What are we supposed to do from Zen perspective?
misecmisc1
I am a HinduIndia Veteran
hi all,
i was trying to understand that as per Zen, what should we do in our lives?
the confusion is because Zen teaches that ultimately we cannot understand it, but only experience the (whatever you put here - truth, ultimate reality etc) - and then do not hold onto that experience even.
so are we supposed to just sit in zazen all the time - or are we supposed to act like zombies or robots who do not have any brain? as any how the brain is not going to be used - as understanding, thinking all these logical stuff will add to our confusion.
now somebody will say that while doing the activity, just do the activity. So if suppose i am sitting (not zazen, but sitting like in a park or after lunch), then what should i do - just sit and what to do with the mind - not try to make it blank, so then should we just open our 5 senses to just experience whatever is going on currently around us, without trying to analyze this experience - if this is, then how to do it because the mind tries to analyze the seeing which is happening, checking if we are in here and now, and also trying to be aware of the body and its sensations, try to be with body and in all these, there is thinking going on, which would make us not totally aware in the here and now.
if the answer to above is develop calm through zazen first, then is it not a catch 22 or a deadlock situation? because till the calm is not developed in zazen, our minds will be getting entangled in sense-objects through out the day and due to our minds getting entangled in sense-objects through out the day, no calm develops in zazen. in addition, due to limited time for zazen, the whole time usually goes by with the mind getting entangled in thoughts and with correcting the body posture through-out the whole sitting duration.
so what to do? any suggestions, please. thanks in advance.
Comments
Isn't there a Zen expression which goes "Chop wood, carry water, get enlightened, then chop wood and carry water"?
One thing that I find attractive about Zen is that their priests can get married and have children 'n' stuff, so I guess that means they engage in all the normal day to day stuff that we're expected to engage in (friendship, sharing, practising patience, tolerance, etc).
I tried three times to answer your question, and three times had to hit the delete key. The problem is, any answer I give that will mean something depends on who is doing the asking. See, it's not that Zen cannot be understood, but that people insist it must be something it is not. Zen isn't complicated and it's not mysterious and it's not magical. It's just training your mind to see the world as it is. The great Masters keep pointing that out and people nod and say "Man, that's deep. Wonder what they mean by that?"
What are you supposed to be doing with Zen? Whatever you're supposed to be doing. In your example of sitting on the bench, why are you sitting on the bench? Are you watching your children play in the park? Then pay attention to your children. Are you eating lunch in a relaxing setting? Then eat your lunch and enjoy the fresh air. Are you waiting for the bus? Then wait for the bus. What else is there to do?
Do you see the problem? That doesn't sound very special. That's enlightenment? Surely Zen must be more than that. What about those monks sitting in Zazen all day every day?
That's what they're supposed to be doing. They're monks. Are you a monk? No? Then why are you trying to imitate them instead of doing what your own life demands?
Do dishes, chop wood. What part of that isn't clear?
Struggle with koans and get hit by sticks...
@Cinorjer: Agreed sir, with what you have written above. But something inside me says then what is the difference between me and another person, who is not in direct contact with spirituality (i am saying spirituality because i want to generalize it, as whichever religion we belong, there can broadly be classified two streams - materialistic view and spiritual view) - so what difference remains between a materialistic person and a spiritual person - both try to do the work at hand in an attentive way - a materialistic person would be doing it more seriously, as he has to achieve his goal - but may be here might come the difference as the spiritual person might be doing it in a relaxed manner where as the materialistic person might be feeling the pressure of having to achieve the goal.
But what about the spiritual effect? How does it come about - meaning see the defilements inside us are there and in just doing our activities, we are not working on things which reduce our defilements - then how will the defilements in our mind get reduced and finally eliminated?
As a matter of discussion/philosophy/religion, I don't know anyone interested in Zen who can't contrive all sorts of difficulties/contradictions/paradoxes and other intellectually- or emotionally-disturbing thoughts. It's like Christmas shopping -- ask the sales clerk to wrap the wonderful gift in beautiful paper ... with ribbons, naturally. That's the "should" part, the intellectual part; the emotional part. Pretty sexy, right?
The problem arises when anyone attempts to open the Christmas present without actually opening it. Intellect and emotion are human traits and there is no escaping them, but how successful have they proved in dissolving life's problems in the past? Does this approach adequately address the question that might be phrased as, "If I'm so smart, how come I'm not happy?"
I don't know anyone interested in Zen who hasn't done the "robot" complaint ... all these goodie-two-shoes students toeing a stylized mark ... sometimes it's enough to make you scream, "What the hell good is it?!"
Zen places some emphasis on zazen or seated meditation. Does it/will it work? There simply is no way of knowing until you consent to give it a whirl ... open the package instead of discussing/controlling/being ever so smart about opening the package. If you want to be in control and wise ... well, get a dog.
My take is that Zen practice is a discipline that offers (whether it provides or not is another question) a way of clarifying confusions in a (at last) satisfactory way. Since what Buddhists call "suffering" (unsatisfactoriness) is an equal-opportunity employer, Zen practice may be a good tool ... or maybe not: Your life, your choice. One thing is for sure: Playing the intellectual and emotional cards doesn't work very well, so ... take your pick and find out what tools may be more effective. Whine, whimper, extol, critique -- doesn't there come a time to put up or shut up? to grab the ribbon on the Christmas present and just pull? to sit down, straighten the spine, focus the mind and ... see what happens?
I wouldn't recommend this to the faint of heart ... getting another dog is so much easier ... maybe.
Love it; nicked for use in A.A.. I think it's beautifully apt for people like me.
Carry water, chop wood, sit Zazen...
repeat.
Spirituality? Well, now you're addressing the Buddhism part of Zen Buddhism. People sometimes think "Be mindful" is all there is to a happy life. I remind people that a man who pulls a gun on you and demands your money is being very, very mindful.
So mindfulness is obviously not enough. Zen Buddhism takes that mindfulness and then asks, what is it being mindful? What is this mind? Buddha says suffering is all in our mind, what is doing the suffering? And we jump down the rabbit hole and eventually realize the emptiness of self. Without the illusion of self, your world is transformed. Sitting on the park bench watching the children play becomes a spiritual experience precisely because that's what you're supposed to be doing and what the children are supposed to be doing. Yet, all you're doing is sitting quietly, watching the children play, same as before. The difference is the journey you took to get there.
"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment chop wood, carry water."
Read forum, type response.
Namaste, my friend.
So what is the approach with this second stage? I guess koans, but any other tools in the box?
@genkaku : thanks for your reply. you have written pretty much clarifying stuff for me.
@Cinorjer : hmm.. thank you.. some doubts in process of getting clarified.
i heard a dhamma talk by a Zen monk over Dogen's Fukanzazengi. Let me tell what I got from it about how to do zazen, so that you all may tell if i understood something incorrectly or if i am missing something:
In this text, Dogen after specifying the physical posture like spine straight, ears parallel to shoulders, nose in line with navel, eyes half open at 45 degrees with not focussing it rather gentle gaze - after this the only instruction is think not thinking - how do you think not-thinking - the answer is non-thinking. so when a thought arises in the mind, just go back to the posture and breath - nothing else is needed to be done.
So my understanding of how to do zazen is this - basically after maintaining the straight spine sitting posture, nothing is done but if a thought arises, then we go back to the posture of the body and just be with whatever comes next - if a breath is coming or going, see it - if some tension is felt on the face near eyes, then relax that tension.
Is my above understanding of how to do zazen ok or am i missing something here?
Moreover, in zazen do we need to focus on breath or we just try to be aware of our body posture or we just be aware of whatever is occurring? In other words, while sitting in zazen, where should we focus?
Also i usually find keeping my eyes open or even half-open at 45 degrees quite distracting and i find closing my eyes more easy - so is it mandatory to keep the eyes open at 45 degrees and having the gaze gentle?
Please suggest. Thanks in advance.
At the Zen monastery I attend...we are told to sit down. Of course, if you sit too hunched over, it can hurt your back, and cause other physical problems, but a strict way to sit is not enforced, we are merely educated on why sitting 'better' is better for your body. AFA your mind/thoughts/brain, etc... Whatever happens while sitting....happens. When you feel like jumping up and/or getting frustrated...stay still. stay there. What this process means for people and how/what they do with it is a different story for different people. Do Christians put this much emphasis on correct praying? No. Do it, then do what you will with the information you obtained while praying. Some days are full of information/letting go...some days, your doing it just to be doing it. But doing it nonetheless.
I agree that Zen is not as complicated as people make it out to be...whats hard about it is...no one will figure it out for you...or give you the answers...it's all on you, kid. No one can do it for you. Most people like their hand held...or spoon feed..or helped along...which can work in the short run...but it's only you who can finish the race/die. This is experience. How would you tell someone what a orange tastes like? They would never 'know' unless they experienced it for themselves.
BTW...we also do walking meditation....so the rules on how to sit are out the window. What do you do then?
Meditation, of course. Studying the sutras. Reading the words and stories of the old Masters. Listen to the words of today's Masters and Teachers. Getting out there and putting your practice into action, and then picking yourself up off the ground when you fail. The usual. Sometime later, you'll look back and realized you've managed to live a pretty good life, all things considered, helped a few people along the way, and maybe learned a thing or two. You've been a Buddha all along and never noticed it.
@misecmisc1 I gave up on formal zazen posture when my knees decided they'd had enough. Formal zazen is sitting at attention. It's not supposed to be relaxing or even particularly conductive to meditation. Zazen springs from the military boot camp approach to Zen of the Japanese temples. If you can do it, I'm happy for you. Most Westerners I've known struggle even after years of agony. We haven't been sitting on a wooden floor instead of chairs all our lives. So if you're in a zazen hall, do whatever it takes to keep the Teacher with the stick happy. Otherwise, you know the basics. Straight back, legs folded as much as the knees will let you, hands on lap, droopy eyelids but usually not closed. Deep breath and let it out slow, and relax. Now meditate the heck out of the fifteen minutes or so you choose to sit and do it.
@misecmisc1
It is not to think...not thinking.... but rather is about just sitting with no deliberate thought that **is **the important aspect of thought within Zazen
This is actually no different than not deliberately trying to see something in meditation or hear something in particular as it is with tasting/ smelling or feeling.
This is about allowing all of your sense gates to freely operate, where our identity construct would otherwise be micromanaging it all towards it"s own agenda.
Try it next time you find yourself on a park bench. The focus is simply on allowing all that sense data an uncorrupted passage past our habit of trying to control it all.
Much of Zen is not focusing on one sense gate to the exclusion of the others.
If the operation of your sight sense gate (eyes open) means that you are finding that distracting, that is just pointing out how you are presently allowing that particular sense gate to dominate over all the others.
Somewhere you are giving this particular sense gate a directive to do that. Zazen with your eyes open (and a little acceptance that Zazen has nothing to do with what is easy) will eventually allow you to find out why & how you are actually giving it that directive..
I'm not clear about the distinction you're making here. If we're sitting on a park bench for example and we notice somebody attractive walking past and follow them with our eyes - is that allowing our senses to operate freely, or is it micromanaging based on our personal agenda?
@misecmisc1 -- My training began with what others refer to scoffingly as the "boot camp" approach to Zen practice. I was a remain knock-kneed, so sitting cross-legged or in lotus was far from the pain-free adventure I might have hoped for. Years later, a teacher and monastery abbot would tell me that "for the first 17 years, my legs hurt a lot." And if legs pain were the worst of it, we'd all be in clover.
So ... is pedal-to-the-metal, masochistic practice required? Maybe or maybe not. I couldn't say. I could say, however, that at some juncture addressing the pain that life serves up is an important part of the practice. No more soft-soaping! Right into hell! If everything is easy, what will anyone do when things get hard? On the other hand, the old saying is true: "The hard stuff is easy. It's the easy stuff that is hard."
For starting purposes***, I think Dogen's shikantaza is a pretty tough nut and counting exhalations from one to ten and beginning again is more sensible. Counting offers a (non-existent) hand-hold and leads without any prompting into shikantaza or so-called "just sitting." No, it doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. Whether it works the other way as well, I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
Eyes open will keep you awake and build strength. But the universe won't collapse if you ignore this or any other suggestion.
All this is just a bit of thinking out loud.
*** And if by chance you ever learn to count exhalations perfectly, your training will be complete and you can chuck all this Buddhist nonsense.
I think — but this is just a lousy practicioner opinion — that all the practices and techniques in Zen are meant for you to understand that there is nothing you can do.
See something appealing, see something that's not ..senses freely operating.
Directing your sight to follow one and not the other and that's micromanaging.
Zazen is about noticing all that we experience..As far as sight goes... What we see **and **the how, when, why & where we are subject to what we see.
Perhaps this is a good place to ask what equanimity actually is?
That is just one perspective. There are others!
But you have to do nothing with complete, unbroken, supreme effort. Don't forget that part.
Isn't Zen wonderful?
So basically practising mindfulness then?
I would suggest it is balance or calm in imbalance. In other words we do focus, have tight spots, imbalances, life extremes and unbalanced life choices. Sometimes.
However as we move into calm, balance, less of the self grabbing and identifying, these very extremes tend to center and dissipate with increasing equanimity ...
That be the plan!
You're sounding like a pirate now! But how would a lobster get a parrot to sit on his shoulder?
^^^ A trick I learned from the Romans at Easter. Nails.
NB: No pirate talking fowls were fouled in arrrr email . . .
I heard in a dhamma talk given by a Zen monk, the word intimate being used. In a commentary, the following lines were written:
Among the myriad sounds, there is perceiving and there is understanding. In reality,
there’s only whole body and mind intimacy. Hearing intimately is not like ordinary hearing. Ordinary hearing is done with the ear. In intimacy there is hearing with the eye and seeing with the ear. How do you hear with the eye and see with the ear? Let go of the ear, and the whole body and mind is nothing but the ear. Let go of the eye, and the whole universe is nothing but the eye.
So does this intimacy which is referred to above - does it occur at the end of many years of practice of zazen - or is it something, which we can feel even in start, though may be for a very very small duration?
Moreover, what does hearing intimately actually mean - does it mean that we try to hear carefully - or does it mean the hearing which is occurring say when our focus is not on hearing but on something else like our breathing or our posture or trying to feel in the here and now whatever is arising? If when we try to hear carefully, that is hearing intimately, then we are using our ear, so i think this should not be hearing intimately as per above definition. On the other hand, if our focus is not on hearing, but say on breathing, then i think we would not even hear properly the sounds which would be arising - so how can this be hearing intimately. So what is this thing - hearing intimately - is it something like the end result of the practice like nirvana, which cannot be explained and even cannot be done - in a way, making the above sentences in italics just become some zen talk, which do not have any meaning?
any thoughts here, please. thanks in advance.
Possibly this is pointing to the practice of mindfulness, paying close attention to the immediate experience of hearing ( whatever ). In an ideal world we could ask the monk to explain himself in plain English!
Intimacy is an interesting word the monk is using. I like it. He is using that term instead of "connection" for a change in this little talk and that might be a more accurate description of what is meant. Connection is impersonal. You connect the dots. You connect a cable to the television. Intimate means a connection that is personal and affects you deeply. Intimacy means you've opened up and shared the experience. It's the difference between shaking hands with a stranger and hugging your mate.
Bodhidharma's "outline of practice" addresses this I think.
Another translation here.
http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/C - Zen/Ancestors/The Zen Teachings of Bodhidharma/The Zen Teachings of Bodhidharma/THE ZEN TEACHINGS OF BODHIDHARMA.htm
One very important note, though. Zen was originally practiced by monks and a lot of writing out there targets monks, not us modern people with jobs and families. For that reason, a Sangha is of vital importance as seeing 21st century people practice and function in this environment gives invaluable perspective. I would never have stuck with Zen if I was doing it alone.
Good luck!
^^^^^^
My sense is that everyone, at one time or another, struggles with the question, "Am I out of my cotton-pickin' mind?!" That's the nature of any thorough-going investigation or practice. Going alone is not for sissies. A line in the Dhammapada observes, more or less, "And if you find no equal or better in this life/ Go alone./ Loneliness is preferable to the company of fools."
But who is the fool? I don't want to be taken as a fool. I haven't yet got the courage for that. And then, as @shadowleaver suggests, "after mental dust settled I would feel that I simply did not know of anything better to guide me through this crazy life. And back to the cushion I would go."
The welcome mat outside the door invites the fools, not the wise (wo)men.
^^ few months back, i was searching for the teachings of the 6 patriachs of zen on google. i came across the above link too and even read it, but seems like i just read it, but not understood it. hmm.. zen seems too complicated by being too simple
Bad luck for me then
- my spiritual journey began more than 2 years ago through accident (not physical accident, but through a series of incidents) - anyways, i do not have time to search for a monastry or find a physical teacher for meditation instructions, nor is there any monastry near my work-place. so the only option for me seems to be is to do it alone, if it continues - this is a question. 
I'm sure you'll do well on your own. I'm doing a fair job of it, if I do say so myself!
@misecmisc1 -- On a wild guess, I'd say that everyone -- and I do mean everyone -- is in the same predicament.
Just out of curiosity...Are you still a practicing Hindu?
@misemisc1
Or vice versa?
For me I start with feeling of the body and letting go. Feel the tension or whatever is there. I often do a body scan but not always for a little while. Then I sit and note the breath. If I drift off into lala land I just return and feel the body and breath again. Every so often I touch into my heart qualities such as patience, joy, awareness, love that are in my heart automatically. I don't day dream about them I just remember that the meditation has something to do with my heart. My heart is the qualities of awakening. In the present. Spacious. Back to breath. Let go. Back to breath. Let go. If I am really distracted like obsessing over video game character designs I might count or if doing walking meditation go super slow so that speeding up notifies me of day dreaming.
Another thing I do is read something short before meditating. Like flip to a page of a book on teachings and read a paragraph or two. I never remember anything anyways and I don't analyze the teaching during the meditation but I hope it has some benefit for me I don't now?
I used to ask my teacher questions like these and he kept saying "zen is not about understanding things". LOL
I asked another teacher about the simplicity of zen once, he said "Yes, it's very simple, we make it complicated". LOL
i am a Hindu by religion. as far as practicing is concerned, i do not know whether i am even practicing or not practicing spirituality on a general level, leave about whether it is as per Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Christianity etc.
Ah, the old Zen poetry jam. I remember it well.
"But Teacher, I don't understand!"
"Zen is not about understanding things."
"Then what are you trying to teach?"
"Not a thing."
"Then what am I here for?"
"When you can answer that question, then you can teach me."
And so it goes.
I'm sure it's all very profound, but I don't understand any of it.
^^^ tee hee.
Zen, chan, Dhyana, Buddha raises flower (allegedly).
I remember Zen being described along with Tantra as a 'fire path'. A one lifetime to enlightenment. That really is because of the emphasis on meditation. You can not gain anything from meditating except experience. Eventually when you tire of experiences ...
Nothing.
A flower raises.
lol
. Actually these days I am studying the 300 koans collection of Dogen. Somehow I am finding them interesting, even though most of them I do not understand, but the commentary given below each koan seems to help to clarify some of the things in the koan and the capping verse and notes provided for each koan seem insightful.
You were brought up Hindu. I was brought up papist (Catholic Christian). Others may have Jewish or secular upbringing.
We are defined by in part where we place our attention. So you have a penchant for Zen but might benefit from a Hindu meditation teacher (Buddha used them) if these are more readily available.
I was in two of my favourite peaceful abodes today (a church and a museum) for you it might be a little used temple. The attachment to stylistic spirituality does eventually leave as we begin to find zen, spirituality, Krishna, YHWH, Christ etc everywhere ...
... "everywhere" always stuck me as a bit uppity since it leaves out the unexamined terrain of "no where."
But that's just me.
relax
well, i do not know about any Hindu meditation teacher either at my work-city. the only place i can search to find help is internet. nearly 2 years ago, i even struck spirituality through internet - kind of a weird thing, but for the last 2 years, i have searched for topics and got urls, pdfs on internet for teachings on Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism etc - the only book which i have bought till now is Shreemad Bhagwad Geeta - which i bought nearly 5 years ago, but did not read it until 2 years back when i read its full commentary on internet and after reading that, then i read the book
. Had internet not been there, i would not have even struck spirituality.
Coming to Zen, i can say that somehow i like Zen a little-bit because of the approach it takes that it all comes down to each moment, which is complete in itself, so no path which leads to awakening, rather in each moment truth is facing us, the only question seems to be where are we. May be i am kind of lazy person, so finding in Zen that there is really nobody to achieve anything - kind of relaxes me a little bit - may be sometimes i give it as an excuse for having not sitted, moreover my sitting is not even meditation because of my mind getting entangled in thoughts easily and also due to my weak focus. Also since i am not in Zen monastry, so i am saving myself from getting the blows of sticks by Zen masters due to not doing zazen properly
. As far as koans are concerned, i am kind of liking it now a little-bit, because it gives my brain something to think about, though brain has not to be used to see through it - but the commentary and the notes of the koans kind of tells what the koan is trying to teach us - again since i am not in a Zen monastry, so there is no Zen master, who is asking me to answer the questions of the koans, so again I save myself from getting hit by the master due to answering stupidly to the questions of the koans 
.
@misecmisc1 -- I do hope you are doing a little meditation practice. Meditation has a way of dealing honestly with the confusions anyone might face. Go ahead and be confused. Go ahead and be of two minds about one discipline or another. Go ahead and read a hundred holy texts. Go ahead and imagine how sincere you might be. Go ahead and buy a houseboat.
But for a few minutes each day -- no exceptions -- follow through on your promise to meditate. Don't worry if it's "good" meditation or "bad "meditation" -- just DO it. The whole exercise may be dumber than a box of rocks, but there is more reliable information in your quiet, mindful moments than in all the world's temples and libraries combined.
@genkaku: thanks for your above suggestion. actually from the last 3 weeks, i am feeling slight pain in my both knees. i am fearing that i might have damaged my knees due to trying to sit in full lotus posture for few months on a daily basis, with some off-days for example when i would be travelling by train in morning. even though my meditation is far from any calmness, rather my meditation cannot even be called meditation as my mind easily gets entangled in thoughts and my focus is weak - so if i have hurt both my knees and due to it not able to sit on ground in even normal cross-legged posture, then will acts of at least trying to be mindful like when drinking tea, walking after lunch etc can these acts help in the practice - or - is it a total case of no hope of any insight arising in mind without sitting meditation? i can sit on a chair, but most of the time it is in office and you can understand that sitting on a cushion on a chair in office might seem awkward - moreover, i am more comfortable sitting on ground for meditation than on chair - but unfortunately i have developed pain in my both knees for the last 3 weeks, which i can feel through out the day, so seems like i should now stop sitting on the ground.
any suggestions here, please. thanks in advance.
@misecmisc1
A mediation posture is whatever position you can most easily maintain that does not require continual muscular readjustments, create distracting pain or lead to sleepiness.
A weak focus can be addressed by any concentration on the feel of the natural breath. The degree that you work on such a concentration can simply depend on how much of this directed attention is needed to maintain itself. As your focus develops, the breath focus can be let go of until you find yourself in need of it again.
Remember that most analysis of ones meditation is only our mentality looking for a holiday from another moment of meditation,
@misecmisc1-- My Zen teacher, who was the abbot of a Japanese monastery in his later years, told me once that for the first 17 years of his zazen practice, his legs hurt like hell. This is not to suggest that you "tough it out"or something similar. Sitting cross-legged is the most stable sitting position, but everyone has to work out his or her own balances and simultaneously recall the words of the old guy who asked, "When has zazen ever had anything to do with sitting on a cushion?"
Is it hard, is it painful, is it confusing, is it faultless, is it riddled with fault, is it good, is it bad, is it tall, is it short, is it perfect, is it imperfect .... blah, blah, blah: Just DO it. Use the energy you put into the analyses and critiques and put it towards (if you find it useful) counting the exhalations from one to ten and beginning again. Just DO it. Don't ask why and don't worry about because. Set foolishness like "meaning" and "explanation" and "improvement" aside. Just DO it ... a little each day ... every day ... forever. If anyone could explain to you why this is a good idea, they would be lying. Only you are capable of the truth.
So....