May as well give up?
Earthninja
WandererWest Australia Veteran
Namaste Sangha
A little while back I somehow got added to a secret group of people who share poetry about awakening and life really.
I believe a few of the members are fully awakened. The problem with all this is they are adamant on one thing.
That enlightenment is completely UNCAUSED. That the shift has to happen in the brain and there is absolutely nothing a "person" can or cannot do to reach it.
They say spiritual practice or seeking is not a precursor but simply another disease of the mind.
The confused illusory mind tries to see through it's own illusion but there is nothing it can do.
They often jest with some of the other members who say enlightenment is a refining or this or that.
They reply that spiritual practice is just another symptom of the disease, the shift occurs in the brain and there's nothing we can do. "Yer fucked" meditation is simply a bandaid over a gaping wound.
I guess that's why some people with absolutely no spiritual background at all, suddenly wake up out of a drunken stupor in a ditch and they are in oneness.
Naw whelp I may as well throw all my books away.
Comments
That enlightenment is completely UNCAUSED? So how did they get there, with out any effort, cause and effect? Just Bang?
Shift in the brain? How did that happen?
Nothing we can do? How do they know?
They have all the answers to the most difficult questions
so I dont think you should compare yourself with them, and feel even more "hopeless".
hmm..I would be open to all options.. In my opinion, the worst case scenario of sincere long term dharma practice is greater peace and awareness throughout life. It appears that introspection, and clarity through meditative experience haven't (yet?) manifested in any "disease"-like way for me. FYI I try to keep humor, doubt, and brutal honesty around in my practice...
but I guess no one can truly know another's internal experience, and one could conclude that my practice is a byproduct of a disease of the mind... & that's a perfectly fair belief!
Would practice (with clear, non-deceptive benefit) truly not be worth the effort if enlightenment was random?
btw, very interesting post!
LOL, give up what?
Life is unfair.
The awake sleep deep in opening.
The open close the distance
between nothing and nothing more
What a bunch of delightful twats, to put it politely.
What they say may well be true. In great part it is. I am sure they are lovely people. What they do about being awake is up to them. As for books, poetry, being awake - what of it?
How deep is such insight? More importantly what is there to give up?
Why don't you share some of their 'enlightened' poetry? I would be delighted to consider its causation ...
Too wikid? Too bad! Thanks for sharing.
deleted... too snarky on my part.
They say all the effort was perpetuating the dream. Nobody knows the cause. The brain sees through it's illusion.
As above
I don't know, they just say all striving, doing, not doing is all perpetuating the illusion. They are just adamant.
I never joined them, someone added me for some reason. It's not a seekers page, they share poetry about awakening with each other.
Sometimes somebody asks about what to do about awakening and they always reply, there is nothing you can do. It's UNCAUSED. Tears*
@EvenThird my sentiments exactly. They also said nothing they say can wake someone up. All they can do is say I love you.
They say you can't help but try and see through the pain of separation. I like what you wrote.
I feel the same way.
@lobster Sure but I better ask permission to share their poetry. Well some post poetry. Some post pretty much what I wrote above.
They are a lovely group, I guess it's a place where they can share and actually have people understand them.
I only understand half of what they are on about.
I think if you barely know them, its difficult to say if they are awake or not, and how they really are in real life?
Its better to follow or take advises from a teacher you really trust and know, if not you can get very easy confused, because there are many ways and paths out there.
I don't mean to ruffle anybodies feathers, i just felt to share because it completely goes against the grain but I think it wise to be open to the possibility.
@Namada you could never know. The reason I consider what they say is that they share with each other and those who ask. They don't go out telling people anything.
And they are not trying to sell anything to anyone.
Where as most teachers do.
Why?
They spammed you without permission.
You choose to mention them and are capable of making your own decisions ... or maybe you like being selected as being in a secret club? Tee hee.
You can I am sure unsubscribe if you wish ...
@Earthninja No problem for me, its interesting to hear diffrent stories, and from diffrent angels, but its also good to ask some questions
It reminds me little bit about eckhart tolle, He also became suddenly awake, but just after a lot of suffering.
and It would be nice to read one or two of their poems
@lobster it's not that I enjoyed being selected, I like reading and seeing what they share because it goes against what most of the books and gurus say. And probably what you say because of how defensive your posts are
LOL when you are permitted, we will find why defences and secrecy is there for a reason ... I find no fault in them or you ...
@Earthninja
I tend to discern the worth of any practice by the wake it leaves behind.
I've seen too many spiritual words co opted to justify why another common expression of tribalism is not actually the separation of self from others that it appears to be.
I'd recommend watching for evidence of empathy, sympathy, compassion, love, tenderness, benevolence and wisdom, offered to all, or it's absence, before calling anyone fully awakened, or not.
@how I agree but again how do you know these are traits of an enlightened person?
They seem as different as you and I.
Plus sharing your wisdom doesn't help if nobody wants to hear it.
Have you ever tried to share with people about Buddhism?
I can imagine trying to share awakening with people would be worse.
Rather just be yourself and if people ask questions then great.
This is why we have this forum? I'm sure that's why they have theirs.
Ohh, let us be the judge of that.
@Earthninja
:
So they say enlightenment is just movement confined to the brain-
and those of us who meditate must all be insane
But some effort must first be made, in order to know-
what enlightenment is and how to go with the flow
However to just become enlightened without a cushion to sit
me thinks those so-called enlightened poets are just full of shit
But alas it must be said that karma and the brain plays a big part-
neurons must be fired (wholesome karmic action) to develop the Bodhi heart
But as usual I could well be wrong
Metta
is it a forum or what? The thing is, there are a million and one books and youtubes and websites thousands of years old (well not the youtubes or websites), about enlightenment. How do they justify their belief that it cannot be caused but just happens out of the blue? I'd love to hear their answer to that. Just use your own common sense if you have any.
@silver of all these videos, paths, ways etc. how many have actually woken up fully?
If there was a set way don't you think someone would patent it?
Alan Watts says the same thing as these guys. He says meditation or spiritual practice is like drinking water from your rectum or pushing a peanut up a mountain with your nose.
Yes it is extraordinary but has nothing to do with enlightenment.
Honestly guys, how many people spend years and years and years searching or practicing?
They may be no closer to enlightenment or even further away from it because they believe they are on there way. Not realising they are already there.
I'm not saying believe this, I just felt to share because it's incredible stuff and I like you guys
Positing an uncaused effect seems fairly illogical. I can see that perhaps striving could be a hindrance and that sometimes insight comes with no effort but to call it uncaused seems hasty to say the least.
Ah, and there it is. Meditation rebels.
That could be the sink or swim reflex. When we hit rock bottom there's nowhere to go but recovery or into the ground.
Well, if you've already read them you're pretty much screwed.
well, that's the thing! Who is around to judge whether or not someone has fully awakened (what does that mean, anyhooo) - who is qualified - there is no such animal as a properly qualified judge to this stuff. Those who are interested can do their searches, read, the whole 9 yards. It's the journey not the destination - not an original by @silver, incidentally - (haha). I'm not sure if you have a question or are complaining or what, to be honest.
It's not really a question or a complaint. Just bringing up something that I found incredible, I wanted to share to see how you all feel at the chance that awakening is not caused by the person. Just life somehow awakening to itself.
Because there's all these practices out there, people take them so seriously. The 8fold path, the refuges, Vipassana, anapannasati, Tantra, mantra...
What if all this is just pushing peanuts up mountains?
It's not wrong, and hey it makes us feel good. But what if it doesn't have anything to do with awakening?
That's all I'm doing is playing around with the idea.
"When the student is ready the teacher will appear" What form does this teacher have to take ?
@Shoshin I always get these koans wrong!
Ummm "Mu!" ? Hahah
If enlightenment is uncaused then it doesn't really matter what we do, enlightenment could strike at any moment. Most others who claim some sort of enlightenment profess some sort of path. So I think the most sensible course of action if one desires spiritual awakening, that would give you the best odds, is to follow a path of practice.
I don't know if it will help you or not, but I'm presently reading a book - The Iron Cow of Zen, and it's helping me understand some things about awakening, enlightenment, zen and stuff, and I feel it's helped me take some nice strides in further understanding it all. In short, I think it's an amazing book. (author, Albert Low)
@Earthninja
So it's enlightenment or nothing?
Enlightenment may not just be due to our courage, determination or effort,
as
enlightenment might also not just be due to fortuitous past karma,
but
I think that the grace that unfolds from a practice that moves one from selfishness towards selflessness is both self evident, causal and of benefit to all.
@Earthninja ...It was not meant to be a koan, (I'm not that enlightened clever)
I was just thinking out loud "What form does a teacher have to take ?" Life itself is as good a teacher as any 
@person that's a fair comment. May as well do what we love right. We can't help but follow the path.
@how sure why not
, mother Teresa, Ghandi, Jesus, Buddha etc. practice compassion and love is definitely self evident.
@Shoshin haha I know
it would be a good koan. Life is our only teacher. It just manifests differently.
they are attached to emptiness? a path is not a path.
I think that a big question for you is if the 8 fold path a way of practicing in the path to enlightenment?
From my standpoint having read the Jewel Ornament of Liberation I believe that we do need conditional qualities to practice in addition to the unconditioned quality (buddha nature). The JoL lists all the qualities needed to practice such as being able to read and practice and existing in a world where the dharma is public. If I don't study and meditate but rather say I am too tired or want to drink or whatever then I won't have the teachings and the wisdom.
The price of wisdom is high. It is only available to those able to use it and surprisingly it can be transmitted without the need for words. Sharing something you have (like pseudo wisdom) is indicative of knowledge or experience, it has little to do with awakening. Mere words can be transferred by a book or a parrot. That is why there is no 'secret' doctrine/manual or poem. The opening and circumstances denotes the means and nature of potential transmission. The likely conditions for Enlightenment are encouraged by the wise - strange but true.
To what purpose? In different contexts, different sharing.
Exactly so. Imagination.
Enlightenment is transferred despite the format - not through it. Even those asleep know that deep down ...
Make sure you are permitted the better half ...
... And now back to the closed drama dharma of the wordless secret singers ...
I might have been a little too hasty in writing off all those who claim to be enlightened.... It might be a good idea if I see every person I meet as an enlightened being, even the ones who might give me the finger "wtf" ...after all.... they could just be pointing to the moon
I feel a bit less unenlightened when I practice, so I'm reluctant to give it up.
"pointing to the moon"
head like a hole. black as your soul. I'd rather die than give you control.
x3 etc etc etc
Nine Inch Nails
"Pointing to the moon" does often sound like an awful cliche though.
Maybe I'm just not in the right mood to interpret what I'm reading, but I'm surprised that one of us has encountered a peculiar and inscrutable oddity, presented it to the group as an interesting find, but is received with more hostility than I'd have expected.
I guess nobody likes to be told they are wasting their time.
Hi, @Earthninja .
I want to share my point of view on this subject IF I were added to the group you are talking about.
If I were on that group, I would certainly think the following things.
They seem to me to be some sort of Dharma Bums, the type of 'boddhisatvas' on Jack Kerouac's liking. If they are enlightened, why do they feel the need to talk about it? Why do they feel the need to write poetry and jest about those who haven't reached their level of enlightenment? Isn't this just a trap of the ego?
But maybe they are enlightened, I for one am not and enlightenment isn't the thing I am striving for. Just like the idea of Heaven, it's something that's too far away for me to reach. Just an ideal, something like a compass that shows you the direction you should be heading.
And maybe my ego is telling me all these things, afraid to give up on the things it considers to be true.
Poets are hip,
Poets are groovy,
But reading their stuff
Makes me feel woozy....
They write about it to each other, I guess a kinsman-ship? If one of them wrote this stuff on here can you see how everybody else would react? Especially devoted dharma practitioners. I think they just like being able to talk to people who mirror their understanding rather than defend themselves to others.
They don't jest with people in a mean way. I think it comes from empathy due to have gone through the whole seeking rigmarole for some.
I'm with you on this, but I can see that no situation will ever satisfy "me" it's seeing this that helps let go.
I think we all have this within us, if someone questions our strongest beliefs. Resistances come up. But why? Why are we do defensive about our beliefs? We are on the way to grave sure as an arrow. Yet we cling to this existence like we are going to live for ever
It very much feels like a big game. Thank you for your sincere reply
Like @SpinyNorman said, we don't like to hear things that go against our beliefs. We've all been there.
Two questions that comes to mind are "What will you do instead of meditation?" and "How do these people define meditation?"
The answers to those could be quite telling. I guess I have one more, dang it.
If the practice of being mindful and more aware is useless in the cause of awakening, what use are poems?
[lobster faints]
... and now back to the hip, groovy, woozy stuff ...
That sounds completely nonsensical. Everything that happens has a cause. If it didn't, it wouldn't happen!
Meditate if you want, do whatever else is your calling. Not sure how they define meditation. I'm sure it's the same as ours.
Meditation is like any other hobby for bettering the self. Don't know ?
The poems are not to wake people up, they are to try and describe what is indescribable. I guess it's just for amusement. They don't do it for a purpose.
Why do people paint? It's the same thing.
This is a little reminiscent of "grace" in Christianity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_(Christianity)
@SpinyNorman I like that term, it does remind me of that.
Tanka poems, tea rituals, calligraphy. Just some fragmented thoughts of mine.
I understand what you're saying. Thank you for posting this discussion here; I think it's great to question such things.
We humans are very afraid of change, of new things that question what we've learned so far. We think something on the lines of "we don't want to start anew, why would we do that when whatever we have till now just works?" And for me this is a very unhealthy attitude, one that leads to stagnation of every kind: spiritual, cultural, emotional etc.
I am very curious what you will find out, and hopefully you'll share more over here.