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Just to show balance, this is also extremely important.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Definitely. That is one thing I have focused on with my kids (I have 3 boys: 18, 12 and 6) and that is how important it is to talk about things. The 2 older ones both have experienced situations that caused them stress that in turn made them physically ill. To think about how much that compounds as boys turn into men and all that they take on, it's a wonder they live as long as they do.
But most men I know, won't talk about how they feel. Not only do they feel responsible for being strong, for taking control, for all those things in the article, they also feel like they cannot talk about it. My husband is that way, for sure. We live in an area where people, men and women, pride themselves on their toughness, their hardiness. Men more so than women. Crying is not allowed. Even worrying is not allowed. Or at least you are not allowed to tell someone you are worried or scared.
It's not the way I wish my husband would live, but he mostly does. He was taught, more so by example than by words, that that is how a real man is. My dad is no different. Grandparents the same. When my kids have been young, it's fairly easy to get them to talk. I keep myself an open book and I answer even their most difficult questions with completely honesty so that they trust me to come to me. So far, even the oldest is willing to bring topics and questions to me that a lot of boys wouldn't, so I hope that continues and I hope they don't believe that to be a man, to be deserving of a partner, that they have to hide their hearts to do so.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
It's yet another form of social conditioning, and a dreadful one at that.
Stiff upper lip, keeping it all in, stoic and strong.
It stinks.
Hopefully, most guys on this forum would be the exceptions that prove the rule, but I fear some have been raised the ol' fashioned way, and sadly, may fall into the category of "at risk".
This is very sad. When I was suicidal, I was able to reach out and get help. The suffering was unbearable, and I just couldn't face it by myself. But asking others for help was one of the most difficult things I've ever done, and humiliating to boot. But if hadn't, I might not be posting this today.
However, I am not in the least macho. I don't give a rat's behind about sports, I don't whistle at women. I was raised by a member of NOW. But I still felt that I had to be independent and not rely on others emotionally. That nearly killed me.
2
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2015
@nakazcid said:
This is very sad. When I was suicidal, I was able to reach out and get help. The suffering was unbearable, and I just couldn't face it by myself. But asking others for help was one of the most difficult things I've ever done, and humiliating to boot. But if hadn't, I might not be posting this today.
However, I am not in the least macho. I don't give a rat's behind about sports, I don't whistle at women. I was raised by a member of NOW. But I still felt that I had to be independent and not rely on others emotionally. That nearly killed me.
>
I'm very happy for you that you were able to overcome the difficulty you were faced with.
I guess your survival instinct over-rode your hesitancy. Thank goodness for that.
I am assuming nobody made you feel humiliated, or belittled your situation. That, I think, is one of the worst things anyone can encounter. When their depression is dismissed as superficial nonsense.
I wonder what precisely made you feel you had to be independent, given your development and mind-set....
Fortunately, the humiliation was mostly self-inflicted. But "reaching out" made me feel intensely vulnerable, and I imagined that others were disgusted with me even though everyone was outwardly supportive. But this was while I was under the influence of depression and shortly after the death of my mother. Not good times.
I'm not sure I can trace the need to appear independent. Maybe that's the one macho trait I picked up. I think my reluctance to reach out mostly had to do with a pathological lack of trust in others. That came from a fair bit of childhood trauma.
0
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
I'm not sure I can trace the need to appear independent... I think my reluctance to reach out mostly had to do with a pathological lack of trust in others. That came from a fair bit of childhood trauma.
I think the need to appear independent is a primal drive...a survival thing...in this kind of situation.
Yes, largely conditioning. Just as I talked about in the other conversation, I also know men who were raised to talk about such things, to not believe crying is for babies or girls, and so on. They don't fall victim to those things nearly as much as people raised the other way. Nature is in our genes, but it is often our environment and lifestyle that determines which genes are switched on.
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@karasti said:
Yes, largely conditioning. Just as I talked about in the other conversation, I also know men who were raised to talk about such things, to not believe crying is for babies or girls, and so on. They don't fall victim to those things nearly as much as people raised the other way. Nature is in our genes, but it is often our environment and lifestyle that determines which genes are switched on.
>
I never meant to imply the primal drive / survival thing is the only facet of our attitudes. There's probably at least 1 kid in every family who goes against whatever grain is set up within the family home, influencing their own friends and acquaintances along the way. It's too complicated an issue to create a pie chart.
I've seen a lot of talks about conditioning lately...I think when a focus gets on one aspect, it's time to step back to get a more panoramic view.
Recently my mom and girlfriend at dinner with me were discussing how when we (gf and i) were on a vacation together my girlfriend planned out everything we did together such as restaurants etc. I have to admit that I was steamed over it and I am glad I have so much practice as a Buddhist not to get irate and make a fool of myself.
But it is a stigma in our times that the guy is supposed to 'wear the pants' and so forth. Sure it is a million million million times better than in my grand fathers day in the 40s and 50s. But yeah I was angry. Took maybe a day and 2 hours of meditation and I was fine.
I have found that women sometimes expect me to wear the pants, so it can get quite confusing. There's so much conditioning with both sexes. Mixed messages too.
@lobster said:
Anyone prefer to be a Buddha rather than a karmic body? Oh well . . . here you go boys . . .
So are we forming a mens' group here as well? I think I might need one after some of the recent discussions.
0
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@SpinyNorman said:
So men don't have an easy time either......on the one hand they're chauvinist pigs, on the other hand they're confused and emotionally repressed.
Well, what I was gonna say is no, men don't have an easy time, in fact, the cultural expectations of men (as so with women) are equally impossible to live up to with perhaps more pressure to live up to them than women, thanks to feminism and more and more women not giving a f*ck.
I think there are ways it is easier being female than male. Men need liberation too. What that looks like is for men to figure out.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Bear in mind though that men have only "needed liberation" since women achieved "liberation".
That's about 100 years ago, so it's taken a comparatively short time for men to feel the same discomfort that women have had to endure for millennia.
@federica said:
And no, that's not a 'pissing contest'.
It's beginning to sound like one though.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Look at how things have evolved, Spiny.
The speed at which women have grasped the equal rights given to them, has been supersonic, and many things have moved strongly in their favour in an extremely short period of time. Granted, there are still areas in which it is evident - both socially and economically - where women are still coming a poor second, but comparatively speaking, women have been given equality, and they have grasped that priviledge at breakneck speed.
It hasn't taken that long for men (and I am speaking generally, gender-wise) to feel discomfiture, which is tragically, why their roles in society have become blurred, confusing and aimless.
This is not their fault.
This is not the fault of women, either.
And I think that such movement is both beneficial AND detrimental...
It's a bit like the World of Modern Technology. Developments are working so fast in that field that at times, the human brain can't actually keep pace - which is both a wondrous thing, and greatly alarming, at the same time. In some fields, technology is 'running away' with us.
That's the kind of comparison I mean....
1
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
edited January 2015
((Guess who's working the night shift, I get to talk to Europe)) The pressure on humans, period, to adapt to tech and the social changes is probably worse than we know. Maybe it's always been like this, at least in a relative way.
Women target men as enforcing sexist stuff but women propagate both their own sexist stuff AND that which discriminates against males. It's always going both ways. Bringing up what men deal with is no different in concept but in context, it has differences from what women deal with. An important point is not to outright reject that you (me, anyone) too could be an unwitting or stubbornly denying source of sexism that doesn't do anyone any good whatever their genitals. It's been eye opening to see the stubborn resistance to even contemplate what yet might still be harmful within us.
Women target men as enforcing sexist stuff but women propagate both their own sexist stuff AND that which discriminates against males. It's always going both ways.
Yes, it is. It's all rather complicated and sometimes there are mixed messages. Men and women both struggling with their conditioning, roles and identity. Much progress has been made and it's heading in the right direction, but people also need time to adjust.
3
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
All of what you all just said is true. What's also true is that you can't expect such a sea change in women's general favor without a tremendously powerful backlash from the powerful -- so I'm amazed we're doing as well as we are in the endeavor to maintain and keep moving forward on this.
Am I oversimplistic lately?
Whenever I went on a date, I did not see a gender, a sex.
I did not consider all the taboos, the cultural expectations and conditionings.
I just saw a human being who was as eager to communicate and bond as I was.
I'm not sure if the attempt to show balance is even possible. As was brought up in the other thread, (to paraphrase) where a man fears the death of his ego, a woman fears outright death.
I didn't say it was idealistic. I said it was ideal. It would be ideal if everyone saw each person for simply being a human being. The majority of people cannot look past the labels of outer appearance to see past those things. If there are a lot of people where you are who sit down with a date and don't consider their gender to be of utmost importance in the interaction, I am quite jealous of wherever you live
I did not mean that there was no sexual tension, nor that either of us was indifferent to the other person's typically female or male attributes.
What I meant is I never went on a date with the mindset me-girl vs you-boy-alien-belonging-to-a-race-who-for-millenia-has tortured-my-kin-and-wants-to-drag-me-into-bed.
I always viewed my dates as people who were basically like me: same fears, same expectations, same anxiety over the success or failure of the encounter.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I've never been on any date and thought that way either.... But the problems still exist (either way) even when one finds like-minded people.
My H has the same opinions on such matters as I have, but he and I are well-matched... we still know that such issues are very much in evidence for others....
Please see my thread for further comment....
0
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
edited January 2015
@DhammaDragon said:
Am I oversimplistic lately?
Whenever I went on a date, I did not see a gender, a sex.
I did not consider all the taboos, the cultural expectations and conditionings.
I just saw a human being who was as eager to communicate and bond as I was.
I mean this with all the earnestness I can manage. (and I really think you are awesome)
You may very well be 'unique' in this. It's always a matter of degree, right? We're all on the continuum somewhere. You are remarkably self-assured, self confident and clear minded. It makes sense that you have been less impacted.
But most other women HAVE been. And a huge majority still are and will continue to lose their lives, their children's lives, their homes and families and communities not to mention their selves every single day. Every single day a woman is killed by their intimate partner in the US. This isn't just a matter of perspective
0
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
edited January 2015
@Hamsaka said:
But most other women HAVE been. And a huge majority still are and will continue to lose their lives, their children's lives, their homes and families and communities not to mention their selves every single day. Every single day a woman is killed by their intimate partner in the US. This isn't just a matter of perspective
>
For what it's worth, I don't think @DhammaDragon is implying that she's not aware of all the awful stuff - one would have to live in a cave blindfolded to not know. I'm not even sure what I'm seeing of those who are seemingly informing her of stuff I'd be willing to bet she's fully cognizant of. So this leaves me perplexed as to some of the responses.
I think it's of the utmost importance that we are grateful for such people who have level-headed attitudes, don't have it too bad, and yet have fought their own skirmishes and been able to effect change - even if it is just the FIL.
1
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
I already knew that, of course she does and what I wrote didn't take that into consideration. My apologies for that @Dhammadragon and thanks for pointing out @Silver.
It would have better represented what I was thinking (as I wrote) to speak to the experience of women's brand of oppression, NOT that oppression occurs. A person would have to be living year round in a hunting shack in Alaska to be that out of touch. Ah, right speech again . . .
1
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
That's what we're all here for, to set one another straight. Mehbe if we 'had the powah,' we'd send all our men to that hunting shack in Alaska! Then we'd all be happy. XD
Well, I can't add anything new to what @silver said above: could not have said it better myself.
We can't always infer that because a person presents a different opinion to one's own, this automatically implies that this person is insensitive to other people's strife or that this comment automatically invalidates one's opinion.
This is what as of late has people scurrying for shelter every time a sexism thread opens: the fact that people with a different voice gets stoned to death.
As it has been said on another thread, the sexism dialogue needs to take place, but how can dialogue happen, how can we get our female voice heard if we invariably end up howling participants away?
4
SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
The research underlines that so often their own worst enemies, men need new rules for survival. Outmoded, incorrect and misplaced male self-beliefs are proving lethal and the traditional strong, silent response to adversity is increasingly failing to protect men from themselves.
So happy my hubby has confirmed he has never been told to "man up"!
@DhammaDragon said:
This is what as of late has people scurrying for shelter every time a sexism thread opens: the fact that people with a different voice gets stoned to death.
Don't shave your legs, @dhammachick!!!
Wax is the best method, please
1
SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
^^^ Ouch!!! No thanks Let's not be sexist here ... men aren't expected to wax their faces, even if some do dare their chests/backs. Not sure how many do it twice?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
My neighbor used to get his face waxed..... He would have to hide for a day to let the redness subside. Mind you, he had 'bum-fluff'.. and it was patchy at that.
My brother used to use depilatory cream. He swore by it, and recommends it.
SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
Come on guys! I was hoping to find out what bugs you about inequality. Is there nothing? Is it unfair that it's a "man's job" to put the rubbish out? To cut the grass? That you can't wear skirts when women can wear whatever they like? There MUST be some complaints, aren't there? What do us girls need to change?
Seems pretty tough to me, being a "modern man". How do you find it?
My ex didn't realise how tough it would be to act house husband whilst he trained as an opera singer (having previously been a lawyer). I earnt more than enough for both of us but gave him a generous allowance in light of the child care he did. Plus paid for a cleaner, dishwasher etc. But, even coming from a world where such "role reversal" was not uncommon, I felt he resented my financial success. Or was I being over-sensitive? Can't ask him - he pretends I don't exist these days - but male point of view would be welcome.
Reviving this thread as a wise friend has now given me permission to add his advice:
I always say to the Guys "Don't try to understand your woman - she does not understand herself. Your job is to LOVE! And that is all". As for the Gals, I say - "Your job is to FORGIVE! Asking for forgiveness and forgiving clears the way for gratitude to flourish; and an excess of gratitude becomes joy!"
I was just thinking about this last night. We always talk about how "if women want to compete with men, they have to prove they are equals to men." What if we also included that men needed to work more towards being more like women? How would that go over? You (generally speaking) want us to prove we are as strong, as fast, as tough as you. Maybe men should have to work to be more emotional, more open, more communicative. Maybe instead of insisting women need to meet men at the top of their game, we should be better about meeting in the middle.
Comments
Definitely. That is one thing I have focused on with my kids (I have 3 boys: 18, 12 and 6) and that is how important it is to talk about things. The 2 older ones both have experienced situations that caused them stress that in turn made them physically ill. To think about how much that compounds as boys turn into men and all that they take on, it's a wonder they live as long as they do.
But most men I know, won't talk about how they feel. Not only do they feel responsible for being strong, for taking control, for all those things in the article, they also feel like they cannot talk about it. My husband is that way, for sure. We live in an area where people, men and women, pride themselves on their toughness, their hardiness. Men more so than women. Crying is not allowed. Even worrying is not allowed. Or at least you are not allowed to tell someone you are worried or scared.
It's not the way I wish my husband would live, but he mostly does. He was taught, more so by example than by words, that that is how a real man is. My dad is no different. Grandparents the same. When my kids have been young, it's fairly easy to get them to talk. I keep myself an open book and I answer even their most difficult questions with completely honesty so that they trust me to come to me. So far, even the oldest is willing to bring topics and questions to me that a lot of boys wouldn't, so I hope that continues and I hope they don't believe that to be a man, to be deserving of a partner, that they have to hide their hearts to do so.
It's yet another form of social conditioning, and a dreadful one at that.
Stiff upper lip, keeping it all in, stoic and strong.
It stinks.
Hopefully, most guys on this forum would be the exceptions that prove the rule, but I fear some have been raised the ol' fashioned way, and sadly, may fall into the category of "at risk".
This is very sad. When I was suicidal, I was able to reach out and get help. The suffering was unbearable, and I just couldn't face it by myself. But asking others for help was one of the most difficult things I've ever done, and humiliating to boot. But if hadn't, I might not be posting this today.
However, I am not in the least macho. I don't give a rat's behind about sports, I don't whistle at women. I was raised by a member of NOW. But I still felt that I had to be independent and not rely on others emotionally. That nearly killed me.
>
I'm very happy for you that you were able to overcome the difficulty you were faced with.
I guess your survival instinct over-rode your hesitancy. Thank goodness for that.
I am assuming nobody made you feel humiliated, or belittled your situation. That, I think, is one of the worst things anyone can encounter. When their depression is dismissed as superficial nonsense.
I wonder what precisely made you feel you had to be independent, given your development and mind-set....
Glad you're here with us, @nakazcid.
So men don't have an easy time either......on the one hand they're chauvinist pigs, on the other hand they're confused and emotionally repressed.
Fortunately, the humiliation was mostly self-inflicted. But "reaching out" made me feel intensely vulnerable, and I imagined that others were disgusted with me even though everyone was outwardly supportive. But this was while I was under the influence of depression and shortly after the death of my mother. Not good times.
I'm not sure I can trace the need to appear independent. Maybe that's the one macho trait I picked up. I think my reluctance to reach out mostly had to do with a pathological lack of trust in others. That came from a fair bit of childhood trauma.
I think the need to appear independent is a primal drive...a survival thing...in this kind of situation.
I think there's a large chunk of conditioning involved, "boys don't cry"
Yes, largely conditioning. Just as I talked about in the other conversation, I also know men who were raised to talk about such things, to not believe crying is for babies or girls, and so on. They don't fall victim to those things nearly as much as people raised the other way. Nature is in our genes, but it is often our environment and lifestyle that determines which genes are switched on.
Anyone prefer to be a Buddha rather than a karmic body? Oh well . . . here you go boys . . .
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_movement
>
I never meant to imply the primal drive / survival thing is the only facet of our attitudes. There's probably at least 1 kid in every family who goes against whatever grain is set up within the family home, influencing their own friends and acquaintances along the way. It's too complicated an issue to create a pie chart.
I've seen a lot of talks about conditioning lately...I think when a focus gets on one aspect, it's time to step back to get a more panoramic view.
Recently my mom and girlfriend at dinner with me were discussing how when we (gf and i) were on a vacation together my girlfriend planned out everything we did together such as restaurants etc. I have to admit that I was steamed over it and I am glad I have so much practice as a Buddhist not to get irate and make a fool of myself.
But it is a stigma in our times that the guy is supposed to 'wear the pants' and so forth. Sure it is a million million million times better than in my grand fathers day in the 40s and 50s. But yeah I was angry. Took maybe a day and 2 hours of meditation and I was fine.
I have found that women sometimes expect me to wear the pants, so it can get quite confusing. There's so much conditioning with both sexes. Mixed messages too.
So are we forming a mens' group here as well? I think I might need one after some of the recent discussions.
Well, what I was gonna say is no, men don't have an easy time, in fact, the cultural expectations of men (as so with women) are equally impossible to live up to with perhaps more pressure to live up to them than women, thanks to feminism and more and more women not giving a f*ck.
I think there are ways it is easier being female than male. Men need liberation too. What that looks like is for men to figure out.
Bear in mind though that men have only "needed liberation" since women achieved "liberation".
That's about 100 years ago, so it's taken a comparatively short time for men to feel the same discomfort that women have had to endure for millennia.
And no, that's not a 'pissing contest'.
That's fact.
It's beginning to sound like one though.
Look at how things have evolved, Spiny.
The speed at which women have grasped the equal rights given to them, has been supersonic, and many things have moved strongly in their favour in an extremely short period of time. Granted, there are still areas in which it is evident - both socially and economically - where women are still coming a poor second, but comparatively speaking, women have been given equality, and they have grasped that priviledge at breakneck speed.
It hasn't taken that long for men (and I am speaking generally, gender-wise) to feel discomfiture, which is tragically, why their roles in society have become blurred, confusing and aimless.
This is not their fault.
This is not the fault of women, either.
And I think that such movement is both beneficial AND detrimental...
It's a bit like the World of Modern Technology. Developments are working so fast in that field that at times, the human brain can't actually keep pace - which is both a wondrous thing, and greatly alarming, at the same time. In some fields, technology is 'running away' with us.
That's the kind of comparison I mean....
((Guess who's working the night shift, I get to talk to Europe)) The pressure on humans, period, to adapt to tech and the social changes is probably worse than we know. Maybe it's always been like this, at least in a relative way.
Women target men as enforcing sexist stuff but women propagate both their own sexist stuff AND that which discriminates against males. It's always going both ways. Bringing up what men deal with is no different in concept but in context, it has differences from what women deal with. An important point is not to outright reject that you (me, anyone) too could be an unwitting or stubbornly denying source of sexism that doesn't do anyone any good whatever their genitals. It's been eye opening to see the stubborn resistance to even contemplate what yet might still be harmful within us.
Women target men as enforcing sexist stuff but women propagate both their own sexist stuff AND that which discriminates against males. It's always going both ways.
Yes, it is. It's all rather complicated and sometimes there are mixed messages. Men and women both struggling with their conditioning, roles and identity. Much progress has been made and it's heading in the right direction, but people also need time to adjust.
All of what you all just said is true. What's also true is that you can't expect such a sea change in women's general favor without a tremendously powerful backlash from the powerful -- so I'm amazed we're doing as well as we are in the endeavor to maintain and keep moving forward on this.
Whenever I went on a date, I did not see a gender, a sex.
I did not consider all the taboos, the cultural expectations and conditionings.
I just saw a human being who was as eager to communicate and bond as I was.
I'm not sure if the attempt to show balance is even possible. As was brought up in the other thread, (to paraphrase) where a man fears the death of his ego, a woman fears outright death.
@DhammaDragon And that is an ideal way to see the world and its people. But the majority of people to not look at it that way.
I would not call it "idealistic," I would not say "majority."
There are many people under the sun with all kinds of experiences.
I just presented one of many alternatives: what I have personally experienced.
I didn't say it was idealistic. I said it was ideal. It would be ideal if everyone saw each person for simply being a human being. The majority of people cannot look past the labels of outer appearance to see past those things. If there are a lot of people where you are who sit down with a date and don't consider their gender to be of utmost importance in the interaction, I am quite jealous of wherever you live
I did not mean that there was no sexual tension, nor that either of us was indifferent to the other person's typically female or male attributes.
What I meant is I never went on a date with the mindset me-girl vs you-boy-alien-belonging-to-a-race-who-for-millenia-has tortured-my-kin-and-wants-to-drag-me-into-bed.
I always viewed my dates as people who were basically like me: same fears, same expectations, same anxiety over the success or failure of the encounter.
I've never been on any date and thought that way either.... But the problems still exist (either way) even when one finds like-minded people.
My H has the same opinions on such matters as I have, but he and I are well-matched... we still know that such issues are very much in evidence for others....
Please see my thread for further comment....
I mean this with all the earnestness I can manage. (and I really think you are awesome)
You may very well be 'unique' in this. It's always a matter of degree, right? We're all on the continuum somewhere. You are remarkably self-assured, self confident and clear minded. It makes sense that you have been less impacted.
But most other women HAVE been. And a huge majority still are and will continue to lose their lives, their children's lives, their homes and families and communities not to mention their selves every single day. Every single day a woman is killed by their intimate partner in the US. This isn't just a matter of perspective
>
For what it's worth, I don't think @DhammaDragon is implying that she's not aware of all the awful stuff - one would have to live in a cave blindfolded to not know. I'm not even sure what I'm seeing of those who are seemingly informing her of stuff I'd be willing to bet she's fully cognizant of. So this leaves me perplexed as to some of the responses.
I think it's of the utmost importance that we are grateful for such people who have level-headed attitudes, don't have it too bad, and yet have fought their own skirmishes and been able to effect change - even if it is just the FIL.
I already knew that, of course she does
and what I wrote didn't take that into consideration. My apologies for that @Dhammadragon and thanks for pointing out @Silver.
It would have better represented what I was thinking (as I wrote) to speak to the experience of women's brand of oppression, NOT that oppression occurs. A person would have to be living year round in a hunting shack in Alaska to be that out of touch. Ah, right speech again . . .
That's what we're all here for, to set one another straight.
Mehbe if we 'had the powah,' we'd send all our men to that hunting shack in Alaska! Then we'd all be happy. XD
Well, I can't add anything new to what @silver said above: could not have said it better myself.
We can't always infer that because a person presents a different opinion to one's own, this automatically implies that this person is insensitive to other people's strife or that this comment automatically invalidates one's opinion.
This is what as of late has people scurrying for shelter every time a sexism thread opens: the fact that people with a different voice gets stoned to death.
As it has been said on another thread, the sexism dialogue needs to take place, but how can dialogue happen, how can we get our female voice heard if we invariably end up howling participants away?
So happy my hubby has confirmed he has never been told to "man up"!
. . . and now back to the unstoned . . .
I'll wear the pants happily. They're more comfortable. Oh wait.....
Just injecting a little humour _ /\ _
My fave movie
I'll wear the pants happily.
Pants or trousers?
Depends on whether I've shaved my legs
Don't shave your legs, @dhammachick!!!
Wax is the best method, please
^^^ Ouch!!! No thanks
Let's not be sexist here ... men aren't expected to wax their faces, even if some do dare their chests/backs. Not sure how many do it twice?
My neighbor used to get his face waxed..... He would have to hide for a day to let the redness subside. Mind you, he had 'bum-fluff'.. and it was patchy at that.
My brother used to use depilatory cream. He swore by it, and recommends it.
Some handy hints here...
Come on guys! I was hoping to find out what bugs you about inequality. Is there nothing? Is it unfair that it's a "man's job" to put the rubbish out? To cut the grass? That you can't wear skirts when women can wear whatever they like? There MUST be some complaints, aren't there? What do us girls need to change?
Seems pretty tough to me, being a "modern man". How do you find it?
My ex didn't realise how tough it would be to act house husband whilst he trained as an opera singer (having previously been a lawyer). I earnt more than enough for both of us but gave him a generous allowance in light of the child care he did. Plus paid for a cleaner, dishwasher etc. But, even coming from a world where such "role reversal" was not uncommon, I felt he resented my financial success. Or was I being over-sensitive? Can't ask him - he pretends I don't exist these days - but male point of view would be welcome.
I don't understand wimmen.
LMAO!! Aw bless, so protective....!
Fantastic! Thanks @SpinyNorman
Reviving this thread as a wise friend has now given me permission to add his advice:
Haven't actually read the recommended article but pass it on fwiw.
I was just thinking about this last night. We always talk about how "if women want to compete with men, they have to prove they are equals to men." What if we also included that men needed to work more towards being more like women? How would that go over? You (generally speaking) want us to prove we are as strong, as fast, as tough as you. Maybe men should have to work to be more emotional, more open, more communicative. Maybe instead of insisting women need to meet men at the top of their game, we should be better about meeting in the middle.