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Two Monks and a woman
Grayman
Veteran
in Philosophy
https://workingwithinsight.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/two-monks-and-a-woman-story/
Does this mean we never consider that past, or does it mean we hold no 'emotional' attachment to the past, or obsess over the past?
If we never consider the past how can we consider the future? How do we know were we are now? How do we improve?
What are your thoughts?
0
Comments
My thoughts are that you're over-thinking again....!
We consider the past.
We just don't cling to it like a crutch to justify, excuse or reason our current behaviour.
It's unchangeable, so we need to let it go, not dwell on it, and consign it to where it belongs.
Obsessing over the past is unskilful, unwise and inadvisable, because the past is something unreliable.
Every time we remember a past event, we only THINK we're remembering it.
In actual fact, all we're remembering is the occasion we last remembered it.
So if the last time you thought about, say, your uncle's birthday party, was on tuesday, and you think of it again today, you're only remembering what you were thinking about on Tuesday.
Not the actual party itself.
Therefore memory is unreliable, and should not be dwelt upon to any significant degree....
We cannot consider the future, and anyone who thinks they can, is wrong.
You can tentatively PLAN for the future, but do not hold onto plans as certainties.
By all means, look at the chronological future - mark appointments, birthdays, commitments, anniversaries.... but there is no guarantee they'll ever come round....
One improves by realising that the past and the future are illusory.
The only instant that counts - is right Now.
Excellent reply @federica, I would have said something similar myself.
One of the best insights I have gained from the NB website is that thoughts represent only a meagre aspect of what is happening...
I will consider responding to each point appropriately but for now let me give you a picture of my current situation so that we are on the same page.
I do not see the now as absolute truth. I can only deduce the greatest probability of what my body senses in the environment. Although the now is the most probable truth the human mind is built to find patterns from the past to conclude likely future patterns so that we can adapt to the environment in amazing ways.
I see the human mind like the heart and the lungs and my thoughts like my breath.
So should I slow my breathing? By how much? Should I calm my heart and if so how many beats per minute? I recently thought, just now, that perhaps I should just let it be.
I cannot go through my whole life trying to control my breath or stopping it. No, I will just let it be and experience it. The truth is that 'this' is my natural thinking pattern and to slow it down would be like you slowing your breath beyond it's natural limit and then eventually feeling an uncomfortable tightness in your chest that notifies you of a lack of oxygen.
You are not wrong about memory being inaccurate but it has shown to be necessary in pattern recognition. Dementia and Alzheimer's are examples on the importance of memory and past recollection.
In the story I do not see the issue being that the younger monk was stuck in ideas as it states in the comments but that he was emotionally absorbed in the past to the point that he was making false relations and letting his fears attach his mind to implausible realities. With an open mind, he could have seen, not only that being with a women is unrelated to helping a human being in need but would have also seen the things that brought them to this situation and how to move, not only themselves through it but also see the woman's situation as well. Instead his thoughts were closed upon himself and his own reality never considering all the reality that exists outside the one created of his fear.
there is nothing wrong with remembering. it is just an arising like any other arising. the story is just a provisional teaching. you can't extrapolate it to "never have a memory"
It wasn't my intention to convey that. I only felt that memory, the past, and conclusions of the past, thinking on a long or detailed level, and thinking continuously are generally seen as things to avoid to the point of almost being non-existent.
At least through the general interpretations and implementations of Buddhist practices by many, on an intuitive level, this is what I see. I wish to discuss the specifics of how these things should be viewed so that I can reformat my understanding.
@Grayman
There can be rules of behavior to help one address attachments
just as attachments can develop for the blind following of rules.
The beginning and end of this story was actually at the river bank where one monk knowing the reasoning behind the rules acted within them, whereas the other monk who did not know the reason behind them, broke them. You can decide which was which.
That an attachment was born and carried down the road had little significance in the original teaching other than to show the degree of suffering that could result from an attachment.
The story was not about the rules but the importance of understanding the intent of the rules to not result in attachment.
An attachment, even to what might be considered holy, will still bear bitter fruit.
This particular commentary that focuses on the time aspect has it's own agenda to address but
the past & future simply reflects either suffering's cause or it's cessation whenever we hang onto or release whatever leash ties us to either.
@Grayman, I think the older monk understood that the spirit of the rules was to avoid a disturbance of lust in his mind or even breaking vows to be with a woman. So he knew the intent and he knew that simply carrying the woman over the stream was not a violation of the intent because he would never see the woman again. The younger month was not really 'attached' in a huge way it is just he was inexperienced and was worried about 'the letter' of the rule rather than the intent.
I think it is the nature of mind to get lost occasionally and think of the past. It's also the nature of the mind to notice this and come back to the present. So there is a difference between getting lost in the past versus using the past memories as a tool to solve a problem. So we have this tool but unfortunately a lot of our time we are 'lost' as I say. We might lose the benefit of the tool and instead have anxiety from looking back neurotically or what have you.
I did not think I was allowed to have any? Have to leave them by the stream of consciousness? What is a gal to do without a monk or two to carry us across ...
Apparently, you are not allowed to express yourself in gentle sarcasm either.
I think the junior monk was just jealous
I was thinking he lusted for fame also! They shall call him the Swordless White Knight and he shall be famous among the river women who will fawn over his gleaming armor of monkhood.
And he was a senior monk. He is a legend!
Haha.
The simple answer is to discern which thoughts, and how you evaluate and process them, are conducive to positive and productive Practice.
If something you dwell on, advances your practice, nurture the process and build on it.
If something you dwell on, inhibits your practice, discard and abandon it as unskilful.
The monk that carried the physical burden managed to let it down. Whether he had a mental burden during that time was not mentioned but certainly didn't carry it with him.
As for the criticizing monk...... well. It isn't even his burden to bear.
Yes, it's obsessing over the past that problematic, as is obsessing over the future. Also being so wrapped up in the past of future that we miss the present moment.
Suppose I use the time of a mundane task like 'washing dishes' to sort and calculate possible solutions to a project I am working on? While driving I use the time to examine political mindsets and dynamics to determine good voting decisions on the next ballot? And while sweeping I determine more efficient methods for cleaning?
Shouldn't I utilize my time in mundane and simple tasks to resolve more problematic and time consuming decisions? Or should I live in the moment trying to find importance in the task itself? Or is the moment not contained in that single task but inclusive to things even beyond my vicinity and current goal? Is mindfulness being open to all current tasks or just the one?
Do whatever brings your Mind to peace.
You'll soon find out what is best.
If I'm honest 90% of what I think isn't really productive or necessary, but maybe your percentage is higher.
Ok, let's address the points individually to underscore my previous comment.
No. Why is washing dishes not deserving of your concentration? When you wash a pan, and you permit your thoughts to stray to other matters, it's often the case that the pan still bears marks. You notice this, and re-wash the pan. It would have been better if you had just focused on doing the job properly in the first place...
NO! for goodness ' sake, be Mindful first foremost and only, of being in control of a killing machine! Concentrate on what you are doing, and where you are going! No politician will thank you for your vote if you end up wrapped round a lamp-post because you swerved to avoid that child you didn't see!
Buy a new broom. It sweeps clean. Just do what you can with the tools that you have at the moment...
Why? Why not do that, when you are sat in your chair, having accomplished all your tasks Mindfully?
All your above examples required focused attention, concentration and being in the present moment, to do well.
All the thought processes you described were designed to take your mind elsewhere - anywhere but with what you were actually engaged in.
That's not good use of your time. That is creating unnecessary diversion and ultimate confusion. It also means that neither task is accomplished to its ideal level.
There IS no trying. While you do it, the task IS important. Once it is done, it is of no consequence.
Mindfulness is being fully aware of being in the moment, while you exist in that moment. That awareness alone, is all-consuming.
Thank you federica, that certainly helps me to better define your position.
The dishes will be clean enough to accomplish the real purpose of the task without much concentration. The real purpose of washing dishes is not to make them spotless. What is ones attachment to clean dishes? Does one need clean dishes in order to tackle their stress of a messy home and dish? Or is cleanliness a method of preserving health and hygiene?
I will not likely get sick from using the dishes although the have a spot on them and nor will they mold or attract critters. I may need to provide more attention and care to the process to bring greater comfort to guests once in a while...
Why do you exempt sitting from the process of mindfulness? Anyways, I do think while sitting.
I hate to tell you, but actually, that's exactly the purpose of washing dishes. Having worked in an environment where health and safety were of paramount importance, there's absolutely no room for tolerance of dishes that are NOT spotless.
You would not go to a restaurant and be happy with a dish that still bore the remnants of the last diner's meal, now, would you?
And if you don't mind eating food off a dish that you yourself have previously been careless in cleaning, then that's your funeral.... and it very well might be!
That's the whole point: if using 'washing dishes' as a meditative practice, your focus is entirely on washing the dishes and completing the task as well as you can WITHOUT attachment.
The attachment is to the task, while you accomplish the task. After the task is accomplished, you release that attachment.
AFTER. not 'during'.
The first is your own habit.
The second should certainly be of concern.
Many cases of reported mild food poisoning occur due to poor treatment of food and hygiene in the domestic environment.
"Most people assume that food poisoning comes from restaurants, cafes and fast food outlets, but according to the FSA, you're just as likely to get ill from food prepared at home."
Incorrect.
You should demonstrate just as much care, Loving Kindness and Compassion for yourself, as you do for others. The first precept - to not harm sentient beings - includes, primarily, yourself....
Like I said, I suspect you probably over-think things.
You have admitted the possibility yourself and this thread is further evidence....
Indeed.
Dishes are deserving of metta too (We Mahayanists are potential Mettayanists) ...
@SpinyNorman is lucky to have only 90% useless thoughts. Of course we have it tough. Thoughts are like speaking about Noble Silence. @federica by a great show of disciplined practice recently managed to tape her mouth shut. The immense effort for a semi Italian should not be underestimated ... Inspiration by example
Mind tape is even harder to implement ... being in the moment is half a tape ... skilful means ...
(just to prove it wasn't a fluke!)
The thread title sounds like the beginning of a bad joke...
....walk into a bar and......
...The Barman says, "What the heck are two guys like you doing with a lady?"
The older monk replies, 'Oh good grief, that is sooooo 'yesterday'..!"
The younger Monk declares, "You have a good point my man, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it!"
Ok, now that's over.....
:
Back to topic!
I don't think it means don't consider the past, I think it means don't brood over the past. There's a big difference between considering and brooding!
Lao Tzu said:
@federica
The dishes, overthinking things, etc...
For me it is a matter of probability, and reward vs cost.
My 0 times of getting food poisoning from it shows a low probability. My good immune system also represents a low cost. While the many hours I have utilized to their full 'thought' potential in my projects has shown to be fruitful. If I were cleaning dishes at a hospital the 'cost' would be too great due to the many compromised immune systems residing the hospital, nor are my gains in my project worth increasing the risk factor for other human beings.
I see my overthinking to be a side effect of mental exploration. I am satisfied with the cost of getting the wrong answer or stepping over the answer once in a while because I gain so much just from the process of looking.
Yes, but is it conducive to positive and fruitful practice?
Does it advance your progress on the Path, as fast as, maybe, leaving such distractions behind, might.....?
Thoughts are not my own. I cannot force then to the task at hand or to do anything. I only hold onto them as much as needed to move on to the next thought. Not hold onto them at all or hold onto them unwilling to let go. -at least this is what I thought I had learned thus far
If this is true, where do you see me? How do I know the path if I have never been there? If I have been there, how do I recognize it as the path you speak about?
Then if they're not yours, whose are they?
Of course they're yours.
Whose else could they possibly be?
I fear you are quite mistaken on some factors, friend....
You're over-thinking it again....
Thoughts are yours.
They simply fail to define who you are.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.101.than.html
What that means is to not be attached to it, not that it doesn't belong to you, or is not generated by you!
Like I said, you are mistaken on some factors....
He says, let go, let go, let go.
That means to not cling to opinions, views or thoughts obsessively, but to let them arise, ponder them, evaluate them, and release them. Detach.
Not that they're not yours at all....
Here I thought I found something I could relate to... There was another post somewhere on emotions regarding, emotions not being yours. These things are my body's but from afar I can observe them and see them clearly. I believe you made contribution to this idea.
I can understand now that you mean don't be attached to these things.
They are your product, but you are not them.
Emotions do not define who you are.
Your body does not define 'who' you are.
Your name does not define who you are.
Your profession does not define who you are.
These are projections of your mind.
They are yours to mould, control and channel.
It is up to you to use them wisely, appropriately, skilfully.
But though they are transitory, while you have them, you are still responsible for them.
There is no separation, no 'from afar'.
This is about as 'up close and personal' as it gets.
And rightly so.
I'm referring to the Eightfold Path. We're all at different stations...places...Panoramic view... Watering holes... Some are ahead, some behind, some just stepping out, others, well on the way. It is not for me to either identify them, or speculate where any of us are. But no matter where anyone is along the route, we're all in this together, to help one another and to make the trip enjoyable.it's not punishing ; it's not meant to be oppressive, impossible, convoluted... It's actually remarkably simple.
Just Let Go, and Be.
(PS: 'simple' doesn't necessarily mean 'Easy'...)
I would say we are not: body, feeling (judge: good, bad, and neutral), perception (hot, cold, tall, short), mental formations, and not consciousness. That is the Shravaka understanding of emptiness.
But we are: openness, clarity, and sensitivity. Those qualities are always there. Another way to look at it is we are all five Buddha qualities: wanting to know, wanting 'it all', wanting to feel, wanting to do, and wanting to be. Those five Buddha qualities are always there if it is a sentient being.
As far as using thought to solve problems that is fine but it is usually a way of 'getting better within samsara'. Whereas mindfulness might be cultivating a mind that can go beyond samsara. I think you need to find a balance between both. Sometimes you have to solve problems and sometimes you have the opportunity to cultivate mindfulness and so forth.
This reminds me of something I wrote elsewhere not long ago.
Anyways, responsibility is never absolute because control is never absolute. I don't know it is your intention to convey that or if you just are used to writing or talking about responsibility in such a fashion.
Past or future? Totally wrong tree.
Two words for ya.
Dependent and Origination.
See you on the otherside!
Cowabongaaaaaa!
/Victor
Control of everything around you and outside of yourself, is not possible.
Absolute control of everything within you that is Mind-wrought, is possible.
Even when enduring physical trials, pain my be mandatory, but suffering is optional. As they say.
No controller.
And in direct experience there is no outside or inside. All appears within the 6 senses. You really can't experience ANYTHING outside of yourself.
It's all just an idea that there is a controller. Biggest illusion life has ever played. Duality only exists if you believe there is a controller "in here" and a world "out there"
Speak for yourself....
I don't entirely buy into that ideology.
I might one day, but right now, I'm nowhere near accepting that...
As often happens, a thread diverges from the original direction returns and diverges again, but is interesting, non-the-less.
For brevity, I won't discuss the "Illusion" or "Delusion" thinking.
However two items:
We remember the past, plan for the future and live in the present.
While we may perceive a separation between the self (the inner world or the "in here") and the environment ("out there"), they are two but not two. There is no division, no real separation of self and environment. The self is like a wave on the ocean, emerging from and melding back into the boundless sea of life. While it may appear to be separate from the ocean, the wave is in reality a part of the very ocean from which it rises and to which it returns.
_...You must first give yourself permission to be happy...__
The most ingrained personal belief we've ever had is who we "think" we are. The I, Me, myself thoughts.
What happened for me was I was puzzled as why I couldn't control breath or heart if I was the body. All I thought I could control was limbs, eyes, conscious breathing etc. didn't make any sense?
Then I realised I couldn't control all my thoughts, only some? Why is that? I can't even stop thoughts!
I know realise I've been wrong my whole life, who I think of as myself doesn't exist other than thoughts. Thoughts happen with no controller and the scary thing is that I can see now that movements and choices are the same. Choice happens, then I thought says that was me. All it ever was, was a thought.
Life is exactly the same as it ever was, except nobody running the show. The I thought is still strong as habit but it gets weaker.
Federica when you are ready, you just need to look. No beliefs, no books, no meditation.
It's that simple it's scary. Everybody believes they are a person living life but when inquired into with conscious awareness. No self anywhere. Just empty thoughts.
With metta
Chris