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Why would anybody want to be enlightened?
Between2Worlds
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I can see how buddhism can help change us and make us better. But why would somebody want to be enlightened? I think Englightenment is a scary thing and it is very simple. I believe the only difference between a regular person and enlightened is that the enlightened one realizes that this whole thing is a sham. Thats why they go out and leave society because they lose all motivation to live in a world that is based off of nothing. So what is the benefit of that?
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The answer from my perspective is total freedom from suffering and the ability to show other beings how to free themselves.
Yes. The point to enlightenment (if you can say there is a point) is to be free from suffering. It would allow for a completely different experience of the world and life in general and allow much more freedom in helping others. Everything isn't a sham. That isn't the point of Buddhism. If that is what you think you have gotten the wrong idea.
The Buddha sometimes spoke of the need for Enlightenment as "your head is on fire"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html
Mull it over ^_^
Enlightenment doesnt free you from suffering. Actually it just helps you realize that there is nobody there to suffer. But wouldnt you rather just be somebody who suffers than nobody at all?
You are nobody now. what is the difference?
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Oh, I'll wait until it happens - then I'll let you know!
That is how it frees you. To understand the true nature of things as they are. But it doesn't make you nobody. As @Greg911 said, things already are what you are afraid of them being. You just haven't seen them yet. Enlightened isn't something you become. It is something you already are you just haven't accepted it. Seeing yourself for what you really are is all there is to it. But we make it rather difficult to get there.
Thats why they go out and leave society because they lose all motivation to live in a world that is based off of nothing.
First, find out what enlightenment is, as distinct from thinking about what it is, or waxing wise about it.
After that, come back and let us know your thoughts.
@Between2Worlds said:
@Between2Worlds
“From the ego's perspective, the process of letting go is tantamount to suicide!”
What do you get from the above quote...
I hope you don't mind @how but I don't see the point in me reinventing the wheel, so I've borrowed one of your in a nutshell quotes , it seems quite appropriate in responding to @Between2Worlds enquiry ....
We are all in this together (whatever this is). Does that alleviate suffering? I know it helps at least.
Wanting to be enlightened is more of wishing things were different. Kind of a catch-22.
You aren't getting it right about what 'enlightenment' is, but you would hardly be alone!
It sort of sounds like your views on Buddhism come from a world's religions text book edited by second generation Catholics. Yah, the common-ish (albeit wrong) opinions of what Buddhism 'is' are existentially dreary, who'd want THAT?
If it's your thing to study Buddhism, all that dreary, no-self stuff will flesh out and transform into the only hope we have. Not a statement of faith, on my part, a statement of fact for me. Good luck with your searching!
Indeed you do
. . . however it is far better to know. As pointed out, none of what you believe is true.
The point of enlightenment is to know. That may seem very harsh and direct but Buddhists are kind of interested in the truth . . .
Sidhartha did not leave the society he lived in because he was enlightened. He left because he was confused. When he became enlightened he went back to help society overcome suffering.
What exactly is a world that is based off of nothing?
If there is nothing then there is no world.
No world, no problem.
Some have taken that approach but even if they know it not, the world kept going and their escape was a convenient delusion. Their remains nurture the soil.
There is no way you can turn into a nobody that doesn't suffer unless you cease to live and even that isn't certain.
Enlightenment...What's in it for "me" ? Nothing!
The reality that is in your mind could be called a sham, however harsh and un-compassionate that may be. The reality that you exist in day to day,that which is unknowable and before mind cannot be correctly called anything, sham or otherwise. Buddhism provides a wisdom for living in both realities. Knowing the difference and being in the no-difference. Your question of why would someone want to be enlightened is a valid and deep question. But do you know what you are really asking?
Yes because I know what its like to be enlightened and im glad to be back to my delusions. Id rather live in a world were everything is a hallucination than see the futility of it. Enlightenment is very simple, its knowing the truth. Thats all it is, if there was a way to enlighten other people id rather not.
You does? Funny thing the mind . . . Is it just possible that you are deluded and have mental health issues?
That is the opposite of enlightened . . .
You are projecting from fear when you should be using your insight. You can't figure it out intellectually alone. You are both Ego and no-self.
The Ego owns everything. When it doesn't do what it is suppose to do. Keep you alive it just gives up. It doesn't want to play any more and it leaves and it takes the ball with it.
You can place your orders online for the official Enlightenment T-shirts " I AM ENLIGHTENED" but I've only got pink ones left...
On a more serious note...
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/21580/is-it-possible-for-the-enlightened-to-become-unenlightened#latest
I don't think anyone can say what it is like for someone else to feel enlightened. I know that I did feel that way myself for a while but then realized I mistook the feeling of bliss for what a lot of us call enlightenment. For a while, Buddhism for me was like drinking a glass of water while looking for a prize at the bottom of the glass. And I dropped Buddhism for a while because for as many glasses of water that I drank, I never got the prize. I even tried drinking out of different glasses. Then I thought, Aha! the water itself is the prize. But that wore out after a while too. I laugh to myself about the time when I thought water had meaning. So why do we want more than water? I think that is the question to ask.
I know what it was like. I really felt that a thinker was one of the thoughts. Enlightenment is like every day regular life except you realize that your just kind of flowing. But there was nothing beautiful about it. It was empty and lonely. I was lucky that it wasnt too late to go back.
Nice try but that is more delusion and not what Buddha taught.
If being enlightened means a person is in a sense lucid dreaming then they would be able to sprout wings.
You're thinking of the Matrix, not Buddhism.
Why do you think this is funny? If you really don't know what enlightenment is don't you think you should stat from there. You are not being skillful and you are not helping. Your on a more serious note.. Only shows your great deal of confusion. While it is true that you will doubt anything you don't understand. It doesn't give you the right to make fun of those that do.
@Between2Worlds
IMO, you are correct in that the very wish to be enlightened needs to be dropped for enlightenment to manifest.
Enlightenment is simply an awakening from the ego's dream of it's own validity.
Where the ego's perspective of existence relies on the adversarial narrative of self separated from others, enlightenment is nothing more or less than selflessness.
Because of this, retreating from the world should not be confused with being enlightened.
While retreating from the world can be an evolution from of a worldly dream into it's spiritual counterpart, enlightenment is a term for an awakening from both worldly and spiritual dreams.
The benefit of that is the path towards sufferings cessation being illuminated for any who choose to follow.
My apologies if you took offense and my apologies to the OP if he too was offended....
Yes "I" am ignorant of many things and "I" don't claim to know what I don't know...
But it's safe to say that a number of members have also experienced what the OP says he experienced...Having that little glimpse into the unknown...And no doubt it can be quite a scary experience for those who are not quite ready to let go....This it would aeem being the case for the OP... Or it could just as well been a delusion...
You entered the flow. A very minor internal possibility. Then you assume it is enlightenment, should be beautiful, must not be empty or lonely and that you are better off somewhere else.
In Buddhism we call this ignorance. Again I am speaking to you very directly which may seem harsh.
You did not become anything or lose anything. Some temporary change occurred. This change has been labeled and explained by you in a way that does not seem consistent with the rudimentary stages of the path.
Is it kind to make fun of the situation or as @how more skilfully illustrates, explain the situation in another way . . .
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Poppycock.
Once you're enlightened, there IS no "going back". And you're quite contented about it.
The aspect of Enlightenment you missed, was any attachment to state, and neutral activity.
And Enlightened person takes everything that happens as something that just happens. They don't attach any emotional feeling about it.
It is just what it is.
But it's absolutely, definitely NOT 'empty and lonely'.
It's like telling you to read a book, and when you've read it, to now UN-read it.
You may have had a specific mental experience, but it wasn't enlightenment.
"Don't practice to become enlightened- let your practice be the natural expression of your enlightenment !"
You don't need to look upon Enlightenment as a bombastic, remote and alien word.
It has more to do with leading an enlightened life or making more enlightened decisions about your life than attaining some far-off removed spiritual realm.
It can be as simple or as complicated an affair as you want to make it, but not at all scary.
It has to do with developing wisdom and being able to look objectively into the nature of reality.
It has to do with curbing your suffering by not seeking permanence where there is none, relating better to the people around you by acting instead of reacting.
It has to do with going about your life without attachment, craving, anger, ignorance dictating your agenda.
It has to do with mindfully savouring your present moment in the here and now, in the midst of the turmoil of the crowd, not alienating yourself from society or losing all motivation to live.
Sorry, @Between2Worlds, but it doesn't sound like you've been there.
Not that any of us has a very clear idea what Enlightenment really is.
Probably different shards of opinions, as it is.
Isn't you view on life in general and Buddhism in particular rather gloomy?
The pretension to want to be enlightened -as contrasted to the aspiration to become enlightened- can have that component of escaping from things as they are and wishing them to be different.
Real enlightenment, instead, has to do with being accepting of things as they really are.
There lies the whole difference, I guess.
But there was nothing beautiful about it. It was empty and lonely.
That doesn't sound anything like Buddhist enlightenment.
In short the OP is mis-describing enlightenment. They say enlightenment isn't about overcoming suffering. Enlightenment is exactly about overcoming suffering, hence the Four Noble Truths. One who overcomes suffering would not fall into such a nihilistic view as the OP represents, and so I must conclude they've never experienced what enlightenment is.
Everything else they have wrong starts with that gaping misrepresentation of enlightenment.
Back to the drawing board!
What you said is true. But it is a little more complicated that that. You have Karma. You have life forgetfulness. You need a trigger in this life to continue on the correct path. That trigger can cause fear which can cause a new round of attachment. He was not prepared for it as a practicing Buddhist would have been.
I have no doubt you experienced something, @Between2Worlds. But that doesn't mean what you experienced was the Buddhist definition/finding of enlightenment. If you truly understood what Buddhist enlightenment is about, you wouldn't be confusing the 2, I think.
A lot of people go through times in their lives where they realize things about the world around them, and about their internal world. And sometimes, that realizations is indeed lonely and a bit depressing. But realizing some things about the world isn't necessarily truth. It doesn't make one enlightened.
But the light (or delight) is knowing it's all illusion (or sham) and showing everyone else that this is the case, to those ready to accept and are prepared to stop ignoring it for what it is!
Shamfully yours!
Anataman
@Greg911
That's a lot of assumption to carry around.
Grasping after an understanding is something **any **of us can do in oh so many different ways, whether being a practicing Buddhist or not.
Is not the belief that a practicing Buddhist is prepared for such an attachment, a pretty good description itself of another grasping attachment?
Who can travel in life without countless triggers of fear?
Who is to say that the Buddhist path is the right way for everyone?
What makes practicing Buddhists just stop practicing?
Who has not seen a trail of their own ignorance as a wake behind them?
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If you verified them they are not assumptions
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This is true but what is you point? He is not a practicing Buddhist. Someone he knows has some knowledge of it and advised him to ask us. He knows more about him than we do. That is how you know where to begin.
No it isn't. It is the fruit of the truth.
This is true but what is your point?
Who is to say that the Buddhist path is not?
Wrong view. Ignorance,
From where do they see this wake? You can spend your whole life in ignorance.
Of course, but here we seem to be dealing with a basic misunderstanding of how enlightenment is described in Buddhism.
Not everyone who gets enlightenment leaves. A "Bodhisattva" vows to not leave until all beings are saved from suffering. Their motivation to live in this world is to help others who suffer.
Lol. So you do not know what it is like after all. I think more study and less speculation would serve you well.
What is initiation?
Who gives it?
How is it given?
What affect does it have?
Why is it secret?
This is not about his understanding.
left a word out
This is not about his understanding Now.
Hey Friend - I understand your frustration. To me the word is yet another piece of treasure for many to seek out - The ultimate Prize.
Telling you to go off and do whatever or give you some kind of prescription I think does little to help. Best I can say, is that I don't mix with society because I think "indeed - it's a sham" To me, the whole group is rather an addicted bunch - I'm not currently equipped to brace the illness and or help others as it be. Perhaps later as I heal myself, I may be able to better assist - contribute. Unfortunately, most contributions seem to come with a measure based on position, wealth and education - again the sham of which I get the feel you understand well.
Buddhism is as much rife with much the same fallibilities as all religions be. -
I hear what your saying - I feel very similar in some of what you say. The best we can do is work with what we know. The least we can do, is tell others how to think or what to say.
Although I'm not that social and quite sick myself, I'm here to try and help with what I can. I think we would do well to give those who need it ... the space they need.
Peace Out Bro's and Sis's