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Alan Watts
Nerima
Veteran
Wow I've heard of AW but never read anything by him until now. I love this. Any thoughts?
1
Comments
He was one of the first Western writers about Zen that I read and I don't think anyone managed to do it better. At the least, a pioneer and explorer who left a huge mark. I don't recall if the book you pictured is one I read, but that's been many years ago.
What about his writing did you find particularly compelling, if I might ask?
He is very good at bringing philosophy and religion together. He is incredibly thought provoking with a very no BS approach.
Very much an entertainer. Please let us know what you think of the book
His style of writing flows naturally as if he is chatting with you.
I like how he first discusses the roots of Buddhism in Hinduism. He describes Hinduism as a religious culture, which is perfect.
I borrowed this book from the public library. It's very small so I can put it in my purse
Many years since I read any Alan Watts, sure it is excellent. Also unfamiliar with that book. I find him a lot more accessible and useful for a Western audience compared to many modern popularists mentioning no names of celebrity guru writers, who offer very limited insight but presentable sound bites . . .
Here he is sitting around . . .
I do not have that book but I did enjoy "The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Really Are" which he also wrote.
I haven't seen that particular title, OP. But the last time I tried to read Alan Watts, I found his writing to be oddly chauvinistic. Strange that it would come across that way, since it's about Buddhism, but I couldn't take it. But you've got me curious now. Maybe I'll get the book, and then we can discuss.
Is anyone else up for a book-club type of discussion?
edit: How about this title, same author: Zen Buddhism - No Buddha: Lessons In Spirituality For An Ego Centered Society ?
Pick a book, and a bunch of us can order it and discuss.
I love listening to Alan Watts; he is certainly entertaining and helps me look at stuff in a different way that what I ever would've thought about by myself. I've listened to heaps of his talks.
But I'm pretty sure the guy was an alcoholic, from what I've read about him, which makes me think if he was that wise, why couldn't he do without the booze?
Maybe he was unbalanced, human, a drunken master, an asshole or . . . an alcoholic
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_Yin_Yang
Not drinking may have required a level of self control he had no need of, capacity or aptitude for. He may like most of us just have been a hypocrite. Personally I too like the guys books and YouTube vids that I have seen. I will not be indulging in alcohol because of him . . .
I would be impressed by anyone teaching and changing destructive or unskilfull behaviour . . . ah well another flawed individual . . . back to the search for the perfect master (who I have heard only has perfect students - that is me out)
Alan Watts is said to have suffered from alcoholism, yes. That was brought up soon after his death and used as a criticism of the man. But, he was not a monk and made no claims to being enlightened, and back then drinking was just part of the culture, as was smoking. He had a heart condition of some sort and his drinking certainly didn't help that. He managed to live an active touring and lecturing life up until his death.
You can comprehend the Dharma without being able to live up to its teachings. He was also married and divorced several times, as I recall. I suppose he'd say a clear mind doesn't mean you get to lead a perfect life. It's just a life, with both good and bad included.
Most definitely an alchoholic. That and probably more. The only answer to your question, provided you really want one, could only come from him, and he is, conveniently, dead. I say convenient, because the fact that he can no longer come forward for comment.
However, @Tosh, we can ask you. You're a recovering alchoholic, right? That means that at one time you couldn't do without, either. Why?
Its often said that it’s a fine line between a genius and a mad man. Watts is a genius . but he was not wise, in fact he was foolish because how he lived his life.
He talks the talk, but he did not walk the walk.
Talking and doing is 2 different things. And I can testify to that from my personal experience.
What walk was he supposed to be on?
I dunno, to be honest. I think it was my inability to manage my feelings and emotions. I couldn't stand how I felt sober and this forced me to drink. That Tosh that used to have to get drunk everyday seems a world away from where I'm at now.
But this makes me think that Alan had the knowledge in his head, but not the wisdom in his heart. I've an A.A. mentor, he's been sober for a long time. I wouldn't want to have someone who can't control their drinking (or whose not comfortable sober) as a teacher since that would (maybe mistakenly?) imply - to me - that there's something missing there.
If you're looking for a teacher that's "complete" (whatever that means), may I suggest that you not hold your breath. No one is complete. All are flawed, if you look deeply enough. However, a "perfect" teacher need not be a perfect being. Buddhism is full of teachers like that. Forget the 20th century, and look to the past - all the great Mahasiddhas were a touch looney, unconventional, and, of course, flawed. Tilopa is said to have hit his student Naropa on the forehead with his sandal. Not exactly in a conservative view, but we must also remember that, as a result, Naropa awakened, on the spot. Naropa's student Marpa abused his student Milarepa. Stories abound illustrating Padmasambhava's "ecentricities". The perfect teacher is one who brings you towards Awakening. What difference does it make that he or she is flawed? The purpose of the Path is not to have everything just perfect. The purpose is to awaken.
We can and perhaps should dismiss teachers, but what if that teacher actually has something of profound value to share in spite of his or her flaws. Trungpa Rinpoche is without any doubt the most deeply flawed teacher I've ever heard of. Yet, I can't help but see something of a profound genius in the man's teaching and this is supported by dozens of first-hand account of people I know personally who studied and practiced under his direction. Many are exceptional teachers in their own right. His legacy has had a profound, and I'd like to think a beneficial influence on me as a Buddhist.
Alan Watts was an alchoholic. It led to a premature death. Tragic. We can certainly dismiss him for his faults, and I'm sure they are legion, but in doing so we may risk missing that sandal-to-the-head that finally awakens us.
Alan Watts....When it comes to explaining spirituality (Zen), he had a knack of "effing the ineffable" "Making sense out of non sense"
I think, unlike Suzuki, he didn't idealize Zen and the people who taught and practiced it over the centuries in Japan. He was always looking for parallels and similarities with other spiritual practices.
That is such an interesting subject to me, probably made more interesting by my own alcoholic reaction to drinking.
Alcoholism is SO physical. I think it is equally as physical a condition as any well-known health malady. Would anyone cluck their tongue at a diabetic Teacher and wonder if he/she was THAT wise, why their blood sugars would be so difficult to control?
Chogyam Trumpa is the best known bottomless alcoholic teacher I'm aware of (surely there are others). Who can deny he was inspired? His alcoholism was a parallel process occurring in his body, which demanded the alcohol just to feel 'normal'. What that has to do with his inspiration, Awake-ness, whatever . . . ? Nothing.
We're still trying to understand fully what in the hell alcoholism is, and are learning more and more about conventionally PHYSICAL illnesses every day. I think the more we learn about alcoholic drinking, the more we'll understand alcoholism as beginning within a physical process. Just because it AFFECTS the mental/emotional/psychological/spiritual experience of the individual doesn't mean those realms have a causal connection to alcoholism. The more we learn about schizophrenia, the more obvious its origins are in a maladaptive pattern of brain structure and chemistry.
My take on Alan Watts is this,
He had a particular western mind-set in a particular historical time thread, and I identify with it; but you must take what you feel is right and discernible to be true to your satisfaction. From what he says - and although he experimented with psychedelics etc, and did not hide that fact (and I have too), he describes the world in a metaphysical way, that cannot be challenged as it is pure statement of fact as can be realised. I have faith that he had an acceptable realisation of Eastern traditions, but with a sound Western cultural and theologic background. For some his recordings will be helpful, but you can get stuck in his own theology. Remember, it is you who are responsible for your own life and order. Take what is relevant, discard what is unnecessary for now. Return to his talks if you feel you will benefit from them; for now I have heard enough of him. It gets a little repetitive, and although repetition is regarded as the key to learning; there must come a time when you free yourself from the repetitious samsaric behaviours that cause you distress or dissatisfaction - so my advice is to take your own advice on Alan Watts.
For those of you who are prepared to follow your acknowledged guru, if you have one, and are prepared to follow your guru faithfully, then don't be distracted by this particular person who desired himself to be seen as an entertainer, or 'the joker' as I understand from his podcasts that someone is making 'loads-a-money' from, as your guru will see your faults and write a prescription based on your particular faults and requirements to see the world as it is.
I started a thread some time ago about whether Western philosophy and Eastern philosophies lead to the same thing. It did not lead anywhere - but that was expected.
They do have a common denominator and you are it, as it goes, and Alan Watts, (interesting his surname indicates a unit of power is it not ...\lol/...) but having practitioners of particular lineages who know you and can see where you are going wrong in your thought and meditative processes etc. is sometimes necessary for progression.
Wishing you all well on the path to liberation!
Anataman
The only physical part of alcoholism is that when I put alcohol into my body, it kicks off a craving for more.
It's a MENTAL illness in that I had a mental obsession with booze and I couldn't stop myself from putting the first drink in me, thereby triggering the craving; turning the whole thing into a not-very-nice circle.
I recovered from my alcoholism, not by taking some physical tablet, but by following a spiritual program of recovery.
You can't cure diabetes with a spiritual program of action can you? But you sure can recover from alcoholism with one; my experience, and legions of recovered alcoholics prove this.
So it's certainly not a physical illness. We don't have some gland that forces booze down our greedy necks; it's an obsession of the mind.
I really enjoy his views but I enjoyed it even more when I was in the psychedelic stage. It's hard to say he didn't walk the walk because he put a lot of stock in the drug induced state. He may not have walked the walk some would have liked but he practiced what he preached.
And he is now being influential, or otherwise others are making easy gains from his influence!
Look at what is happening on the net regarding the 'wisdom of his teachings' - it wasn't his wisdom, and he blatantly attributed it to people before him, it has been the wisdom passed down through the ages - but he gave the game away a little too much to people who must be seen as prophetic profiting idiots it seems!
You should listen to some of his teachings btw as he regarded his 'teachings' in such a way that he exclaimed it would be a real laugh to call him a guru. He was stating facts, and those facts can be self-verified. RIP AW!
My goodness I vehemently disagree with quite a few points you make! It will totally derail this thread though, and in the great scheme of things, where we seem to disagree could be matters of perspective rather than some 'truth'. The only reason I'll stand firm is on 'authority' of my own alcoholism experience.
Alcohol changes the physiology of our bodies, and that's not under voluntary control. While it does that, a person's intelligence, integrity, compassion and wisdom are not necessarily blemished and rendered 'unintelligent' and so forth SIMPLY because the person has alcohol fumes rippling the air around them.
To try and stay close to the topic, what I believe strongly is that Alan Watts, Trungpa along with many others are not babies to be thrown out with their alcoholic or drug addled bathwater. Their addiction(s) don't automatically cheapen their teachings. I remember one of my college instructors making the claim that Sigmund Freud's contribution to modern psychiatry was a joke because he was a cocaine addict. Made sense to me! Twenty five years later, I'm not so sure.
This doesn't reduce my absolute conviction that I might as well put a gun to my head as pick up a bottle of booze. My views are just more flexible. It's part of why I spent YEARS seeing, feeling and relating to addictions through a 12 step world view only to semi-discard it because it has doctrines and dogma as abundant as any religion and they demand faith I don't have. One of the dogmas is that as long as you are drinking, your life is shit and almost worthless, nothing good comes from a person actively engaged in their addiction. I don't buy that for a second. The evidence is in our faces.
Alan Watts's stuff isn't rendered 'wrong' or unworthy of study because he was a raging alcoholic WHILE he was generating a lot of it.
We are all generating shit - so we are all essentially the same @Hamsaka. I generally agree with the majority of your comments above, apart from those which are overtly criticised henceforth! ...\lol/...
Being that this is the very first book by AW I've ever read, i profess to knowing very little of him. I know very little of anything, but that's another topic altogether.
I didn't know AW was an alcoholic. It's a moot point to me because my own dad was an alcoholic, and he was an awesome man. I think Dad was a "functional alcoholic"...he never missed a day of work, and was highly regarded by his colleagues. He also provided for his family and put me through college. My point is that some of us are addicted to drugs and/or alcohol but that doesn't diminish their work or contributions to society. Family life suffers, alas, but all families deal with their own problems. So what? That's life. I have yet to meet the Perfect Family.
the moon walk ?
What walk was he supposed to be on?
Also if the book was so good why is not part of the educational curriculum, so small and egotistically have the author on the front etc?
Wait a minute I know the answer to this one . . . [lobster brain cogs turning] . . . 'do not judge a book by its cover'.
Easier said then done because we expect those who teach, lecture, expound to live up to the principals they are unfolding. So I feel it is a fair question why if a teaching is so good does it fail to transform basic flaws?
My feeling is flawed individuals are attracted to potential solutions. Very often as in Alan Watts case they are able to present what they have discovered, which has been helpful both to them and others.
Do not look at my outward shape, but take what is in my hand.
Jelaluddin Rumi, the great Sufi mystic and teacher, born in Afghanistan in 1207 A.D.
And you're welcome too!
I think that depends. Many alcoholics certainly do a lot of 'unintelligent things'; including drinking. And I'm not talking about intelligence anyway, I'm talking about a kind of wisdom that can't really be put into words. I don't think we're disagreeing too much to be honest; I think what you're really saying is that there isn't a moral component to alcoholism - it's not a moral failing - and I agree. Decades of research by neuroscience shows alcoholism to be a chronic disease of the brain (I have references I can cite), as as such, that's not up for debate.
Nope; you've obviously misunderstood the 12 Step world view. Many members, particularly in the secular UK are agnostic and atheist and it creates no problems. I can cite all kinds of stuff to prove this point, even the writings of cult co-founder, Bill W. Have a google for Jim Burwell too; the militant agnostic (a hard-line atheist is more truthful); who was also a founding member. The only dogma we have is around our drinking, such as a period of sobriety won't turn us into normal drinkers, and anyone is welcome to test that should they wish.
I never said they did, however I did ask how someone as apparently knowledgeable as Watts ended up with numerous failed relationships, children who felt abandoned by him and an alcoholic? And for the record, I think Watts is class; I'm not knocking the guy.
But neither do I stick people up on pedestals either. They say if you do, you'll end up getting kicked in the teeth.
That was great. Can I quote you?
Yes, but it's not mine. I'm not very original, I'm afraid.
Oh! Where'd it come from - just curious.
I heard it in A.A.. My A.A. sponsor said, early on in our relationship, not to put him on a pedestal, otherwise he'd kick me in the teeth.
He's not kicked me in the teeth yet.
Any discussion of Alan Watts usually ends up debating what it means that such a remarkable and wise man ended up an alcoholic. Was he inspirational and wise? Yes. Was he an alcoholic and that might have hastened his death? Yes. So we keep asking each other, what does that mean?
It means a person can be an alcoholic and still be inspirational and wise. That's all.
If he claimed to be perfect, or above all desires, or enlightened, then we might suspect he was a bit self-deluded. Although, I would suspect that of anyone who made such claims no matter how pure their behavior seemed to be. But in this case, I've thought about it before and have my own conclusion.
People keep trying to stick a label on him that doesn't fit. People look at him, and imagine he must be playing the role of an Enlightened Guru, or Zen Master, or Spiritual Leader. But his life and teachings don't fit the mold, so we blame him for not living up to our ideals of what we think he was.
I look at his writings and life, and see a poet philosopher. That's all. I would have loved to sit for a while and, yes, have a drink with him, if that's what he wants. We'd let our minds and thoughts wander down whatever path they take us to. Our understandings would differ at times, and that would be our delight, to explore and test our ideas against each other.
It would be a wonderful evening.
Alan Watts was just the finger pointing at.... not the moon....
I like someone's explanation above, that Watts was a scholar, nothing more, nothing less. He wrote as an authority on Buddhism as a scholar, not as a teacher or holy man. He didn't have a sangha, he wasn't in the role of teacher or master. He was a writer. Just a regular Joe, an ordinary human, who had studied Buddhist texts.
That's where people get confused, I think. I'm not even sure he ever claimed to be a practitioner, as in--meditating and keeping vows/precepts. I think it's pretty clear he wasn't.
For those who may not know, an interesting side note is that after returning from his travels in Tibet, Lama Anagarika Govinda lived with Watts on his houseboat in Sausalito, California. The two were good friends, apparently. Lama Govinda was a German scholar of Buddhism and a brilliant writer on the subject. His book, Way Of The White Clouds, like Watts' books on Zen, served for many as the gateway to their exploration of Buddhism.
Alan Watts was a NODE not a SINK - not going to explain those terms as you'll have to make a journey of enquiry to gain the relevant knowledge! That's what should happen when you enter a path with a thirst for knowledge!
When your thirst is quenched, please feel free to expound further on Alan Watts; if you feel able too!
...\lol/...
[ that alcoholism is mental, not physical ]
I have alcoholic tendencies on one side of my family tree. Only the females on that side had it, not the males, through several generations. I don't have any evidence for this, but I feel there's a definite physical (genetic) link. And I recall a (probably apocryphal) story of the little old lady who never took a drink in her life, but then had cough medicine prescribed that included alcohol...and became an alcoholic.
He was quite a functional functioning alcoholic if ever there was one...
When you realise you are part of the world, as much as the world is part of you, then you might connect with the true reality!
Sure there's a genetic link; if you give my family tree a kick, the alcoholics fall out of it like nuts.
But putting what I wrote in context, someone compared the physicality of diabetes with alcoholism, and my point is that diabetes is often treated with medicines (like insulin), whereas alcoholism is classified as a mental illness and can be treated with a spiritual program of recovery. Out of all the different approaches to the treatment of alcoholism, the 12 Steps (a spiritual program of action) has probably helped more alcoholics recover from alcoholism than all the other approaches, all added up, and then some more.
But our brains are physical things, and the neuroscientists say alcoholism is a chronic disease of the brain. So in that sense, sure, alcoholism is a product of our physical brains. It's a funny thing to think that our non-physical minds can affect the structure of our brains too, so I guess that's how the spiritual program of recovery works, and when contrasted with diabetes, no amount of spiritual training will help a damaged pancreas to recover, as far as I know.
And despite all this talk of 'chronic diseases of the brain', I personally like to think that alcoholics are the elite of all mental health problems, but I guess being an alcoholic myself, I ought to keep my ego in check.
A functional alcoholic is just a stage of progression towards a non-functioning/badly functioning alcoholic. As a functioning alcoholic I was a Warrant Officer in the British army. Then when I became unable to function, I unceremoniously departed the military before I was pushed. You know, street alcoholics were not born there, they progressed there.
It's a bit like someone whose in the early stages pregnancy and their 'bump' is just starting to show. Alcoholism is a bit like that; but wait long enough and, like pregnancy, it'll become more obvious as time wears on.
Unless of course they die, like Alan did, aged 58 years old. Like most alcoholics when they die, 'alcoholism' isn't given as a cause of death, but you can be sure it would be a major contributing factor*. Life expectancy in the USA in 1973, for men, was 71 years old.
Had he lived for longer and remained unrecovered, who knows where he would've ended up?
*Why did the Buddhist coroner get sacked from his job? Because he kept on writing 'Birth' as the cause for death.
You iz funny!
Alan Watts seemed very serious.
I probably nicked that joke from here!
And Alan Watts was funny.
This pretty much puts it the way I meant to say earlier. As a westerner, I tend to separate my brain and body, equating my brain more with my mind. It's more like the brain and body are vehicles for mind, are instruments by which mind manifests in all it's multifariousness. The 'nonphysical mind' might be a kind of false distinction, or a distinction we'd have to be much more 'awake' to appraise realistically. Bottom line, what difference does it make (rhetorical question)?
As a nurse, I can say that I've cared for hundreds of diabetics who refuse to take care of themselves -- a 'spiritual' problem of self care and self respect. No amount of diabetic education, oversight, or subjecting them to perfect diabetic care helps that 'spiritual' deficit in self respect/care. For alcoholism, the simplest thing is to never drink alcohol, but because of the dovetailing interface of the brain/body and mind, a spiritual intervention is as necessary as avoiding alcohol altogether. Looking at it like this, it's not so funny a thing that our non-physical 'mind' has everything to do with the structure of the brain. What difference does it make in terms of resolution and recovery?
As a girl, I grew up watching my grandmother who lived with us, struggle with this diabolical disease. I saw as much overwhelm as I did lack of self-care and self-respect. They didn't know as much about it back then and even today, the standard medical protocol isn't 'enough' because it ignores so many new facts, such as the pollutants and additives to our foods (antibiotics, pesticides, gmo, plastics), and the fact that many if not most of our agriculture is grown in soil depleted of the minerals and nutrients it once had long long ago which all are factors. I think I sensed that my grandma felt that it was a sort of punishment so there's such an emotional facet to diabetes.
My wife was a diabetic for most of our marriage, first on insulin but eventually was able to move to just pills and a careful diet. She would often neglect her monitoring and let her diet slide, and I'd have to get onto her when it was obvious she wasn't feeling good. The reason is very human. We want to live normal lives.
Day after day of poking herself to test her blood and worrying about what that extra slice of desert is going to do to her glucose level would get to her. I could see it coming. It's like she'd snap, and her mind would decide, "I've had enough. I feel fine. I'm not going to worry if my blood sugar is 90 or 190 after every damned meal. I'm going to eat what I want and not care about what it does to me. I'm going to live a normal life."
Eventually, maybe a few weeks later, she'd start getting headaches and I'd make her test her blood and she'd get mad and maybe cry on my shoulder because it was way too high and we'd start it all again.
I understand why it's very common to have problems getting diabetics to keep up their treatment and monitoring. I doubt there's many diseases that require such constant sustained effort to make it through the day.
I'm not sure if this has anything to do with Alan Watts, now that I think of it. Perhaps a bit of wandering too far off the topic?
I was instrumental in derailing this thread! Esp for the diabetes part.
The POINT of inserting this into the conversation is the conundrum of how a person so obviously impaired as Watts, CTR, and too many other serious contributors to mention, can give SO MUCH wisdom to the rest of us, and be such a vessel of the transcendent or divine or whatever WHILE pickling their brains.
Can a raging seething alcoholic have anything of value to say? Or is their contribution suspect, because of the impairment of their addiction/mental illness?
My personal take is YES, they can be, and naturally there is negative impact on the value of their contribution. I am like anyone else, I slide into the ease and speed of stereotyping, straw man, baby and the bathwater, and I probably hijacked this thread to dig into my own automatic thoughts and attitudes.
I was reading Amazon reviews on CTR's books and often a reviewer would get stuck on his alcoholism and sexual excesses as evidence his whole message was worthless. I can sort of relate to how EASY it would be to bring down the boom and write him or Alan Watts off. We DO that to each other all the time, write each other off as worthless because of some glaring immoral deficit. OK, I struggle to get past that for mySELF
. Not that I go 'round every day about it, but it lurks in the background 
you know?
I 'know better' but tell that to the rest of the committee :disappointed_relieved:
If Alan Watts was just a drunk, then so am I. The rest of my life, no matter what good I've done, is cast in shadow to my personal impairments, shortcomings, immoral acts.
This is an example of how socially engaged Buddhism begins WITHIN your own self. When and as I forgive myself, let go of moralizing against my past behaviors, I also ease up on others, from those close to me to those much 'farther away' who we watch engage in destruction. I save the baby and throw out the bathwater.
The Buddha's 4NT & 8FP unlocked my heart & mind...and Alan Watts' words blew my mind apart ...Here's an example (One of many).....
"Try and image going to sleep and never wake up"
I can't help being disappointed that their wisdom could not do much about the choices they made about their own, though, and I am not being judgemental here.
Years ago, I met a couple of neighbours who were both psychoanalysts, apparently very proficient in their profession.
Their awful rows and door-slammings were crowned with a painful divorce.
I could never understand how these people could advise their patients on the best way to improve their lives when that wisdom did so little for the quality of their own.