Is There Room For Rudeness & Meanness In Ones Dharma Practice ?
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
Greetings & Respect ....
Thus I have heard "There is no such thing as a stupid question......Only stupid answers!"
Some members ask many questions, expecting answers that will help further their practice in some way, And at times these questions can come across as somewhat repetitive,(it would seem that the asker wants to cross all the t's and dot all the i's ...which is fair enough) however this can lead to a harsh response by other members whom it would seem have run out of "patience", they either belittle the questioning member or voice their frustration and impatience at the member's lack of understanding or worse still the 'mob mentality' takes over and the poor member is attacked from all sides (I can only smile at the irony as I write this) ...
Now I know for all of us "Buddhas in training" we each have our own way of expressing our understanding when it come to Dharma practice...But is rudeness & meanness (and dare I say arrogance) really what the Buddha would recommend ? Are we really teaching a Dharma lesson ? Or is it just another one of our defilements surfacing (coated in an artificial Dharmic sweetener) ?
Putting "Pride" aside...Do you think that rudeness/meanness and impatience have a place in Dharma practice ?
And now a word from our sponsor Rasta Bob.........
"Who the cap fits"
Comments
Quite simply. No.
We are not teachers. We are all just brothers and sisters of dharma.
In that respect it is never okay to unload one's lack of patience on another regardless of how ridiculous they are.
If you are willing to respond to another. Then you should respect them by crafting an elegant response that caters to their need on the basis of how you personally experienced that situation.
Most debate is about things that people have no personal experience and thus have to resort to theory. People can read a book. Send a book.
Respect must go both ways though. You can ask respectfully, in a friendly manner or as a smartass/douchebag. If you choose the latter, well you get what you give. It's human nature.
Time to don the full metta-jacket again.....
Sometimes, people 'forget' themselves. Sometimes, as happens with all human beings, people let rip, when they shouldn't.
To be honest though, if we're thinking of people being rude, mean or simply bad-tempered on this forum, in comparison to some other forums I have known, we're actually a pretty nice bunch. No, we are. Honest.
"An eye for an eye will make the world blind" Gandi
There is also the other end of the spectrum...where we resort to over sentimentality because we "should" be "good" buddhists, which is just dressed up dharma in protestantism.
Making intentions clear is very simple. Even though this is a limited medium. People can read the tone and intention behind a message. Sometimes force is necessary. It just depends on the capacity of the individual responding.
For instance I teach art to middle schoolers. How I respond to them depends totally on what the situation calls for. If a student is harming another then yes the volume goes up. But it never stays there. Compassion can be anger is used accurately and with total clear intentions.
But we have to really honest with ourselves. And not resort to just rounding every corner off because we are scared to offend others. This is a form of keeping people in check, in order, etc. Dharma is a pretty revolutionary view. It pretty much goes against the human logic or human beings assertion of how things are.
So its really hard.
But we can always focus on what we do have control over. Well if we practice of course. We have control over our intentions. The following through of those intentions. And then the actual completion of the intentions.
And if we mess up. We should have the "balls" to apologies. What we say not only effects the individual but effects the atmosphere of the whole forum or post.
*Ghandi
And practising Idiot Compassion helps no one.
I'm assuming this is a rhetorical question @Shoshin?
The instant dharma becomes about my dharma verse your dharma.
This isn't dharma. This is just politics and human beings bantering over their favorite sports teams.
The instant one has the fire to help others realize what awesome realization they had then really one should examine that because it will only lead to being a zealot on the mission to save all sentient beings from their mistaken perceptions.
Then one should really look at oneself and question. certainty is always questionable.
and then again people are so over sensitive as well. we never have a clue who is behind these posts. how their day went. what their year is like. maybe they are dealing with stress? maybe someone died. it's all highly questionable and really we should examine it all because it only leads to humility in the fact that really even though we think its clear it could be otherwise.
ha and if one is sensitive to some criticism or some anger on an internet forum. then my god get off this thing and get some air. life goes on. who cares?
Yes, it was just food for thought.... but what will be will be
@taiyaki
"we never have a clue who is behind these posts. how their day went. what their year is like. ,maybe they are dealing with stress? maybe someone died. it's all highly questionable and really we should examine it all because it only leads to humility in the fact that really even though we think its clear it could be otherwise."
Precisely
Oh good grief... rhetorical questions.....!
It didn't strike me as rhetorical at all, but that's just me.
NO, there's no room or place for cruelty or meanness in a dharma practice. Typically what comes across as mean or cruel is like you said, impatience. What, you haven't figured it out yet? I explained it SO WELL, what's the mattah with you?
I suspect it doesn't FEEL 'mean' while it's being written. Mostly the intention is not to give a hard smack and shame someone.
We say to others what we most commonly say to ourselves. A person who comes off as very critical is seething inside with too much self criticism. It's no excuse for bad behavior but it does 'explain' a bit.
One statement said to five individuals will get different responses, having moved through five different sets of sense doors with their filters and assumptions. Otherwise we'd all be the same, mainly because we ARE the same
I've moderated on two different support forums for domestic abuse over the years. Let's just say I much prefer to be one of the chickens. It's difficult to hold down the fort when mob mentality flames up. The villagers with pitchforks are no fun for moderators either.
I agree this place is uniquely patient and agreeable, it's why I hang out at least once a day. I have grown fond of the curmudgeons. Uniquely lovable curmudgeons, which I suspect is something that can only happen in a well moderated board. Shit rolls down hill, and where I'm at, there ain't a lot of shit! I appreciate that very much!
It would seem its hit a nerve for some...I'm just saying what "some" are thinking when the mob attacks happen....Are they really necessary/beneficial ?
I think attacking suspect members can be thrilling and it becomes a feeding frenzy so to speak. I am as guilty as the next guy. By suspect members I mean some who kind of hit the nerve. The reason isn't merely excitement and a feeding frenzy. Sometimes we get a member who is kind of toxic and I feel they should be challenged. I can't explain this exactly but I do feel that sometimes we get toxic members.
Should we be challenging them ? Or our attitude towards them @jeffery ?
I think both. We should be skillful but still challenge them.
there ain't a lot of shit! I appreciate that very much!
A person whose constipated will beg to differ
But are others thinking it? We all have a keyboard and can interject. Maybe they really do agree and are keeping quiet. Or maybe they've flagged the post for a mod. We don't know.
I have real issues with posts that chastise in the guise of being peacemaker or "reminding" us of the Dharma. And here's why - it's cowardly. If you see a post you disagree with, speak up at the time. Even if to ask for clarification. You've even said that we could be misinterpreting the intention of the poster. It doesn't hurt to ask and it's certainly more skillful. Also, if anyone's going to do a group chastising, it should be the mods and administrators.
That's true...But it's the "skilfulness" that's the sticky part...
At times it seems like it's the trigger happy, tongue lashing approach as opposed to the calm Zen-like manner-with no anger or frustration in the tone...
Absolutely.
You have every right to feel the way you do @dhammachick, and you can disagree with all what I've said...Whatever floats your boat...And there's no anger or frustration packed ino these words...
"Fabulous"
Indeed. And there's no anger in mine either. Just stating an opinion like you.
I agree with all of that in principal; though, the part where steady members could ask for clarification or whatever, sometimes peeps aren't up to it because of their own private issues. But I've known the feeling of wondering why doesn't somebody say something ... so sometimes, I do.
Sometimes a question and answer session, breaks through to the heart of what dharma really is! It's a method to bring realisation and dialogue is so important. Of course be rude or mean, nice or clean, but as pointed out above motivation and intention, thats what paves and supports the path of the life we lead...
So no matter how repetitive and boring the same questions repeatedly come from beginners, middlers and enders, what lies behind them serves as reminders of how we continue to reflect on ourselves and view ourselves in that reflection.
Sometimes it's nice
Sometimes its not
Sometimes its cold
Sometimes its hot
Steady of mind
We relax and unwind
But unsteady minds
May well be unkind
Just Thoughts....
Often right speech is no speech.
Depends who is speaking I suppose?
So Oz has a Buddha training school too then ?
"Brillient"
We bloody need one!!!!
Pema Chodron is on Facebook and this is what she suggests when we feel we need to correct people:
"The on-the-spot practice of being fully present, feeling your heart, and greeting the next moment with an open mind can be done at any time: when you wake up in the morning, before a difficult conversation, whenever fear or discomfort arises. This practice is a beautiful way to claim your warriorship, your spiritual warriorship. In other words, it is a way to claim your courage, your kindness, your strength. Whenever it occurs to you, you can pause briefly, touch in with how you're feeling both physically and mentally, and then connect with your heart-even putting your hand on your heart, if you want to. This is a way of extending warmth and acceptance to whatever is going on for you right now. You might have an aching back, an upset stomach, panic, rage, impatience, calmness, joy-whatever it is, you can let it be there just as it is, without labeling it good or bad, without telling yourself you should or shouldn't be feeling that way. Having connected with what is, with love and acceptance, you can go forward with curiosity and courage. I call this step "taking a leap."
(From Pema's book "Living Beautifully with Uncertainty and Change")"
My personal experience with the site was that the first days after joining in, I was immediately harassed and ganged up against by certain members on the spot, no matter what I posted.
) and realize that whatever I write, it is always my point of view and people don't need to agree with me.
Partly through my own fault, because I am aware that I can come across as too self-assured (possibly pedantic to some) in my convictions and that can piss some people off.
And partly, as I understood later through noticing similar treatment on other newbies, it is a sort of acid test the members pass on newcomers to filter trolls and pseudo-enlightened nutcases from the "real deal."
Took a lot of gumption on my part to continue posting until somewhere down the path, I began to gain the feeling that I belonged.
To me, it was an important lesson in humility because I learnt to water down my speech, hopefully develop some well-needed right speech (
Another issue is the case of almost invariably the same people asking the same questions under a different guise over and over again, sometimes the same week, and I'd say understandably, after a while, that can grate even the most dharmic sensitivities.
I've been actively participating on the site for like six months, and sometimes it is almost impossible not to repeat yourself time after time.
It grows old after a while.
And in this case, if answers sometimes verge on rudeness and impatience, I am of the opinion that the OP is as guilty of charge as the members who pounce back.
Honestly, members go a long way to answer questions and exchange different points of view for every thread. Comments are positively long-winded and there is a lot of support on the part of the members.
How can it be that some people always manage not to get their questions answered?
My secret feeling, too, is that these same people somehow expect us to do their personal homework and walk the path for them.
It's always hard being the new kid on the block. I remember messaging Aunt Fede and saying...."Aghhhh....what do I do? It's so hard being a newbie"...She re assured me it's part of the experience and everyone was once new. It's an experience only you can go through to figure this thing out.
I disagree that there is any 'ganging' going on. How in the world can we control the number of like minded people agreeing on a topic? Say your opinion....stick to it or dont. Own your stuff. The gangs I know kick your ass and force you through social, physical, and economic means to do harm to others. We sit here and conversate....hardly gang activity. We do not insult and if anything, most of us sign off at the sign of serious conflict. I have gotten into heated discussions with two other women here...and we both threw a little shade....and they both will be getting Christmas cards from me. Why? The heart is golden and their intentions have been nothing but good towards me. Just part of learning to get along in the same sandbox and learning to hang out with people who are different than you.
Dharma is not all unicorns and bunnies...as much as I would love it be...hahahaha.
The rude and mean people get quickly dealt with by Aunt Fede or an admin. If you are expecting me to promise never to have a rough day with impatience or not be frank and blunt.....then you might not have spent enough time here with me. I might even say something you don't want to hear and vice versa. The active ones and even lurkers who spend enough attention....get to know each other's ways....and intentions and how we each operate.
This OP is rocking the boat...IMO. You are more than welcome to be here with the group (not gang)....and putting positive seeds out there and setting an example is more productive than asking a question you already know the answer to.
One of my fav Bob songs.....
Oh please...dont rock my boat...I like it like this....:)...
@Shoshin
Rudeness and meanness are very subjective and are better described by their intent than by how they are received. Tough to do on the Net.
However...
Trolls,
folks with the same thinly veiled criticisms of Buddhism presented as questions to which they don't appear to ever hear any answers to
and
love & light drivelists
can be assured that I always love them all in the nastiest way possible..
I appreciate your opinion @Vastmind ....that's what it's all about...
True @how,
But even Trolls are "suffering" otherwise they wouldn't be trolling.....
We might call it the dharma heritage. Civility and courtesy means we do welcome the people we once were. I would suggest we change. We are on a path.
Being kind when we wish to scream is part of the monkey mind settling advocated by the 'meditation uber alles' alliance. Some are on other aspects of the journey. Screaming at themselves, the nearest email or the hot soup for example.
Kindness by example. Iz a plan . . .
No cushions were used in this comment to spare the unsettled.
Being kind when we wish to scream is part of the monkey mind settling advocated by the 'meditation uber alles' alliance. Some are on other aspects of the journey. Screaming at themselves, the nearest email or the hot soup for example.
Kindness by example. Iz a plan . . .
True @lobster,
We are all at different stages of the path, finding our "own" way through the banana trees of life...
Yeah, no shit
A person with Diarrhea would beg to differ
I think we're done here, frankly.