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having hatred towards evil people
Sunspot5254
Explorer
I read a story today about a two year old in Independence Missouri who was a victim of child abuse. I won't go into details as they're very upsetting but how do you handle your hatred for these things? How do you find compassion for serial killers and those who rape children? How do you not cry about these things and keep them out of your mind? I can't find any reason to defend the character of someone evil. I have trouble with this and I'd appreciate any insight.
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The same way you find compassion for the abused dog that becomes vicious. The world can create monsters, but what's the point of hating? All we can do is protect people, and try to prevent it from happening in the first place.
You don't have to 'pump up' a particular feeling. So you don't have to feel a particular thing. So you just have to live with how you really do feel. Start the compassion on yourself and forgive yourself for having outrage. It's normal.
One thing I do think of is that someone wouldn't do things if they weren't completely screwed up. I'd say they were insane but that is offensive to people who suffer from real mental illnesses such as myself. I'm literally not kidding about that last sentence A lot of the people who are child molesters were themselves molested as children. But yes people who rape another human or molest children are messed up. What's to be done?
That's usually all it takes, one fresh thought or insight. Aside from those who can't feel empathy, like sociopaths and psychopaths, any one of us could've been warped to do "evil" things if we had the same circumstances. Evil isn't born, it's made... and so evil isn't really an intrinsic part of anyone. I've never encountered anyone who can truly hate and love someone at the same time, and so if we hate people who do bad things we've given up on loving them at all. We've removed all humanity from the equation. We don't have to say we love them or forgive them, or fail to punish them, but hate is going overboard in the other direction (and it only really harms us).
I also think of the Muslim suicide bombers. Had they been raised by different people, do you think they'd do that? They were crafted by circumstances to do "evil". We should hold in disdain the causes that led to that behavior, curtail any harm being done to us/others, but we should also be understanding. That's where compassion comes from. We understand that they're truly no different from us in nature, only in circumstance. If we have to kill or imprison people to save others, okay... but hate is the product of not understanding, and de-humanizing them out of fear or anger. It's really the fear-leads-to-anger-leads-to-hate-leads-to-the-dark-side kinda thing. We need to be Jedi!
If you want to cry, then you should cry. Having compassion for people who do horrible things does not mean being ok with what they did. It means realizing that people who do such things are hurting greatly themselves, to the point they cannot contain it anymore, and it comes out in horrible, horrible ways. They are products of a society that we created and contribute to every day. How can you make your contribution a better one?
As Thich Nhat Hanh says:
“When another person makes you suffer, it is because he suffers deeply within himself, and his suffering is spilling over. He does not need punishment; he needs help. That's the message he is sending.”
Personal responsibility is where law comes in. Law shouldn't have hate or vindictiveness as cornerstones either. Its foundation is humans living together in harmony. It seeks to stop problems, though I think it should go further in addressing them at the root... too much is about punishing individuals instead of fixing the underlying problems that brought their behavior (or mentality) about.
Everything in life is ultimately a practice in understanding causality. The more deeply we look, the more sensibly we relate to reality (and the more understanding we are of others; which is compassion).
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Yeah, they are products of over-exposure to twisted behavior and/or their physiology poisoned In one way or another and are incapable of sane behavior except through some sort of intervention.
For many reasons, I suppose, modern societies seem to have found themselves hamstrung by this and that philosophy that leaves out common sense and due to the widespread confusion and hand-wringing, have become totally and utterly inept at doing anything truly sensible and timely about stuff like this. The whole of society suffers for it.
The Buddha was able to reach an insane killer, who then became one of the Buddha's most articulate followers. It's almost impossible for me to imagine such a thing happening nowadays.
Channel that outrage into constructive activity. Pervs like this often grew up as abused, helpless children themselves. Study the causes behind the development of this type of psychology, and work toward eliminating the causes. For example: an end to poverty, and improved educational opportunities for the underclass. Some kind of reforms, better oversight, in the foster care system. It's a big, messy world out there, and humanity needs all the help it can get. Volunteer for Big Brothers/Big Sisters. Don't just cry, DO something!
Well said @Dakini, great insights from everyone.
There is something we can all do in some areas. Instead of going around being outraged by [insert news item, abuse, cruelty war etc]. We can stop as so many people do, indulging in the 'isn't it terrible' mind set as if this is part of the solution. It may be a requirement for part of the maturing only when leading on. The personal solution may involve:
'doing a little' to improve the situation.
The world will be saved not by demonising, labelling monsters, taking refuge in a bottle/drugs or not taking medication etc.
We are part of the good will intention.
The worlds Dukkha is a Noble Truth a certainty, a fact.
Noble synonyms: righteous, virtuous, good, honourable, honest, upright, upstanding, decent, worthy, noble-minded, uncorrupted, anti-corruption, moral, ethical, reputable, magnanimous, unselfish, generous, self-sacrificing, brave
Every person who sorts their pain out, becomes compassionate and understanding to who they once were and who they see like them or very much worse off.
Do not underestimate what one enlightened individual can do rippling outward or a moral monk.
http://www.julianmaddock.info/poetry/please-call-me-by-my-true-names.html
Sit, change, engage. How is up to us. You want another picture of a cushion?
Do not underestimate what one enlightened individual can do rippling outward or a moral monk.
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http://www.julianmaddock.info/poetry/please-call-me-by-my-true-names.html
Sit, change, engage. How is up to us. You want another picture of a cushion?
You bet! {do you have one with fruitcake on it? ...uh not literally...}
Must be Christmas . . .
and now please . . .
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children
Think of the children
Helen Lovejoy (from the Simpsons)
The cause of evil is hatred. By harbouring hatred one become evil as well. That's how wars start.
"An eye for an eye......"
The exception as stated earlier are true psychopaths.
To those of us who are parents, the ring of words such as "child molesters, abusers, rapers or killers," send our bodies in "fight or flight" mode in ways that even the mention of a Hitler or a Stalin sound like abstractions in comparison.
Those of us who have children know how fragile, innocent, open they are, how much love they need, how much they rely on our protection, how they trust people on the spot.
How can you go ahead and trample on the lives of these tiny beings?
I agree we can try to put ourselves in this people's place, try to understand where they come from, but what if it had been our child that is abused, raped, murdered by one of these men?
Or, contrarily, the parent of someone who abused, raped, or murdered someone else's child (and I'm not putting age limits on that statement). We're all too often on the outside looking in, but to really find balance we need to put ourselves in everyone's shoes... see all perspectives. Both sets of parents are pained greatly; and both children in most cases.
We are the killers, the killed, and the ones who grieve.
How can you go ahead and trample on the lives of these tiny beings?
@DhammaDragon you are providing the passion, strength of protection that any parent or child victim requires. It is nearly impossible to be objective with our rinpoches (Tibetan: precious jewels).
@Toraldris has given a good answer. It may sound harsh or cold but it is a widening of the heart.
I sometimes refer to 'picnicking in the hell realms'. This is not an indulgence, we live in both realms . . .
There was once a Samurai, named Nobuchika, who approached the Zen master, named Haku-in, and asked whether there were really Hell and Heaven. The Zen master asked him, “Who are you?” The Samurai answered, “I am a Samurai, sir”. “Uh! Are you?”, the master exclaimed, and said, “You don’t look like a Samurai; you look like a beggar”. The Samurai got angry and grabbed his sword. When Master Haku-in saw that, he said, “Uh! You have a sword. It looks very dull. What can you do with the dull sword?” Nobuchika drew his sword out of the sheath. Then Master Haku-in said, softly, “See! The gate of Hell opens now”. When Hobuchika heard that, he realised that and calmed down. And then again, Master Haku-in said, kindly, “See! The gate of Heaven opens now”.
Oh crap was I being harsh or cold? I didn't mean to be that at all, not one iota, not one little teeny bit!
If we were angry and crazy enough, we'd probably want to go and kill them, and no doubt some of their innocent children would get killed too.
Which is why the Taliban said they'd done it in the first place:
I'm not saying it's right - definitely not saying that.
^^^ You hear how hard it is?
Understood.
To talk about widening the idea of child was right but it may take time for people to feel without their quite natural emotive repulsion . . .
@Tosh is saying the same difficult to hear message . . .
Generating strong emotional identities and indulgent, cathartic, justified hatreds is part of grieving. Humanity has been violated by children grown up twisted and violating . . .
I sometimes think--and this was something that popped into my head when I was talking with someone who had a "X was born evil and needs to die" position--that we're afraid to examine the contributing factors because we might find that, if met with the same factors, we could very well have done something similar. No guarantees, of course, but the potential would be there. That is a prospect that terrifies us because we want to desperately believe that we're somehow above such acts. We're not, though. I remember watching "Triumph of the Will," a popular Nazi propaganda film, in a Sociology class in college. The professor pointed out that, despite the benefits of hindsight that we have, there's no guarantee that we would NOT have wanted to support the Nazis after seeing that film when it was released. His comment definitely knocked some sense into me.
@Rowan1980 Well said. I think that's just the thing, we distance ourselves by de-humanizing others. It's the only way to deal with the fact that "there but for the grace of God go I". When we're really honest in recognizing that it could've been us, that we're no more intrinsically good than "they" are intrinsically evil, things are never so black and white. This is why we need to wake up.
By doing metta practice and practicing the directing of attention appropriately.
"What if" hypotheticals always look nice on theory.
I wonder why it is that we appeal so strongly to the Brahma-Viharas when we touch delicate subjects such as putting ourselves in a criminal's shoes, but keep them in our pockets every time a thread opens up on vegetarianism or rebirth.
As the Spanish saying goes, it is on the turf that we see a filly's worth...
Edit: I don't mean to say that I'd stone criminal people to death, or that we should not try to view things from their perspective.
What I mean is: it's more difficult to know exactly what we would feel towards a criminal or how we would react if we found ourselves in the victim's position.
In this situation with regards to the loss of life in Pakistan, I can contemplate how causes, conditions, potentialities, etc. could lead someone to violent actions, BUT I will be focusing on a practical level on those who lost their lives and their loved ones as far as emotional support is concerned.
There are many stories of people who have been victims themselves, or the parents of victims, and their level of compassion and forgiveness for an atrocious act committed against them. It is possible. But you have to be working towards it before it happens, I think.
I would like to believe I would not act in pure rage or revenge, even against someone hurting one of my children. But I do not know because it has not happened, thankfully. Forgiveness is a gift for everyone. It does no good at any point, ever, to further violence in the world regardless of how horrific the violence against us was.
We have 2 hunting rifles in our house. We don't really hunt anymore, but we target shoot sometimes and they are family heirlooms, so I keep them. My oldest son sometimes asks why we don't keep them accessible in case of a break in. I tell him repeatedly that aside from the fact we live in a town of 170 people and are related to most of them so that threat is pretty small, I wouldn't shoot an intruder and I don't want to give myself permission to do so by having an accessible weapon. Retribution does nothing to heal us from traumatic events.
I prefer not to think of life in such a way that I believe something like that is even remotely likely to happen. I don't know how I'd react were it to actually happen, but it would be far more likely for someone I care about to be hurt or killed by an accessible gun in the home than it would be likely I'd ever need it for home defense. We have a dog who is very menacing sounding, and looking (though she would probably let any robber in the house who had a treat for her...lol) and that's enough. There are ways to discourage such acts and ways to deal with them before resorting to having to kill someone. If I lived in an area where this were much more likely to happen, perhaps I would feel differently. Right now, I'd be more likely to be stalking around my house with a gun and find out it's my teenager getting up for a sandwich. Or at worst, a drunk neighbor who doesn't remember where they live. That happens a lot here, yet they are dealt with without violence.
In which case the act of pulling the trigger is done out of love for one's child rather than out of hatred towards the attacker.
Same act, different intentions. Or could both intentions be present at the same time?
Jack Kornfield tells an anecdote about a woman, from Los Angelas I believe, who's son had been murdered by another young man. The young man who had committed the crime, was arrested and was sent to prison. Before he went to jail, and in the courtroom, the mother of the murdered boy, confronted him and told him "I am going to kill you". Then, the woman visited the boy in prison, did everything she could to help in his rehabilitation, and eventually adopted the young man, took him into her home and supported him to get his education.
She did kill that angry young man. The anger was gone, and he became a contributing decent young man. She could have hated him and tried to get her retribution, but what would that have created? Just another angry, bitter young man who may hurt others. Her love added a decent person who also became her own son. In the end, the bitterness could have soured both of them on life and created more suffering. Because she had the capacity for love, the world is a much better place.
No babies, no guns, Noel.
This is how the mind flaps in its own wind.
Shoot the baby thinking. Kill the Buddha and find the next cushion substitute . . .
http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/
In which case the act of pulling the trigger is done out of love for one's child rather than out of hatred towards the attacker.
Same act, different intentions. Or could both intentions be present at the same time?
I think they often are. Love and hate are closely related.
What will lead to the least amount of harm, killing them or letting them continue?
Killing them may be the most compassionate choice for all concerned.
I don't think any of really knows what we'd do in such extreme circumstances. That's the whole problem with these hypothetical scenarios.
I believe the world is chock full of people who can never forgive. Just consider terrorists. The real gems are those that can be injured, but find it in their heart to forgive and show compassion, even to the perpetrators.
I agree, although it's very distasteful to say the least...If only there were a few real Buddhas nowadays who could turn a raving lunatic killer into a pussy cat like he did that one fellow ... there'd be no need for police.
What we really need is a Buddha Army!
Not too many generations ago, they used to lobotomize people for a lot less. One of the Kennedy women had that done to her, from what I read recently on Pinterest - they even had a picture of her - incredibly sad. They never spoke about her from then on..
Yeah it's like they learned nothing from what happens to abused dogs. We come full circle.
The key thing is that the killer showed or must have shown remorse/regret and a willingness to change. That young man was no longer the same person as the killer of her son.
You can't forgive someone who has no conscience and who continue to spit on his victims. That would be silly.
The trick is tested for ages and still proves to be working today. Anger is sleeping. Waking it up takes a good film-script with a genuine bad guy (him) and a hero (me).
The script is flexible. The bad guy can be on the other political side or have another religion or be of a different race, and of course the bad guy can be on the other side of the law.
Propaganda and violence are like mother and child.
What we can do about it – hopefully – is try to recognize it, soften it, and embrace the fact that we don’t know anything completely and for sure.
“Don’t believe a single thought”.
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On the contrary. That is when forgiveness matters most of all.
Our forgiveness should not be conditional on whether the person is remorseful or not.
Our forgiveness releases us from harbouring, nurturing, cultivating and perpetuating Hatred.
Forgiveness doesn't let THEM off the hook. Forgiveness lets US off the hook.
Well said. This is not about co-dependence where we forgive an abusive person, thereby enabling them to repeat abuse. It is not forgetting or sweeping atrocities under the carpet.
It is finding ways to let go of Dukkha, rather than tightening its stranglehold to punish ourselves even further.
That does not mean it is simple, easy or instant.
It is not forgetting or sweeping atrocities under the carpet.
Isn't it? If we think about forgiveness just as self-help therapy, a way of coping and making ourselves feel better, it can begin to look very much like that.
No.
What atrocities would you like to skilfully regale us with? Personally just watching or reading the news makes most of us well aware of 'unforgiveable' activity on a daily basis . . .
While it is true that forgiveness does help the individual giving it, it is also beneficial to other salient beings too. We don't need to stop doing the right thing because it happens to benefit us too.
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I wish I could claim credit for this line, but I can't.
I hesitate to admit it, but I think i heard it on Oprah - either from Dr Phil or Yianla Vanzant. I believe the former.
And however cliché the line may sound, I actually think it's profoundly true.
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Good. I think any starting point that heals our hearts, is absolutely fine.
It doesn't matter what the motives are or what people do.
If it effects a positive result, then frankly, who gives a damn?
The point is to open up, and forgive. Show Compassion. Reach a state when we can look at the "aggressor" and feel better, not worse.
"If you knows of a better hole, go to it", but I think any point of positive self-development, is a good one.
I feel there is an undercurrent of denial here, trying to skip ahead to the 3rd Noble Truth without having fully understood the First.
Why do you feel that....?
That, I really find puzzling. As seasoned practitioners (and by that, I certainly do NOT mean perfected or professional!) I think we have all pretty much come far enough, and discussed the 4NT enough, to not be doing that....?
Why do you see that?
Genuinely curious.....
In the sense that the 4NT are to be realised, that goes much further than an intellectual understanding. Mere aversion to suffering is missing the point.
I'm still not sure where you see that we're not taking everything into consideration....
Everyone is averse to suffering, but where are you seeing anyone missing the point?
I have to say I'm at a loss as well. You seem to be saying that healing equates to aversion of suffering.
Should we forgo progress so we can fully take advantage of the state of suffering?