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"Refuge in the Buddha" (or in an Awakened Mind)
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
Kia Ora,
"I take refuge in the Buddha the Dharma and the Sangha" x 3
Is this refuge within or without ?
Are you taking refuge in Siddhartha Gautama the "man" (given the title Buddha=the Awakened one) ?
Or in the potential of an Awakened Mind that's waiting to be tapped into ?
"Don't practice to become Enlightened-Let your practice be the natural expression of your Enlightenment !"
Just some food for thought to mull over....
Metta Shoshin . . 
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Comments
The answer should be obvious.
It's the latter.
The Buddha himself is dead.
I'm quite comfortable in my own 'corpse' thanks.
(AwakenED one, AwakenED mind.... 'Awaken' is the verb. )
:clap: .
Are we moving into rhetorical questioning . . . where ones personal understanding is of more value than opinions . . . some of which can be more useful than others.
Personally I take refuge in the Buddhas and enlightened beings that have been, that are now and those of the future that I will be joining . . . as a consultant :crazy: .
Kia Ora,
Corrected....Thanks....(BTW I'm a Cockney that's my excuse .
.. )
"One hour then another.
Inexorably march, step by step.
Whenever I meet you, we each smile.
But who is it who drags your corpse around ?'
Metta Shoshin .
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So am I.
Poor grammar is no excuse.
The question in your above post is off-topic, so let's not get into pedantry, ok?
The Buddha said "Work out your own salvation with diligence."
When you take refuge in the Buddha, you're looking up at Siddharta Gautama "the man" as an example of the potential for enlightenment that lies within you, and that is within every man's reach.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu explains:
"The Buddha, on the external level, refers to Siddhattha Gotama, the Indian prince who renounced his royal titles and went into the forest, meditating until he ultimately gained Awakening. To take refuge in the Buddha means, not taking refuge in him as a person, but taking refuge in the fact of his Awakening: placing trust in the belief that he did awaken to the truth, that he did so by developing qualities that we too can develop, and that the truths to which he awoke provide the best perspective for the conduct of our life."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/refuge.html
http://viewonbuddhism.org/refuge.html
http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=2417
Kia Ora,
On a personal level.....
I take refuge in an awakened mind (the Buddha)
I take refuge in the true nature of things which comes from an awakened mind(the Dharma)
I take refuge in the company of like-minded people(the Sangha)
Metta Shoshin .
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Some people call it "Buddha nature".
I understand that Dharma in this case (capital D), refers to the Buddha's doctrine.
Oh for god's sake, quit complicating things, dissecting them and re-inventing them!
I take refuge in the Buddha
I take Refuge in the Dhamma
I take refuge in the Sangha
It's done perfectly well for a couple of thousand years, and you think it needs "improving"?
Jeesh, get off the box, quit yapping and start doing!
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Yus, just say yer bleedin' prayers.
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Kia Ora,
Yes I agree, the "True nature of things" ie the Dharma, is what the Buddha was on about with his discourses...
Metta Shoshin .
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Kia Ora,
Relax @federica, don't take things to heart..."Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya !" You cling... You suffer....
Metta Shoshin .
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Kia Ora,
Six of one, half a dozen of the other...I'm not fussed either way (just as long as it's the middle way .
.. )
Metta Shoshin .
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Kia Ora,
But I'm not bleeding...
Metta Shoshin .
...
But I'm not bleeding...
Do more prostrations then!
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:bowdown: ..no pain, no gain!
I moderate, I kick ass.
Please don't patronise me.
Thanks.
I moderate, I kick ass.
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Please don't patronise me.
Thanks.
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For me, taking refuge in Buddha points to something more than just a historical figure or even a potential. It's more about presence and surrender and a kind of grace. Call it God if you wish. At least, this it what I understand is means but it's an attitude I often find hard to generate within Buddhist context.
Is that close to how you understand refuge?
“For those standing in the middle of a lake, when a fearful flood has
arisen, for those overcome by old age and death, speak about an
island, dear Sir, you must explain an island to me, so there will be no
more after this.”
“For those standing in the middle of a lake, when a fearful flood has
arisen, for those overcome by old age and death, I speak about an
island, Kappa: Having nothing, no attachment, this is the island with
nothing beyond, this is called Nibbāna, I say, the end of old age and
death. Knowing this, those who are mindful, who are emancipated in
this very life, come not under Māra’s control, they are not servants to
Māra.”
Kappa’s Questions
Parayanavagga
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.
Please don't patronise me.
Thanks.
Kia Ora,
No problem . :bowdown: ..
Metta Shoshin .
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What does Kia Ora mean? I assume it's some kind of greeting in Australian.
Is that the way you converse with your friends IRL?
That is, say hello and goodbye announcing who just spoke with each sentence?
Because the heading at the top of your comment has your name it seems sorta redundant to sign off with your name after each comment. No?
Can we not just assume that you wish metta on folks at this point?
Sorry for nitpicking, but I'm with Fede. It's tiresome.
Kia Ora,
In the conventional sense, it's more like having confidence in and relying on oneself and knowing that there's nobody 'out' there that can help...It's DIY all the "way"...(And in the Ultimate sense, it's "No self" all the way)
Metta Shoshin .
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Kia Ora,
Why does it bother 'you' so ?
Metta Shoshin .
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Greetings,
I don't know. I guess it just seems unnecessary. Why does 'Shoshin' do what 'Shoshin' does?
My name isn't actually robot by the way. It's Pete.
Yours truly,
Pete
I don't know. I guess it just seems unnecessary. Why does 'Shoshin' do what 'Shoshin' does?
My name isn't actually robot by the way. It's Pete.
Yours truly,
Pete
Kia Ora Pete,
Many things in life are unnecessary, for example it's not really necessary for you to find my greeting unnecessary...
Why does anybody do what they do ??? Perhaps it's Karma ,,,,,,
BTW "Kia Ora" is a Maori greeting meaning "May you be well" (The Maori people are from Aotearoa NZ.. Oz FYI is a state of NZ- it's like Alcatraz it's where we ship our undesirables ) .
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Metta Shoshin .
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@Shoshin, I have had so many adverse comments about this privately, that I'm going to begin editing your posts and removing them.
Please stop now,.
It's unnecessary, and sadly over-familiarity breeds contempt.
In the same way that 'namaste' - which actually means "The Sacred in me greets the sacred in you" now has been over-used so much, it just means 'hi/bye!'. Kia Ora has lost its lustre, and means something with artificial colourings, sweeteners and flavourings.
(Cheap, nasty pseudo-orange drink sold in the UK)
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As you know it bugs a lot of people, your inconsiderate attitude is also unnecessary.
Thanks for your cooperation.
I asked my teacher this and she said that a Bodhisattva actually directly experiences the Buddhas bliss body of sambhogakaya. Nirmanakaya is manifested as Shakyamuni in the ordinary world so that beings who do not have the Bodhisattva realizations can be guided by a Buddha until such time that they do become a Bodhisattva. Nirmanakaya Buddha or Buddha Shakyamuni manifests out of the compassion which is the nature of reality. Some people say love is not real because you cannot measure it as a chemical can be measured. However the truth is that everything that is measured is conditioned and impermanent and only love is real.
"(Cheap, nasty pseudo-orange drink sold in the UK)"
I thought you were kidding, Federica.
http://www.coca-cola.co.uk/brands/category/kia-ora-nas.html
A plea for tolerance.
It seems that some folks have more tolerance for individuality than others.
Often that which is traditional is revered for it's own sake and considered sacrosanct even while we are paying lip service to the teaching that everything changes.
Mostly folks just determine their tribal boundaries and respond to everyone in accord with whether they fit within those boundaries or not and yet somehow can think that our meditation practice that transcends such boundaries are OK.
If anyone's understanding passes the four seals test then I simply bow to that understanding and pay little attention to whatever affects might accompany them if no harm is done by them.
I am sure we can all find traditional Buddhist teachings that show the Buddha personally attending to a disciple who was suffering from open sores and was being ignored by the Buddhist practitioners all around him.
Who do you think are the traditionalists and who is the individualist in that teaching.
....and more importantly..where do we fit into that teaching.
The only true refuge is yourself.
Knowing one's actions determine one's future and knowing the difference of what is up to me and what is not up to me, that is true refuge IMO.
Kia Ora @federica,
Kia Ora has lost its lustre, and means something with artificial colourings, sweeteners and flavourings.
Umm now lets see...Harsh speech, belittling an indigenous people's language with condescending remarks... Nice one @federica....
The Maori people FYI are a proud race of people and have a beautiful poetic language and culture...
Metta Shoshin .
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Kia Ora,
Tis time for me to depart these shores...
May you all find what it is you're looking for and don't wander too far from the path....
Happy Mindfulness...Stay safe and well...
Metta Shoshin .
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it is largely how I would understand it. I might use the words, 'grace of the Buddha'. I would not call on or require refuge in God on a Buddhist forum. If you find God, tell her to take refuge in the Buddha...
Kia Ora!
If Shoshin is going to jet I want to take up this opening line! If you stay I won't.
Don't leave just because someone dislikes your greeting!
Metta Swingisyellow
Kia Ora,
There's a bit more to it than just that, it would seem some people find that 'having' to read the greeting somewhat 'unsettling' and for the most part they don't even know why it makes them feel this way..."Scratch of head"
It's not as if they're swear words, and I'm cursing someone out, instead I'm just wishing them well each time I post, but sadly one would think that the former is the case with the reaction from some...
I've been given an ultimatum, stop greeting others with a well wish (been told that people are complaining to management) or have the posts I make censored...And if I choose the censor option poor overworked and underpaid @federica, would have her work cut out/hands full...
It's a mountain out of a mole hill I know, but such is life in samsara...That's bloody dukkha for ya .
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It's been fun while it lasted........But nothing's permanent !
Metta Shoshin .
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Kia Ora,
That's a shame.:shake: I wish you the best.
Metta Swingisyellow
Kia Ora,
Thanks...
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No doubt @federica will tell her version of the sequence of events, when she wakes up (no pun intended) .
Happy pathfinding ...
Metta Shoshin .
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@Shoshin
Yes there could be a principle to be fought for
or
there could also just be an ego that has been challenged.
If you were Maori, then I could see you having a point about having a part of your heritage dissed over your usage of "Kia Ora" but my memory (not always trust worthy) says that this is an adopted phrase.
Are you here to soften or harden your sense of identity?
Does leaving serve one or the other?
Whether you stay or leave, let me just state how grateful I am for the boundaries that you have challenged so far with many of your questions.
In gassho
@Shoshin: I find your leaving over a greeting issue rather... well, no harsh speech.
Stay and don"t be silly, in a nutshell.
@Shoshin I am not bothered at all by the greeting (not one bit), but why leave a forum because you're asked to remove headers/footers from your posts? It shouldn't be that upsetting, and as Buddhists we have work to do when something hits us like that. I've left places before because I needed to do personal work, but not because I recognized I needed to do personal work. I wasn't being mindful -- I was a zombie, still asleep at the wheel.
Or if you leave, that's okay too. You'll have to live with being "Shoshin, the guy who left because he was asked to remove headers/footers from his posts, and felt that was too much to be asked.", and maybe you don't want that?
If you walk into a store with a lit cigarette, and the cashier says you can't be served, do you put the cigarette out or leave the store?
As-salamu alaikum,
Or as we Buddhists say
yours in the dhrama,
ps. being still, means more than still being
And now back to the kool-aid
Original UK TV ad
Kia Ora,
Thank You and you're most welcome....I've also learnt heaps from you and other members...
No I'm not Maori, but non Maori people living in Aotearoa often use it when greeting each other, sadly some don't know its true meaning...
I have been a guest in their country for many years...
I use the greeting out of respect for Maoridom, I'm an honorary Whānau member at our local Marae (spiritual meeting place) and have had the good fortune to be part of the welcoming committee "Pōwhiri", welcoming guests onto the Marae ...
"Pōwhiri, the ceremony used to welcome visitors onto the marae, was traditionally a way of finding out whether people were friends or enemies. Different marae have slightly different protocols depending on their iwi or area, but the same formal roles and structure, "
In regards to your questions...
@how, I'm here to soften the sense of identity "I" still have...When using this greeting I see a real person behind the comments I'm responding to, and I do sincerely wish them well...It humbles the sense of self, in that no matter what's been said, I still wish them well... It's the focus of my intention...It's not done to disrespect others in any way...
@DhammaDragon, in a nutshell Thank you....
@AldrisTorvalds, "If you walk into a store with a lit cigarette, and the cashier says you can't be served, do you put the cigarette out or leave the store? " Me being the bitch that I am would blow smoke in her face then stub the cigarette out on her hand .
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I know for many it's just a header/footer, so would it be just as easy for them to just ignore it ? BTW I won't be the 'guy' who left because 'he'..... however I could be the 'female' who left because 'she' .
I can understand that some members might be having some personal issues, family, friends,work, etc etc, (or perhaps an unresolved issue with another member) this is to be expected in samsara, but I am truly at a lost as to why the expressions I use should be targeted..
If by me voluntarily removing the greetings would make their life any easier, then (knowing that this was the case) I would do it in an heartbeat, but how would it really be of benefit ? What next would they decide to be offended by ? After all they are just warm soft words, that some so it would seem find mentally disturbing...
"The mind is the root from which all things grow!"
I should add, from what I gather there's no NewBuddhist rule that states wishing another member well ie "greeting" is forbidden or that there is a limit on the amount of times it can be used ... But then I could be wrong....
Metta Shoshin .
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@Shoshin Things happen all the time that we can't control. We can rage against them, or we can stop trying to be so controlling. Arguing with a moderator won't solve anything, questioning why it's necessary with us won't change anything, and leaving is just further escalation. Whatever problems people may have with your phrases... isn't it just as much of a problem that you can't give them up? That's all I'm going to say about it. I wish you luck, but I hope you use skillful speech and actions so you won't need it!
My thought here, @Shoshin, is: every time we post a comment, we're communicating, like talking, only virtually.
Signing in and signing off every single time slows down the fluidity of the dialogue.
I remember some new member posting "Hello" / "Yours, Bob" every single time he wrote. I felt like saying, "yeah, we got it: you're Bob..."
It grows old after a while.
I should add, from what I gather there's no NewBuddhist rule that states wishing another member well ie "greeting" is forbidden or that there is a limit on the amount of times it can be used.
You're right, there is no such rule. Clearly it's irritated some people, but it isn't offensive and wouldn't be against the Terms of Service of any forum I know of. I don't know why such a big deal is being made out of it, and I don't see why a moderator would get involved in it.
KIa Ora,
I would like to make this clear, I have no argument with @federica, she is only doing what she feels is right, ie her job...I might not agree with her judgment, but that's life...
Metta Shoshin .
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Kia Ora,
And I respect that, and have no wish to censor how others begin or end their posts...
Metta Shoshin .
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Kia Ora,
There are rule on most forums, and as @SpinyNorman mentioned no rule on this forum in regards to greetings...
Yes I could give up my principle/s, but what next ? What will they 'want' next ?
"The avatar you are using make me feel uncomfortable so please change it!" Or "I don't like the wavy smiley icon being used please remove them !"
"You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time!"
Metta Shoshin .
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As far as the first refuge jewel of "Buddha", both!
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I think that's a bit unfair. What could be the worst they want? They don't accept firstborns and don't take money.
Complaining about smilies? Really? HIghly unlikely here.
I did tell someone their eyeball avatar was creepy....and they changed it. Not to say you should do that....but is it really worth this dramatic attempt to leave?
I think if you knew the group a little better, including admins and moderators, you would know the 'worst' is just a fear on your end.
Is there no compromising on your end? The benefits of the group might be worth it.
It's not the idea of wishing well....it's just to keep conversations sounding right...it's not about you and offending you.
All relationships are give and take. It also might be a lesson for you about letting go of control. This is not your house. We are visitors here.
Love, peace and hair grease. ...
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