If Karma is real why do horrific things happen to good people?
Vanilli
Veteran
http://www.lionsroar.com/lost-great-human-remembering-kayla-mueller/
Aid worker Kayla Mueller murdered by the Islamic State. Clearly this is a kind person who works to alleviate suffering. So based on karma this person who is now kind and works for the benefit of other beings, was once a murderer and now has that karma ripening - this seems very contradictory - why would someone who kills others then become someone who now works with kindness and compassion - it just doesn't make much sense. And if she is now kind hearted surely her good karma neutralizes some of her negative karma.
I remember reading of a great spiritual Buddhist leader or yogi or someone, who was renowned as an enlightened being, who was assassinated - and the stories of his loving kindness and wisdom seemed to present him as someone with genuine love and compassion for other beings. This just confuses me, I thought that when someone reaches that state that they become free of negative or positive karma - so why would they be murdered? Even if they were not enlightened, someone who is INCREDIBLY kind and compassionate surely does not have the negative karma to be murdered?
Buddha says to critically analyze all his ideas, I really struggle with seeing the logic in the notion of karma.
Comments
Because there is no beginning to ignorance. In past lifetimes we have committed an infinite amount of both good and bad karma.
So that is sobering. It is a reminder that at any moment we could be overpowered or even lose our life. So while you are all right please study hard.
The good news is that there is no end to nirvana to couple with no beginning to samsara.
@Vanilli Kamma is unfathomable. The Buddha exhorts us tha Kamma is not to conjectured about'. And truly, it is best to not wonder why some things happen, and others don't; it most certainly is never a question of whether a person deserves something, or not.
This may help....
You are not correctly understanding karma. That is why it doesn't make sense.
This is good to read through, though it is a bit long.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html
Also, remember that we are talking lifetimes here, not one life. It doesn't mean she was a murderer in her last life and now had to be murdered here. We have no way of knowing how many life times ago she is working out karma for. Karma doesn't follow linear time. I don't really believe in that "eye for an eye" type of karma though, some do but it is not how it is taught to me by my teacher. Also, sometimes, things just happen. Not every experience that happens is a direct result of karmic influence. If I walk outside later and am hit by a run away car because the driver just had a heart attack, that doesn't mean it was karma in action.
When I first came to this forum I often used to get into these discussions about karma. But I have come to the following conclusions:
On few topics do Buddhists tend to become so definitive about their view, and on few topics in Buddhism are views (particularly East versus West) so diverse.
I reject any sense that people shouldn't conjecture about anything. We have freedom of thought. BUT, that doesn't mean we aren't spinning our wheels. [P.S., I don't expect those who contribute to this thread to go mad].
Maybe karma doesn't work in just "one way". Maybe karma doesn't work at all.
How can 'Action' not 'work'....?
Too vague to comment.
This young woman was physically present in an area of the world where people just like her are kidnapped and murdered, often. She is a Westerner, and worse a woman with her head uncovered, the very worst idea of 'woman' Sharia law demands. People doing her kind of 'work' are unfortunately murdered or kidnapped often in that part of the world. And she was there when it is getting particularly worse and publicizing the killing of westerner journalists or aid workers is just part of ISIL getting their message out.
If we're going to speculate how karma figures in to anything, the whole of the environment needs to be considered. She wasn't just a lovely young humanitarian -- she was that in the worst place in the world to BE that in. People like her are killed 'regularly' in that area
If she had any 'responsibility' or karma to claim, she walked right into it with her head high.
I wouldn't begin to go any further than that, myself. It makes a sad kind of sense she was killed, considering where she was and who she was serving.
I wish I could converse about the two things that get talked about quite often on forums, but the two I am at a loss about, is karma - and reincarnation. Whenever I see these things discussed, I think to myself, I never was even aware of them growing up, so they didn't 'figure in' to life. I wish I could relate, even in some small way about them...
@Vanilli If reality doesn't fit with a belief, which do you suppose is at fault, reality or the belief?
Many people have a view of karma as fate, where doing good means you're guaranteed a happy life. Obviously, bad things happen to good people and even worse, bad people get away with murder sometimes. So the concept of past and future life karma was invented to extend justice into some unknowable future. Makes us feel good, believing people get what they deserve, eventually.
Or maybe that's looking at karma as some independent thing you have, isolated from the rest of the world. Kayla chose to dedicate her life to helping others. She touched thousands of lives directly in a positive way by her actions, and even in her death caused millions more to stop and consider what a wasted tragedy war and hatred is, and see in her words the definition of bravery and compassion. That is the result of her actions. That is the fruit of her karma.
The men who kept her hostage and ended up being responsible for her death, on the other hand, will have left nothing behind but one more example of the depths the human mind is capable of sinking.
Your actions have consequences, not just for you but for the world. That's karma.
@Vanilli
This question is most often about "How can you call Karma fair when....x,y,z happens?".
The primary hurdle to overcome when approaching this is question requires some resolution of the ego based frame of reference, that underlines this question.
& that takes a whole lot of work.
The understandings to consider first though are
(1) While we look on "fair" as the balancing of sums of one particular life, karma's inertia is in no way constrained by the lifespan of whatever vehicle happens to be carrying it. Trying to use the sums and balances of any one life to measure karma's equation is more about our myopic view of existence than of the forces which propagate it.
(2) Every vehicle (sentient life) is usually the manifestation of the past inertia of countless different streams of karma that most never get to see. The vehicle (the average sentient being) is actually just a process of karma's inertia, not it's sum.
The workings of karma are very complex, involving a multiplicity of lifetimes, in some cases--hundreds. For this reason, the Buddha classified it as an "imponderable". That's all one can say about cases like this.
Sometimes. But that's my issue with the concept of karma. Personally, I believe in the concept, but I also wonder or is it all just coincidence.
Take, for example, some unwholesome act. Pick whichever one you like -- rape, theft, murder.
Now, either karma works or it doesn't.
Yet, how does karma (in whichever example you choose) work for a "moral person", an "immoral person", and then an "amoral person"?
That's why I sometimes wonder if karma is not something we actually create in our own mind, rather than something that actually exists.
I don't think we have to expand on it and make it so huge. All actions have consequences, positive, negative or neutral. If that is where one wants to leave it, nothing wrong with that. I mostly leave it there. I don't worry too much about karma or rebirth. I believe in both, but the details don't matter much to me. Like someone else said, imponderables. Things I will not know about until perhaps another point in my evolution...and then will forget again before rebirth. I don't think we are really meant to know those things, and probably for good reason. Imagine how it would affect our living our lives to have all that information. It probably wouldn't be a good thing.
Karma mostly seems to come into play when we worry about others. "She was such a good person, why would karma punish her?" but that really isn't how it works, and we don't really need to ponder the karma of others. We can't even know those things about ourselves, never mind someone else and their complicated web of life. When this topic comes up, I rarely see something contemplating some aspect of their own life and how karma relates to it. It's always wondering about someone else. We aren't all humanitarians who lost our lives to a horrible terrorist group. But we've all had varying degrees of challenges in our own lives, and some of them I'm sure have been horribly difficult even if you feel you can't compare them to the situation of Kayla Mueller. She, for now, has been released from wordly suffering. If she was the person she is portrayed to be, she will likely have a favorable rebirth, or life review, or meeting with God, or however you think the afterlife works. We're in much worse of a situation still being stuck here,
I prefer to understand karma outside of the context of rebirth. If karma is action, and the results of action, then all we can be assured of is that positive actions tend to produce positive results. It's not about reaping the benefits personally; while this may happen, thr point is to increase the net amount of good in the world. Even if I don't reap the benefits of this goodness, someone, somewhere . . . now, or maybe in the future . . . will. This is the essence of true compassion. If you are performing positive acts in the hope of reaping positive karma, then you are not truly being compassionate; you are essentially entering into a business contract, and you may be disappointed in results.
So, if we take away the mystical components of karma, we can understands that while my actions have repercussions, so do the actions of others, and my good karma does not magically shield me from the bad karma of others. Unfortunately, nothing can do this completely, although mindfulness may help us to minimize it in some cases, we are still subject to suffering and death since this is the nature of our being.
Time for me to post this yet again, not everything in the universe that happens is down to Karma.
The five niyamas:
http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/tp/The-Five-Niyamas.htm
Furthermore, I think that in order to understand Karma, we need to understand the illusory nature of the self/other dichotomy and the interconnectedness of all beings.
Here are a couple fictitious examples of how karma might work.
Ex 1 - Bad Karma
A man shoots and kills another man. He believes he was justified, and he is able to assuage any guilt he may have with this justification. He suffers no consequences, legally, so it would seem like he has gotten away with it. He goes on to live a full life, has a family, friends, children, and a successful career.
Unfortunately, the dead man had a son. This son grows up traumatized by the loss of his father. He turns to drugs to deal with his pain, and to crime to pay for his drug habit.
The shooter's own son starts a successful business as a shop owner. One night, while he is working late, he is robbed. During the course of the robbery, he is shot and killed.
Was this shooter the dead man's son? Unlikely, but possible. Many people who commit violent crimes are doing so because they are on drugs, and they are on drugs because of past trauma.
The original shooter, through his action of killing, has increased the net bad in the world, and has now lost his son years later. While he may not suffer physical harm, his emotional suffering will be great.
Ex 2 - Good Karma
A man comes upon a critically injured man in the street. He provides first aid and calls and ambulance, saving the man's life. They never meet again, and the good Samaritan eventually forgets about the act, having acted only out of what he saw as his duty to a fellow human being.
The man he saved had a son. His father, having been impressed by the life saving actions of this stranger, instills values of kindness and compassion into his son, which encourages his son to become a first responder.
Years later, he has a heart attack, and is lying near death. When the ambulance arrives, one particular paramedic is able to resuscitate him and get him to the hospital in time.
Is this paramedic the son of the saved man? Maybe, but even if not, he is the product of parents who enouraged him to care for others.
It's always possible that the son of the man who was saved could become the killer addict, and that the son of the murdered man could become the paramedic, but most of us know that we are products of our upbringing to a large extent, and we tend to reflect what our parents and peers teach, or fail to teach.
likewise....
and also!
When it comes to "why do bad things happen to good people," I like to think of the Hindus who seem to have a better sense of humor than the Buddhists.
A Hindu tale tells of a holy man walking through the forest meditating deeply on the view that all things are god. Suddenly, from behind him, he hears a crashing and bellowing in the trees. An elephant has gone mad and the mahout who is riding him is doing what he can to warn anyone in its path. "The elephant has gone mad! Get out of the way! The elephant has gone mad!" Unperturbed, the holy man continues on his path. If all things are god, surely the elephant cannot hurt him. And naturally the elephant runs him down.
When he wakes up in the hospital, a friend is seated near his bed. The holy man is awash in splints and bandages. "What happened?" the holy man asks. "The elephant ran you down, oh holy one," says the friend. "I don't understand," says the holy man. "If all things are god, why should the elephant run me down?" "It is true, oh holy one -- you are god and the elephant is god, but you seem to have forgotten that the mahout is god as well."
Bad things?
Good people?
It would help (me) if we had some definitions for these two.
My horse ran away. sad panda
My horse returned bringing wild horses with him. happy panda
My son tried to ride one of the wild horses, fell off and broke his leg. sad panda
The military came by and took all fighting age boys and men in good health...but not my son because he had a broken leg! happy panda
How much perspective does one need to become equanimity panda?
Rebirth? And a perspective on a good meal of bamboo?
look - it's very simple - too simple perhaps: if everything relates to everything else, and everything implies everything else, it is essential to realise that if everyone is good (let's call it a peak), all is good, and if everyone is bad (let's call that a trough) it's hellish, but if some behave and others misbehave, the peaks and troughs may well interfere with each other in a very unpredicatable way - either way, it's your doing
Sorry dont get this question at all. If Karma was real would that not be the very reason why bad things happen to good people?
The Buddha's teaching on karma is intended to be viewed in the context of innumerable lifetimes. Not really just this one life. He taught the karma we create now can bear fruit immediately, later on this life, in the next lifetime or in many lifetimes into the future. Beings alive today have been creating karma for 10,000 aeons. Because of this, it's not possible for ordinary people to understand and pin down the precise results of karma ripening. It's impossible to know precisely why "bad things happen to good people". In order to know that, you would essentially have to be able to see what kind of karma they have been making for the past 10,000 aeons. Impossible! At least for us ordinary folk.
How do you know that?
In my view karma occurs between, well is, the fine line between knowing and unknowing! To suggest otherwise is to be fully in control of everything. When you try to exert absolute authority and control on something to that extent - you change it, and it becomes unpredictable...
Karma is best left well alone to be what it is...
The question is exactly equivalent to the classic "Why does God allow evil to happen". Alas, the only sensible answer that I see is that there exists no external agent or force that doles out punishments and rewards based on one's moral standing. Be that Karma or God.
I take the teaching of Karma to not be the absolute. In general, the way we relate to the world has tremendous impact on the nature of our lives and that is what the teaching of "Karma" points to. But we don't control the world and when it makes waves big enough we'll drown in them regardless of how "good" or "bad" we are. I think that's what "karma" points to.
Yes, if we accept rebirth, Karma starts making sense and that is the only way it can make sense as an absolute truth. However, I do not see any basis for such acceptance, anymore than I see a reason to believe that Jesus was born to a virgin or that Greek gods live on top of Mt Olympus. For us humans it is very consoling to believe in some sort of universal retribution and that is why every tradition that I've heard of has some version of it.
To me, Karma boils down to: treat yourself and others wisely and compassionately, and your life is going to be happier than if you don't. This happens right here in this life and there is nothing mystical about it. It's kind of like being a good driver helping to avoid accidents but not guaranteeing anything-- if a sleepy driver in a big truck plows into you while you're stopped at a light, there's no karma there, it's just bad luck. But if you're a bad driver, you'll suffer an accident nearly for sure and likely much quicker than if you're a good driver.
I don't find leaping to belief in a mind that persists after death unreasonable considering that nobody knows why mind seemingly appears out of matter/body.
I think most of us don't find it unreasonable, but many of us do find it just a possibility.
Very wise thought.
If there is rebirth or reincarnation it only makes sense that cause and effect dictates the flow. That doesn't mean there is no element of dumb luck involved.
Being a good person may or may not get you a seat at a specific table (human, hungry ghost, god, bird...) but you still have to play the hand you are dealt.
There are good people? Well I never, must be bad people too? My little pony tales too . . . ?
Do good. Be kind. Expect Nothing. It will make your karma calmer. Job done.
Kamma works (or maybe not) in terms of a self. You do good and get good results in general. What happens when things appear not to work out?
That is when you realise it's time to get off the wheel of samsara and see things in terms of cause and effect rather than in terms of self.
Then there is this-
@Vanilli
Many moons ago (over 15 years ago) a kind Malaysian lady (a Buddhist) and I were having a chat about Buddhism in her shop, she then produced some booklets and gave me one on “Karma & Rebirth” (since then I've had the booklet copied many times, for friends who showed an interest in karma...)
http://nalanda.org.my/pustaka/senayan3-stable9/index.php?p=show_detail&id=3930
So here’s an excerpt from the booklet
'Venerable Manhinda' on 'Karma and Rebirth'
Understanding how Karma functions…
“The actions which we perform, may not necessarily give rise to immediate effect. Some actions may give rise to results only after some time, some give rise to results within this lifetime; some may only ripen in the next life; and still some others may ripen in successive births.
This phenomena can be compared to the germination of seeds. The seeds of some plants germinate very quickly; some may take a longer time. Alfafa seed, for example, grows almost immediately, within 2 or 3 days, but the seeds of mango or avocado plants may take quite some time to germinate.
So, when a kind and virtuous person suffers, he suffers not because of the good or wholesome deeds which he has done. He suffers because of certain evil or unwholesome actions which he has done in the past; either in the immediate past or the more remote past, i.e. in his previous births. Although he might have forgotten about the actions which he had committed, the actions have not forgotten him!
That is how we explain why some good people may encounter various misfortunes and sufferings. And on the other hand, how a wicked and cunning person may be enjoying his life!”
Make of this what you will (Wheel)
Mostly because the below would make no sense at all if you look at it from the perspective of only one lifetime.
@anataman Buddha explained that karma works across the lifetimes, that present circumstances are (in part) the product of karma ripening, perhaps from many lifetimes ago.
My view of karma and rebirth changes pretty often. I believe in both, but the details change. I don't pay much mind to them, because they get worked out as I continue my study and practice. I don't completely reject the idea that someone suffering today is stuck so because of things they did in previous lives. It's not always easy to consider, but how can you not? Does it mean everyone who is suffering with disease or starvation or whatever is the result of karma? No, but some of it likely is.
It's not fun for me to consider that maybe my 6 year old suffers with diabetes because of something in a previous life. He's incredibly affectionate, thoughtful and caring, so it's hard for me to consider him as anything but my current sweet child. But really, he's the product of many lifetimes, no doubt some he's done bad things in. If that's the case, I'm glad he has the opportunity to work some of it out now. I just don't focus on it because it doesn't matter. I don't know, and thus not much sense wasting time pondering it. Perhaps my ex that died, who suffered horribly in his life, was working on karma. Maybe he wasn't. I hope that he was, though, at least all his suffering would have had some purpose and hopefully he worked it out and won't suffer so much in his new life. My kids suffer to a degree having no father, but perhaps that is a ribbon between them that needed working out, too. Again, I have no way of knowing the complexities of that. They might be my children in this lifetime, but they have been the children, mothers, fathers and so on of others in many lives.
I guess I personally don't understand the hang up of "how can such a good person die in such a horrible way!" because it's not for us to know. It involves her and her many lifetimes (both ago and to come) along with those of her captors and those who are responsible for her death. It also involves her loved ones and their karma. Not something we can even begin to ponder.
The best bit of advice I can think of, is on the lines of what HHDL once said:
If you wish to know your past life, look at your body now.
If you wish to know your future life, look at your Mind now.
We can only do the best we can, with the tools we have, NOW.
Compassion for others, compassion for ourselves.
Make the best of it.
This is all you've got.
The overall questions and answers about karma are confounding. But the "hang up", as you describe it, is easy to understand. We all want things in our (or their) life to be fair. And many such things in life are not "fair".
I guess on that level, yes, I do understand where it stems from. But to me, it seems karma goes hand-in-hand with rebirth, and when you look at it across a spectrum of lifetimes, it is easier to accept. For someone who is trying to accept karma without accepting rebirth, it would be much more difficult for sure.
I don't really think it's possible to consider kamma without at least having an open attitude to 'rebirth'....
Again, I have an ever-changing view of karma, and don't believe anyone has it figured out, but the karma-over-multiple lifetimes is what makes the concept seem so grossly unfair to me.
Yes, I agree. Which is why, even if I don't refuse to consider it, (that is to say, specifically, I try to remain open-minded because I simply DON'T KNOW) I think it's futile to even go there. It's the "Why is life unfair?" syndrome taken a step further... "Oh yes, here's why, probably...."
Kamma is so complex, that even having downloaded a doofus' Guide to different 'types' of kamma - I'm still "D'uh....?" Good grief, even those who seem most authoritatively placed to comment constructively, can't agree - what hopes we poor hoi poloi...?
@Vanilli , everyone, I found this text, so it may help. At least it's not peppered with repetititve, technical difficult-to-digest teachings and observations.
To be blunt, if you omit the section (7), titled "Survey of Buddhist Cosmology" which to be honest may be taken or left, as wished (I don't think it helps me personally to construct any finer comprehension of Kamma) the remainder of the document is at least a good banquet for thought, if nothing else....
Like maybe they learned just enough in their last life to land them as human but just barely. If that's true then at least they are headed in the right direction.
It's odd though... when we hear of animals performing heroic deeds, unprompted and untrained, but on impulse, or we see the unconditional love they give us as human owners, it seems a bit of a backward step for them to be born in a human realm, next (if we take that as a read progression....)
Interesting that you @vinlyn find it unfair, while I find it comforting. I have no problem at all with the idea of karma carrying through many lifetimes. This person might not remember what I did and why I am suffering for it 1,000 years later, but I think on a deeper level my consciousness does and it opens a door to another level of understanding if you choose to go there. If you learn how. I don't mean learning how to see your past lives or anything, but learning how to see the gifts in everything, even the most challenging thing imaginable.
I, for one, think the most horrible thing I could imagine right now is one of my children suffering a horrible illness and then dying (or not dying and suffering horribly for a long period). But so many people have been through it and they do find gifts in it,and it seems that if that person had not had to go through that, then the gifts would not be there. In some ways, those gifts can help many people in the world, so that is a good thing despite the suffering and loss. Most of the charity organizations we have stemmed from a person or a group of people suffering through something to an extent that someone decided to try to do something about it. So out of a single situation, can come help for many others. That's just one example, of course.
Perhaps in the situation of Kayla Mueller, she suffered, no doubt, being detained. We don't know how much she suffered in her death, if at all. But if she was working out karma, she left on fairly good terms and will likely have a rebirth that continues the work she was doing, perhaps on a higher level. Maybe her past karma that had to be worked out was holding her back from even bigger things. Perhaps she is released from those restrictions now.
I could choose to focus on what a horrible thing it was for my ex to suffer so much in his life, with abuse and mental illness and addiction. But I can also look at what a gift he gave me in our children, who are very much part of him and seem so far to have collected the good parts of him and left the difficulties. It's all in how we choose to see things.
Personally though, I doubt the Earth is the only place to be reborn and can imagine places with less favorable conditions.