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May as well give up?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
@Earthninja;
You think science has proven there is no self?
You should really look into things before you accept them as truth.
Come on now. You say it isn't a belief and insist it is true while at the same time say you've experienced enough to know they might be onto something.
If you weren't so adamant about this belief being the truth I wouldn't even be on your case.
You're the one that sent him to these shysters.
Like really... There is no work we can do that will allow us to attain enlightenment but hey, let our specialized guide show you how it's done.
That's work, people! Lmao!
Are you also a guide there?
If not, why?
Is that where you got the idea you were enlightened a couple years back?
Do you still claim to be enlightened?
This would be a total joke if the implications didn't lead to more confusion which is evident by this thread.
Your thinking I believe is you trying to make sense of everything and trying to make it fit with your beliefs. Perhaps you read something on this forum that knocked you and made you question your whole belief tree because you can't make it fit. Meditation teaches us to see thoughts as thoughts, when we are aware of this your thoughts lose momentum, they stop building. Do you see what I mean. Do you see how your confusion is a repercussion of attachment to thought?
Why shouldn't someone question their beliefs? I think this is healthy right?
The reason you have to meditate to be aware of thoughts is because you can't control your thoughts but you try to. You have to meditate because awareness won't just simply observe what you tell it to.
The reason is the one who is trying to control even awareness is what?
If you look into fundamentally who you are you will find what you are not.
I read a great quote today that reminded me of this.
"Consciousness has no beliefs or religion"
I fails again ...
Not in the sense you mean. Here is my complete interaction with this group.
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1837
LOL. Why should I be?
No. Enlightenment is not an idea. I was enlightened more than two years ago. Some things do not change in essence just in expression.
@lobster;
You're just as qualified as anyone to con someone into thinking they have no control over their thoughts.
All those cushion icons... But meditation does no good?
You can honestly tell us that meditation is useless for awakening?
Perhaps it's time to go back to the cushion?
Enlightenment is not an idea, I agree. You being enlightened is though.
Blimey, that is surreal! Did your guides help you?
There are no guides. Only thoughts pretending to be guides.
LOL it was fun for sure. Nope not 'helpful' but then I had read and seen the system, knew its potential use and limitations. The process is all that happened. Clarity may have come out of the experience and an increased awareness, which is why I went through the search for non-I, perhaps not in the way they expected ... ah well we [non self] cructaceans are nothing but trouble ...
@lobster and @Earthninja;
I may have gotten a bit harsh and I hope you know I do value your insights and contributions here.
I say what I do because I care and the reason I may get a bit riled up about this stuff is because I genuinely think the very subtle but fundamental misunderstanding of emptiness is dangerous to the psyche. That is the mistaking of emptiness for nothingness or being able to say no-self when you really mean not-self and not see the fundamental distinction or allow it to go unseen.
Including the teachings of the Two Truths should be taught along with any and all emptiness teachings if we don't want to utterly confuse the newcomer, imho.
The lack of an inherent or abiding self does not mean we are only thoughts pretending to exist and that we have no control over our thoughts. This is a harmful idea if really clung to, I think.
This is especially true if meditation is discouraged
I can see things pretending not to exist or even pretending to be born and die but it is hard to trick the non-existent into existence unless they actually exist in the first place to be tricked.
Could you imagine if a sutta was about a monk asking Buddha if there is a subjective self?
Even Buddha might be tempted to him them with a stick.
@Earthninja, I only ask you not to take their word that this is truth until you have experienced what it is to attain enlightenment, whatever that word means for you.
@lobster, I hope you also know that I am not implying you did not have an awakening but in your own posts you have said there are times when you are not being mindful.
Am I being too wikid for the wikid?
I'll leave you guys alone now (at least on this thread, haha) and hold no animosity towards either of you.
In fact the very opposite is true.
Indeed.
Meditation is rightly encouraged by Buddhists and my mentor Mr Cushion and is one of the rocket fuel practices and developments uniquely honed in Dharma. I would always encourage people to practice meditation unless they have severe mental health or other issues where meditation might destabilise them further. For example clinically depressed people often respond better to other treatment, support and exercise.
No worries
Being mindful is a practice. A choice. A bit like meditation. We can increase in the 'depth' of our meditation or the simplification if you will. In a similar way it is possible to be more proactively mindful. That is why the 'non-self realisation' was already present for me when I engaged with liberation unmuzzled. They did not seem to pick up on this for quite a while.
You are far from wikid. You have a honed, questioning nature. That as far as I know is a good thing. You will notice how kind and determined to help the unleashed guys are. That shows their compassion and integrity. They did good.
Sometimes we wikid crustys go just a little beyond ... Iz our nature
If anyone here was enlightened, I'd never need to speak to them as a Moderator.... would I?
Wikid!
Likewise my friend
I really do mean no self, zip, nothing, nada. Some teachings say we are actually the space in which even I AM(witness) is perceived. Other teachings point to this being co dependant on the subject. Both disappear.
The reason I say no self, is because any hand hold for the ego, the sense of self will cling to it so it can continue being. Some people are happy with being "I am everything" some will go deeper.
It's like layers of an onion, really the teachings help but only at the start. IMHO.
The belief you are a separate entity who controls life is the cause of all suffering. There is nothing to defend if the ego doesn't exist. It's only when you believe you are the body/mind complex is there the "other" or separation from the environment.
It is the most liberating thing when you stop trying to control thoughts, you just watch them rather than being the puppet master.
It is discouraged if you do it for enlightenment. Otherwise it isn't, do whatever hobby resonates. !
It's purely conditioning, our story was told to us so many times we learned to believe it. It never existed as anything more than a story. Life always lived itself. Words create ghosts. "The wind blows" the wind doesn't blow! The wind and the blowing are the same thing!
"I am angry!" There is no you that is angry. Just sensations/feeling.
You only exist in thought.
Buddha probably wrote it this way so people actually listen to him. If he wrote no self everybody would run away. Hence the reaction I got here. Lol.
Dude I don't, it's only because I've experienced no self in clear observation do I know they are onto something. You all argue that you can control thoughts. I know this to be not true. Experientially. Do I listen to the ones who control thoughts or follow the group that has seen through this?
No disrespect , I know how this all sounds. I won't make the mistake of bringing this up on a buddhist forum again unless someone else starts it
Likewise bud!
I can assure you meditation is very useful on a variety of levels. I recommend its daily use. Is it the only way? No. Is it the most important way in dharma? Yes. Do I practice daily? Yes.
Does @Earthninja exist? Yes. Is he enlightened? No. Can I tell? Yes. Am I wikid? Yes. [lobster hangs his non-head in shame]
Anything unclear?
Really, I just wanted him to hear it from you as he is still stuck on pretending he has no ego and cannot control his thoughts.
But I said I'd leave the thread and I feel I've said all I can say on this matter.
@lobster you are a loveable rogue !
You know I'm not enlightened? What is enlightenment? I hope you can answer this.
@ourself thanks for the healthy debate mate. I enjoyed talking to you. You gave me a chance to express myself. Kind regards
if you really mean no-self, zip nada, then you really do misunderstand the essence of the concept and are veering towards nihilism.
This discussion, therefore is really going nowhere, and is just circulating the drain.
Thanks to all, but I honestly think we're done here.
If anyone can come up with a sound and logical reason as to why the thread should definitely be re-opened, let me know via pm.