarked meritorious bonds or you'll never see your Buddha nature again.
@how, hope you take checks. As for Buddha Nature, that can be left for the dharma Buzzards . . .
It is I feel important to realise how words can be costumed, reflective of our development, age, gender, supper intake, lack or attunement with ideals or ideally independent of specific limited qualities . . .
If we are playing games or 'living the dream', we must abandon the delusion that the path is a delusion . . . meanwhile we are kidnapped by our thoughts . . . :wave: .
@Dakini said:
Are you sure those are dreams, and not astral travel? :ninja: .
Speaking of astral travel. Introducing Rohitassa, the sky walker.
Once I was a seer named Rohitassa, a student of Bhoja, a powerful sky-walker. My speed was as fast as that of a strong archer — well-trained, a practiced hand, a practiced sharp-shooter — shooting a light arrow across the shadow of a palm tree. My stride stretched as far as the east sea is from the west. To me, endowed with such speed, such a stride, there came the desire: 'I will go traveling to the end of the cosmos.' I — with a one-hundred year life, a one-hundred year span — spent one hundred years traveling — apart from the time spent on eating, drinking, chewing & tasting, urinating & defecating, and sleeping to fight off weariness — but without reaching the end of the cosmos I died along the way. So it is amazing, lord, and awesome, how well that has been said by the Blessed One: 'I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear.'"
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@misecmisc1 said:
As far as my theoretical understanding goes, since a Buddha or any awakened person will have no sense of 'I' in him, so the actions performed by him will not be performed with the idea that the Buddha (as a doer) is doing those actions, rather the actions performed will be with the idea that the existing conditions enabled the causal condition for the happening of that action by the body of the Buddha, so the sense of owner of action will be removed from Buddha or any awakened person (rather the sense will be that the body-mind combination of Buddha just served as a medium for the completion of the action), consequently the action's result will not fall on the Buddha or any awakened person with the sense that he as a heir is getting the result of his action. But the actions performed before awakening, since they would be having a sense of 'I' in it, so their results might still be faced by the body of the awakened person after awakening.
I understand that a poisoned Buddha-body still dies even as Buddha doesn't suffer but I still think the actions performed by said Buddha-body creates karmic effect. I don't see how they could help awaken the rest if it were otherwise.
I get that they no longer accumulate karma for the good of their fate but I think they do generate karma for the benefit of all.
I think the only reason the Buddha can be said to be independent is that the Buddha is all inclusive.
@ourself said:
I understand that a poisoned Buddha-body still dies even as Buddha doesn't suffer but I still think the actions performed by said Buddha-body creates karmic effect. I don't see how they could help awaken the rest if it were otherwise.
I get that they no longer accumulate karma for the good of their fate but I think they do generate karma for the benefit of all.
As far as my understanding goes, karma is being done by the body-mind complex of the Buddha, but not as Buddha thinking within him that he is performing those actions, rather the actions were performed by the Buddha as the conditions were ripe for that action to take place and Buddha's body-mind complex acted as a medium for its manifestation. So since Buddha did not perform his actions as he being the owner of it with an 'I' in him, so the results of his actions would not fall on him.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@misecmisc1 said:
As far as my understanding goes, karma is being done by the body-mind complex of the Buddha, but not as Buddha thinking within him that he is performing those actions, rather the actions were performed by the Buddha as the conditions were ripe for that action to take place and Buddha's body-mind complex acted as a medium for its manifestation. So since Buddha did not perform his actions as he being the owner of it with an 'I' in him, so the results of his actions would not fall on him.
It is very clear that Thay will not die but will continue in other people," he says. "So there is nothing lost and we are happy because we are able to help the Buddha to renew his teaching. He is deeply misunderstood by many people so we try to make the teaching available and simple enough so that all people can make good use of that teaching and practice."
As he lifts a glass of tea to drink, he adds: "I have died already many times and you die every moment and you are reborn in every moment so that is the way we train ourselves. It is like the tea. When you pour the hot water in the tea, you drink it for the first time, and then you pour again some hot water and you drink, and after that the tea leaves are there in the pot but the flavour has gone into the tea and if you say they die it is not correct because they continue to live on in the tea, so this body is just a residue.
@misecmisc1 said:
Metta to you and all sentient beings.
Once you see directly actions and decisions being made without an owner. You can never just accept this and wait for enlightenment.
You don't have to wait... You can see things right now as they are. In "ultimate reality" after all we are living it.
You say there is a me until I fully wake up, I disagree with you. There never was a me to begin with. We are just pretending there is one.
I for one can't wait for a thunderous enlightenment to see through delusion.
I can see through it glimpse by glimpse. So sometimes there is a me making decisions, and sometimes very very rarely I watch them being made. It's in those rare moments I know I was never a me to begin with.
It's not our thoughts, but our attachment to our personal concept of ego that holds our Buddha-Nature to ransom.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Comments
From theoretical understanding of ultimate reality, agreed that it is just emptiness with empty phenomena rolling on. But till the ultimate reality is directly experienced, till that point there will be a 'you' in you who is being aware of thoughts. Moreover, till that time, just by being aware, how will you function in Samsara? Even to get up from the bed in the morning, you have to choose whether you want to get up or not, which are also thoughts and you choose to act on a thought. So till that time the ultimate reality is not directly experienced, till then living in conventional reality with having discretion between skillful and unskillful seems like a skillful idea. So till that time, even though we do not have full control over our thoughts, we can exercise some control over the choice of thoughts we want to indulge in, by discerning which thought is skillful and which thought is unskillful and acting accordingly to at least not to further increase our suffering due to performing of unskillful acts.
Well put, @misecmisc1.
I don't think it's about suppression, it's more like a decision not to indulge unskillful thoughts. In the suttas it's referred to as inappropriate attention, ie dwelling on and "feeding" the unskillful thoughts. So there is a choice based on clear comprehension.
This is exactly what it is. It's a decision to not attach to unskillful thoughts. So it's a practice in non-attachment, as well as right mindfulness. We have a choice regarding which thoughts to entertain, and which to let go. The more we practice and apply the dharma to our everyday decisions, the more we'll train ourselves to make wholesome choices, and kleshas will fall away over time. We'll become happier people.
Kia Ora @how (and others),
What is it that stops a person from expressing ones BuddhaNature, or “knowing” that there is such an experience to be had ?
Bearing in ‘mind’ for the most part Mr & Mrs Joe Average (those who live in ignorance-Ignorance in how a Buddhist would use the term=Not “knowing”), live in a ‘conventional’ world/reality, where thoughts are in control, dominating their daily lives, dragging them into a world created by "wants and desires"…
The terms “Ransom” & “Hostage” might be just play on words, but the way I see it, (“I” being the convenient analytic device) when it comes to BuddhaNature, a person’s 'unskilful' thought patterns are what’s keeping them ‘in the dark’ so to speak… ‘Slowing’ down the progress of the lotus blossom rising up out of the mud…
In saying all this, it’s also possible I’m not expressing my self in a way that is clear and precise…My vocabulary is often lacking when it comes to expressing what is on my ‘mind’ -It's like I "know" what it's about, but can't find suitable words to explain it without contradicting/compromising my 'self' in some way... (BTW This is my excuse and I'm sticking to it...) .
..
I would like to thank you all for your "thoughts" that have created more 'food for 'skilful' thought' which in a sense is what this thread is all about...
Metta Shoshin .
..
if we forget 'vada' and 'yana' but keep in mind 'Buddha's Teaching'
then
it is not hard 'I' to become 'i'
because 'we all have' six sense bases, five aggregates of clinging and there are six elements
whether we like to accept or not 'those' are with us and around us all the time
The terms “Ransom” & “Hostage” might be just play on words, but the way I see it, (“I” being the convenient analytic device) when it comes to BuddhaNature, a person’s 'unskilful' thought patterns are what’s keeping them ‘in the dark’ so to speak… ‘Slowing’ down the progress of the lotus blossom rising up out of the mud…
But you're right on! :thumbsup: . This is exactly what the Buddha taught. "Practice" is a process of gradually reaching clarity (vs. obscurity), sometimes described as "clear light". And of course, we're active agents in bringing about that change, it doesn't just happen on its own. Mindfulness (including mindfulness of our tendency to grasp at "self"), diligence, cultivating compassion and an open heart (including compassion towards ourselves), and developing "virtue" (including wholesome thoughts) via observing the precepts, is what pulls back the curtain of obscurity, revealing the clear light of Buddhanature.
Easier said than done, though. But we have a whole lifetime or more to achieve this. :ninja: .
Right. Tradition holds that after exacting his revenge, Mila realized the karmic burden his actions gave rise to and sought out a Guru, Marpa, to teach him how to purify that karma, which, with Marpa's instruction he was able to do in that one lifetime.
So you can control some aspects of your body, why not all of it?
Do you know how you grow your bones? Your doing all of these amazing things and yet you don't know how it's done.
It's doing it by itself. Yes there is some appearance of control. How can you be your body and only control part of it?
Like a driver if a vehicle you used.
When the car crashes you suffer, because you see the car as yours right?
What if the car drives itself and you are just watching it from the sideline. Then if the car crashes you won't suffer.
It's doing it by itself. Yes there is some appearance of control. How can you be your body and only control part of it?
Like a driver if a vehicle you used.
But the body is the vehicle through which our consciousness operates. (Be careful not to identify with the vehicle.) If the vehicle crashes, and we're inside, we most likely will experience pain. And if the vehicle crashes, we still need insurance to patch the vehicle back up, not to mention anyone else involved in the accident, who might also suffer from our lack of mindful driving.
With gradual clearing of obscurations, fewer crashes.
Ninja, what brought you to Buddhism? What do you hope to achieve by choosing to walk the Buddhist path?
Also say when I type my mind is telling me "I am pushing the keys" "I am using my hands" but the actual yogic meditative experience is more wondrous than the mundane.
If anyone is familiar with Jon Kabatt Zin (or wants to google) he does a teaching very early in his mindfulness based stress reduction class. He has each person eat a raisin very slowly and at each part: anticipation, vision of all the texture, feeling in the hand, release of saliva, movement of tongue...
All of that is very immediate and we can catch how the experience is not so hum drum. Me sitting in a chair is quite wondrous. All the sensations in my buttocks and ankles. The weight of my upper body resting on my forearms as they deftly type the keys. How do I know how to type the letters? Indeed how do I make a sentence. I don't think of the sentence and then say it. I do it on the fly. How do we do this? It's not so hum drum. It is shunyata.
You can be aware and still function, zen emphasises this.
You don't have to choose anything. It happens by itself.
If I thought comes up to walk infront of a car, I know not to. I don't have to have a sub vocal debate and think I chose not to.
It does still happen yes, but I'm sure I'm not waiting until I see ultimate reality as you put it.
We are already in ultimate reality. I'm going to try keep observing the illusion.
If you think you make choices and are an entity inside the body that is fine. That's how it feels for me to.
I've seen this isn't really true. So I'm going to do my best to get rid of this idea.
Choices are made yes, I'm just refuting the idea that YOU control them.
Emptiness isn't something to find, we are already here. Witnessing it. It's just hard to see through the smoke and mirrors
I'm not trying to sell you anything. My only suggestion is just observe yourself make a choice.
You will see a distance between yourself and the choice. Then you will know.
That's my experience. Even when choice is redirected, decisions changed, I feel like they're just happening. My decisions are as empty as my thoughts!
I haven't gotten better at choosing, only more aware... and the quality of the choosing has changed gradually as a result of increased awareness. There's nothing else going on.
@Dakini even if the vehicle (of the body) crashes a Bodhisattva is still ok because they are not a worldling and live in the world of the deathless.
True, @Jeffrey. (What a nice couple of meditations you've suggested!) When our observer notes that things are going well, there's no cause for concern. The Buddha taught how to eliminate suffering, so when we notice some chronic state of dis-ease or stress, moodiness, a tendency towards the "defilements" of hate, jealousy, greed, etc., or a pattern of the same type of problems recurring over and over, that's when we can bring our dharma skills to bear on the situation, to pull ourselves out of the rut and liberate ourselves from that particular type of suffering.
And we can also appreciate when things are going well, as a way of practicing equanimity. I love that part about noticing how we sit in a chair, reading, or typing! Notice the sun lighting up the room, and maybe warming our bodies subtly. Notice the clicking of the keyboard. Our posture. The softness of the chair, as it supports us. The warmth and flavor of the cup of tea by our side, if we have one. And so on. Very cool! Rushing through the world without mindfulness, we can miss out on so many moments of contentment. Noticing those moments also helps train the mind to recognize contentment and build equanimity. It gets us closer to the eventual goal :om: .
Kia Ora,
"Do "nothing" and (in a very subtle way), awareness will work at prying the thoughts apart-
Exposing the empty space within (and without) of ones pure and unpolluted heart!"
Metta Shoshin .
..
We are all speaking from inside the dream. We have no choice. There is no way to step outside and and be inside at the same time.
We can talk about how we arrange our lives in a more Buddhist way. Or how we start our day. Or how meditation is working for us. About choices we make, and how they affect our lives. And they do. With greater power as time goes by and experience is gained.
You seem to be saying that you have no control over the outcome of your choices. Which flys in the face of Buddhist teachings.
When we talk and act it is in the relative world. In my view, that is where all progress is made.
Ask Jayanatha how many choices it took before he arrived at his decision to ordain.
In his Mulamadhyamakakarika, Nagarjuna explains emptiness without once taking a position or asserting anything. It's the only way to get at it. All concepts must be put aside.
Don't get me wrong. I'm certainly not denying that you have insight into emptiness. How could I?
I'm saying that when you try to pin it down with words and concepts, it slips away.
http://www.great-grandma.com/aquakeys/toltec/tales-of-power-part_2-chapter_04-having-to-believe
Kia Ora @Jeffrey,
A Bodhisattva is an "Enlighten Being" Tis the mind that's enlighten and the body is just [the] being....for the time being....
Metta Shoshin .
..
:clap: .
The other day I was doing a spot of Lucid dreaming. Normally when this happens I get excited and wake myself up. The difference between normal dreaming and more aware or lucid dreaming is it has more in common with being conscious or awake.
In a similar way we can talk about and in a way that is closer to awakening. We can also create conditions in which we question or become aware of the dream state. For this we have meditation. That is why I and others stress its importance. We are on the right track . . .
:om: .
Why wake yourself up if you're having a lucid dream? In my limited experience, that's the point at which you have complete control of the dream. Oh or did you mean you woke up accidentally because you were too excited?
Gee I wonder what could've excited you so much in a lucid dream... or who... 
The ones I've had did "stop" by themselves before I could do much, but I don't think I woke immediately up. One I got to fly, the other I was doing something else, coughcough. I may have had others that I don't quite recall.
Kia Ora @lobster,
When you have those kind of dreams, does 'thinking' take place in them ?
Or is the dream itself just a thought pattern brought to life in a vivid technicolour experience?
I also have lucid dreams(most of which are about flying) the last one that stands out was when I was a bird (an eagle, hawk or vulture, I was a big bird with a big wingspan) flying over desert sand dunes, but did any thinking on the part of the bird (whose body I took over) take place during this experience/adventure ??? That I can't remember...
Metta Shoshin .
..
Shoshin, by body I was thinking of relative truth. And the deathless is absolute truth. The body dies.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/heartstr.htm
The last time I remember thinking during a lucid dream I also had a quick laugh that woke me up. The thought was "Why would I bother dreaming that I got a new coffee table?"
Kia Ora @Jeffrey,
Thanks for the post....
I was just playing with breaking down the word/term "Bodhisattva" Bodhi =Awaken/Enlighten and Sattva=Being (like human being)...Hence "the body is just [the] being....for the time being".... ( until aging and decay returns it to whence it came-ready for recycling)
Metta Shoshin .
..
I also have lucid dreams(most of which are about flying) the last one that stands out was >when I was a bird (an eagle, hawk or vulture, I was a big bird with a big wingspan) flying over desert sand dunes, but did any thinking on the part of the bird (whose body I >took over) take place during this experience/adventure ??? That I can't remember...
Are you sure those are dreams, and not astral travel? :ninja: .
Kia Ora,
I'm not too sure...You could well be right......Maybe it was a cross over type dream and when astral travelling I started daydreaming whilst cruising at 500 feets over the desert sands..
In another lucid flying dream (I always seem to be flying in those types of dreams) to test I was dreaming I flew straight at a building and flew right through it.... "Form is Emptiness.... Emptiness is Form"
Mind travel is such a wondrous experience... . :wow: ..
Metta Shoshin .
..
(I always seem to be flying in those types of dreams)
That's why I thought they might be actual astral travel. Do you ever go to see friends, or travel to other parts of the world to see what's going on, or to visit beautiful landscapes? You were flying over the desert? What desert? Australia?
Kia Ora,
It's possible the desert was somewhere in Africa or the Middle east, I remember seeing some old sand stone buildings...Who knows...I might have entered the body of a falcon owned by an Arabian prince...
No I don't recall seeing people I know and for the most part I don't plan the trips...It's like a magical mystery tour...(and no I'm not talking about acid trips or flashbacks)
Metta Shoshin .
..
What desert? Australia?
Australia's one big desert, isn't it?
.
Kia Ora,
Was that an attempt at some 'dry' humour .
..
Metta Shoshin .
..
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qAVlyB5u6GI/Tb2oVpEit2I/AAAAAAAABsI/apYFHRIxG7U/s1600/drunk_Aussie.jpg
You don't have to choose anything. It happens by itself.
It happens by itself after realization, but till the realization has not happened and the mind is still covered by defilements, till that stage we have to choose what we want to do. Remember Buddha's teaching regarding intention and then intention leads to action (or karma) and consequently its results. Till the time we are not awakened, we are the owner of our actions and so we will bear the results of our actions. Good actions lead to good results and bad actions lead to bad results.
There is a 'you' in you till you directly experience the ultimate reality. So till that stage, you will have to bear the effect of your causal actions, so it shall be better if you take responsibility for your choices or intentions and choose which is a skillful intention and which is an unskillful intention and so act skillfully.
Metta to you and all sentient beings.
@misemisc1 "I am a Hindu": okay let's all listen to that, lol!
I find it hard to swallow that the actions of a Buddha creates no karma because that seems to imply they have no consequence.
As far as my theoretical understanding goes, since a Buddha or any awakened person will have no sense of 'I' in him, so the actions performed by him will not be performed with the idea that the Buddha (as a doer) is doing those actions, rather the actions performed will be with the idea that the existing conditions enabled the causal condition for the happening of that action by the body of the Buddha, so the sense of owner of action will be removed from Buddha or any awakened person (rather the sense will be that the body-mind combination of Buddha just served as a medium for the completion of the action), consequently the action's result will not fall on the Buddha or any awakened person with the sense that he as a heir is getting the result of his action. But the actions performed before awakening, since they would be having a sense of 'I' in it, so their results might still be faced by the body of the awakened person after awakening.
That seems to be a logical assumption of the role of karma without taking the 12 Nidanas and a Buddha's relationship to them into consideration.
If a Buddha is one who has transcended interdependence and has ceased to be ignorant, then karma can't be created because those links of interdependence have all been broken.
I agree, @Jeffrey. Thoughts come and go. Our mind's function is to produce thoughts.
We get in contact with the world, we think, we feel.
Our thoughts colour our feelings, our emotions.
I don't think we control how we think, but with due patience and mindfulness, we can learn to control whether to act or not on our thoughts.
I don't think there is a transcendence of interdependence. While alive a Buddha still depends on causes and conditions to function. A Buddha still needs to eat and sleep and is not independent.
I can see there being no merit involved but karma is also causation and Buddha's actions did have effects.
Ok Note to self..Add the definition of a Buddha to the list (nirvana & enlightenment are already on it) of things whose manifestation is only limited by it's definition..
But just to momentarily return to the OP's posting.
Do one's “thoughts” hold one's Buddha~Nature to ransom
Ransom note thoughts.
Come alone and bring all you've got in small unmarked meritorious bonds or you'll never see your Buddha nature again.
@how, hope you take checks. As for Buddha Nature, that can be left for the dharma Buzzards . . .
It is I feel important to realise how words can be costumed, reflective of our development, age, gender, supper intake, lack or attunement with ideals or ideally independent of specific limited qualities . . .
If we are playing games or 'living the dream', we must abandon the delusion that the path is a delusion . . . meanwhile we are kidnapped by our thoughts . . . :wave: .
Speaking of astral travel. Introducing Rohitassa, the sky walker.
I understand that a poisoned Buddha-body still dies even as Buddha doesn't suffer but I still think the actions performed by said Buddha-body creates karmic effect. I don't see how they could help awaken the rest if it were otherwise.
I get that they no longer accumulate karma for the good of their fate but I think they do generate karma for the benefit of all.
I think the only reason the Buddha can be said to be independent is that the Buddha is all inclusive.
As far as my understanding goes, karma is being done by the body-mind complex of the Buddha, but not as Buddha thinking within him that he is performing those actions, rather the actions were performed by the Buddha as the conditions were ripe for that action to take place and Buddha's body-mind complex acted as a medium for its manifestation. So since Buddha did not perform his actions as he being the owner of it with an 'I' in him, so the results of his actions would not fall on him.
No, but they still have to fall.
Thich Nhat Han has a good analogy for rebirth:
http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/zen-master-thich-nhat-hanh-love-climate-change
Once you see directly actions and decisions being made without an owner. You can never just accept this and wait for enlightenment.
You don't have to wait... You can see things right now as they are. In "ultimate reality" after all we are living it.
You say there is a me until I fully wake up, I disagree with you. There never was a me to begin with. We are just pretending there is one.
I for one can't wait for a thunderous enlightenment to see through delusion.
I can see through it glimpse by glimpse. So sometimes there is a me making decisions, and sometimes very very rarely I watch them being made. It's in those rare moments I know I was never a me to begin with.
As-salamu alaykum السلام عليكم
in the dharma, we born again Maori, like to say:
Kī tōnu taku waka topaki i te tuna
which does not translate very well, so will leave in its more relevant tongue
:wave: .
Al-salami-abracadabra ¤¥£♡☆♧
It's not our thoughts, but our attachment to our personal concept of ego that holds our Buddha-Nature to ransom.
So then what is this "we" that is pretending to be a bunch of me's?
That is... How can I pretend to be if I am not?
If we are not then there is no delusion and this isn't even happening. We are not even imagining something is happening.
Being is not the illusion. Being separate and independent is.
I'm confused now.
.