It's the thought that counts. Or does it?
MattMVS7
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First off, there are two versions of good and bad. The first comes from our thoughts, actions, personal created meanings in life, and from other people and other things in life. The 2nd version comes from our pleasure and suffering. The 1st version is only good and bad in a neutral sense. Meaning, that they are not the truly good and bad things in life and don't make us and our lives truly good or bad. While the 2nd version of good and bad that comes from our pleasure and suffering are the true version of good and bad that makes us and our lives truly good or bad. Our thoughts of good and bad are the scientific properties good and bad (since our thoughts of good and bad are the combined functioning of those atoms and particles in our brains that create those thoughts). However, they are the neutral scientific properties good and bad while the scientific properties good and bad that come from our pleasure and suffering are the actual version of good and bad (which would be the version that many people refer to when saying good and bad which would be the version that really does make them and their lives truly good or bad and is not the neutral version of good and bad). Now immediately before you object to what I just said here, I am going to post very convincing reasons backing up my claims here.
I am going to walk you through an example of how all our thoughts are neutral (neither good or bad). For example, go ahead and say a word in your mind that is neutral to you (which would obviously be a thought). Maybe you can say a number in your mind such as the number 16 which would be nothing more than just a number to you that is neither good or bad. Therefore, all other thoughts we have in life are all the same in that sense as well since they are also nothing more than neutral sounds, images, numbers, words, etc. that cannot make us or our lives anything actually good without our pleasure and it's only our own pleasure that makes us and our lives anything good. You might be thinking something such as that the only reason why that number you created in your mind in that given example was neutral was only because of the fact that you have attributed a neutral value to it. But this would be false. There was no attributed value whatsoever to it. Therefore, the only reason why it was neutral to you was because of the fact that you were able to see that number for what it really was. And that would be the fact that it was nothing more than just a number. You were not blinded by any other attributed meanings of good and bad to fool yourself into thinking that number was something good or bad. You have first said that number to yourself in your mind and at the time it was neither neutral and neither good or bad (it was nothing more than just a number to you). Then, from there, based on that experience, you have then concluded that it was neutral. This neutral value judgement you have given is not false at all and doesn't make anything I'm saying false. This would be because, when we say something is neutral (such as our thoughts and personal created meanings in life being neutral), then what we are saying here is that these thoughts are nothing more than just thoughts. That they are nothing more than words, sounds, images, etc. So this would be true.
Therefore, this also applies to all other thoughts and personal created meanings we have in life as well since they are also nothing more than just neutral sounds, words, images, etc. Even our own thoughts of good and bad are nothing more than just neutral sounds, words, images, etc. just like that neutral number you created in your mind in that given example. Even our own attributed meanings of good and bad to our thoughts of good and bad are all neutral as well. So people are only fooling themselves into thinking that they and their lives are still somehow good without their pleasure. They are fooled by thoughts of good and bad and other created meanings that are perceived as good or bad when, in reality, all these thoughts and created meanings are all neutral. But even now as I am speaking here and saying that number you created in your mind was neutral (including me saying that all our thoughts are neutral), I am attributing a neutral value to them. So you might then be thinking something such as that number and all thoughts and personal created meanings we have in life aren't neutral at all since it was just my attributed neutral value to that number and all other thoughts and was all just my own personal opinion. But this would be false. Here, again, I will say that what I mean by neutral is that when thoughts are nothing more than just thoughts here (that they are no different than that number you created in your mind in that given example which was nothing more than just a number). So what I'm saying is true. Our thoughts are only different in the sense that they are different words, sounds, images, etc. and that they make us perform different actions. But that is it. They are all still neutral. They are simply the different activity of the functioning of our brains that come up with these different thoughts. It would be no different than the different activity of the parts of our brain that make us blink and breathe in different ways and nothing more.
Any perceived logical fallacies in my argument here might hold true for other things in life, but not for what I'm saying here. You might say something such as that "Your logic is false and what you are saying is that you can create an 'ooooh' vowel sound when you sing. Therefore all words you sing have 'oooooh' vowel sounds" in order to try and disprove my argument here. But the fact is that all things in life besides pleasure, pain, and despair are nothing but atoms and particles that are neutral (neither good or bad). But it is only pleasure, pain, and despair in of themselves that are the only good and bad things despite the fact that these things are also the functioning of atoms and particles.
I am also going to explain below how even our own actions including everything else in life are all neutral as well including how only our pleasure and suffering are the only good and bad things in life:
First off, the reason why I state that pleasure is the only good thing is because of the fact that it always feels good in of itself no matter what and no matter what value we attribute to it. Even if we had no knowledge, thoughts, or intelligence whatsoever, and we were to then experience pleasure, our pleasure would still feel good to us anyway. So good is a scientific property which would be our pleasure which would be the combined functioning of the atoms and particles in our brains that give us pleasure as I've stated before and am also stating here to make myself absolutely clear. Same concept applies for bad since pain and despair always feel bad in of themselves no matter what as well. Now I am now going to explain some more as to how our actions and everything else in life are all neutral:
(Note to Reader: This post is continued below)!
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Since all atoms and particles are separate from the atoms and particles of our pleasure, then to say that harming someone in order to give you pleasure makes your pleasure bad, this would be false because the combined atoms and particles of the person suffering and the combined atoms and particles of our thoughts of good and bad as well as other things do not have the same properties of the combined atoms and particles as a whole that make up our pleasure. It would be no different than saying that, since the combined atoms and particles of a piece of metal possess a certain function and properties (which, in this case, we would call "bad"), then that also makes the combined atoms and particles of other materials the same as well (that this also makes them "bad") which is false. Concepts such as good and bad (aside from our experience of pleasure, pain, and despair), these are the subjective thoughts themselves that create these concepts in the brain and are the functioning of the atoms and particles themselves in the brain responsible for the creation of these concepts in the brain that do have scientific properties (though these thoughts are all neutral as I've already stated). And, of course, they are also experiences in of themselves that are the real objective version of good and bad that also have scientific properties (which would be the functioning of the atoms and particles that give us pleasure, pain, and despair). Therefore, our thoughts cannot define our pleasure as being something bad or neutral or our pain and despair as being neutral or good. They also cannot define anything else as being good, bad, or neutral either since they are the separate combined functioning of atoms and particles that have different functions and different properties. Even if they somehow could define other things in life (including even our own thoughts of good and bad) as being good or bad, then it would all still be the neutral scientific properties good and bad. Meaning, that they are not really good and bad at all. Even if other things in life were somehow good or bad, it would all still come back to our own minds since we are only in our own minds and we can only experience our lives from our own perspectives. In other words, it would all still come back to our thoughts of good and bad.
But since those thoughts are all neutral, then knowing and thinking that someone or something is good in life would not make you or your lives anything truly good without your pleasure since that would all just be neutral thoughts as I've just said. There is also no possible way for anything else in life besides our own pleasure and suffering to be good or bad anyway. This would be because if no human beings were born and all that came into existence was the Earth and the universe, then everything would neither be good or bad. It would all just be the functioning of atoms and particles. To say that a piece of metal possesses certain functions and properties would be true. But to say that this piece of metal is good or bad would be false since everything in this universe is all the scientific functioning of atoms and particles and can only be explained through science. Value judgements such as good or bad do not exist in other objects and materials since they are not the combined functioning of atoms and particles that would define good and bad. They instead can only be defined in terms of scientific descriptions such as mass, weight, energy, etc. But value judgements such as good and bad do exist as our thoughts and are the combined functioning of the atoms and particles that make up those thoughts (though they are the neutral version of good and bad while the actual version of good and bad woud be the combined functioning of the atoms and particles that give us pleasure and suffering as I've just said before). Also, what I mean by separate is that if you have one object in your hand and you then have another object in your other hand, then those two objects are separate from one another. This same concept also applies to other objects and other people being separate from our own brains and are separate from our own thoughts and pleasure centers and that our thoughts as well as our own pleasure and suffering cannot define anything else in life as being good or bad from our own perspectives.
Also, if you are going to say something such as that since objects have an effect on each other and that since objects would, therefore, also have an effect on our brains, then that somehow makes those objects and our brains "connected" in that any good or bad thought we come up with would actually define that said object as being good or bad since those objects and other people are somehow "linked" with our thoughts. If this is what you are going to say, then this would be false because in order for the objects to actually be good and bad, then they would have to be the thoughts themselves of good and bad. Our thinking is independent of other objects and other people. Whatever effects those objects have on our brains is not the same thing as our thoughts having an effect on those objects in the sense of making them good or bad. Our thoughts might have some effect on other objects. But it wouldn't be the actual thoughts themselves of good and bad that are projected onto those objects. Rather, it would be different effects on those objects such as gravity, attraction, etc.
(Note to Reader: This post is concluded below)!
Now if you think that something else is good or bad in life, then that doesn't make it good or bad since those other things in life would have to actually have the exact same functioning of all the combined functioning of atoms and particles of our thoughts of good and bad (they would actually have to be those thoughts themselves). Your thoughts also cannot somehow project themselves onto other people, other objects, or even other parts of your brain and make these things good, bad, or neutral. So all these other things in life stand alone as being nothing more than meaningless atoms and particles that are neutral (neither good or bad), our thoughts (though they are those meanings themselves we create) are all still neutral regardless of what meanings they are, while our own pleasure and suffering are the only good and bad things in life. Everything in this universe including all ideas, thoughts, our minds, and actions, these things are all made up of atoms and particles that have scientific properties. Our minds may be different, but they are all still the different functioning and wiring of atoms and particles. Also, I am now going to explain how our pleasure and suffering are the only good and bad things in life:
The version of good many people think of is the version that is not neutral and is the version of good that actually makes them and their lives truly good. However, since all our thoughts are neutral as I've just stated, then anyone who says something such as that they and their lives can still be truly good without their pleasure, then they would be false. This version of good these people are speaking of would, therefore, have to be outside the realm of our neutral thoughts. But as I've also said before, there is nothing else in this life such as other people or even nature itself that is anything good and that these things are also the functioning of meaningless (neutral) atoms and particles that are also neither good or bad. These other things couldn't make us or our lives anything good anyway since we are in our own minds and it would still all come back to our neutral thoughts as I've just said before. Therefore, this version of good would have to be our pleasure. Same thing for bad in that it would only be our pain and despair that would be bad. This would be because they always feel good and bad in of themselves no matter what as I've said before.
So you might then be thinking that I am attributing good and bad value to pleasure and suffering through my thoughts here and that pleasure and suffering can't be anything good or bad either since even my own thoughts of good and bad cannot define my pleasure and suffering as good or bad and that these thoughts cannot project themselves onto my pleasure and suffering and make them good or bad. However, pleasure and suffering are a form of good and bad that doesn't involve our thoughts and has nothing to do with our thoughts and created personal meanings in life. Rather, our thoughts of good and bad (the idea of good and bad that many people have) would refer to the real version of good and bad which would be our pleasure and suffering and nothing else and people are only fooling themselves into thinking otherwise. Pleasure and suffering are the real scientific properties good and bad as I've said before since they always feel good and bad in of themselves no matter what. But you then might also say to me something such as that how we come up with the meanings good and bad in the first place would be through our thoughts, knowledge, and intelligence and that pleasure and suffering cannot always be the only good and bad things in life since good and bad come from our personal value judgements (our thoughts) and is all something subjective. However, as I've just said, the version of good and bad that many people think of is the version that is not neutral. Therefore, this version would have to be our pleasure and suffering.
Also, you are only in your own mind and you are not in the minds of others and this entire life is all from your own perspective. You cannot experience the pleasure and suffering of others and you can only experience your own pleasure and suffering. Therefore, it is only your own pleasure and suffering that are the only good and bad things in life from your own perspective while the pleasure and suffering of others are the only good and bad things in life to them from their own perspectives. The pleasure and suffering of others from your own perspective is nothing more than a neutral thought. Therefore, you can harm others and that would still not make you a bad person. You would still be a good person since only your own pleasure is what defines you and your life as being anything good. How good your life is and how good you are (your level of greatness) is solely determined by the level of pleasure you have.
Therefore, this is the reason why you can even still be a good person if you obtained pleasure from harming even millions of innocent people around the world and this is the reason why you would still be a bad person and/or a neutral person if you had depression and/or anhedonia (emotional numbness) who instead helped millions of innocent people around the world. Also, people such as psychopaths who have very little to no value towards others and their pleasure who only have value towards their own pleasure are just as mentally disordered as someone who instead has very little to no value towards his/her own feelings of pleasure who instead has value towards other people and their pleasure including other things in life. Only when a person has both an equal amount of value towards his/her own pleasure as well as others in general and their pleasure are they considered mentally stable since they would be at this stable "equilibrium."
In conclusion, some people might say something such as that the pleasure and suffering of others from their own perspectives cannot possibly be anything neutral since they can feel pleasure profoundly from witnessing others experiencing pleasure and that they can feel profound despair from witnessing others experience despair. However, these things are all neutral from this person's perspective no matter what. What goes on in the brain is that neutral stimuli such as imagery, words, and sounds, they are all perceived as good or bad things through our own personal created meanings and through the neutral mental processes in our brains that then send an emotional signal to our brains. These emotions are what are the only good and bad things to us in life. Our own personal created meanings and all our other mental processes are all still neutral including everything else in life from our perspectives. So even though you might experience pleasure from witnessing someone else experience pleasure or that you are experiencing despair from witnessing someone else experiencing despair, then it would still only be your own pleasure and despair from that which would be the only good and bad things to you. Some people would also say that we have mirror neurons that allow us to experience the pain, pleasure, despair, and suffering of others. However, it is all still our own mirror neurons and it is still our own experiences of pleasure and suffering and we are not actually experiencing the pleasure and suffering of others.
I'll do my best to try to sum up some of your points, I may not be getting you though.
It sounds to me like you are saying that the universe is neutral and it is only through our minds that we give it any meaning. I would basically agree with this.
I think you're also saying that something can only be said to be good or bad because an individual has an experience of it being so. I also agree with that.
I think where I, and Buddhism, would disagree is with harming being ok if it leads to an individual's pleasure. If that is the case then what happens when the pleasure of two individuals requires the suffering of the other, it seems that there can be no winner there. I don't think it can be argued from the side of the individual that one's happiness is more important to them than the other's. Also, human beings are hardwired to be social animals, our brains release oxytocin and other pleasurable chemicals in response to affection and other pro social behaviors. Plus, our mere physical existence depends on the efforts of other people.
You might also want to look into the notion of dependent co-arising. Basically anything that can be said to exist or arise only does so in dependence upon other factors, therefore nothing can be said to have properties, such as good or bad, entirely from their own side.
From my experience there is usually more than one way to look at any situation and often more than one of them can be argued soundly.
Holy TLDR, that's all I'll say.
Yes, @MattMVS7, mind condensing all that into something more legible and comprehensible? Frankly, you lost me a third of the way through the first post... :cold_sweat: