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May as well give up?
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Comments
I disagree. My opinion on this has nothing to do with my fear of change or 'different' things. I'm a chick that wears a Mohawk...different I can deal with.
It's the secret aspect....and that someone (you or them) claims enlightenment. And the 'instant' part. Don't take it so personal, @Eathninja. If you like them, hang out. You choose your friends....we don't.
FWIW...all such claims are put under the heat lamp in these parts. For good reasons, I think.
You brought it here, right? Maybe your expectations of what we were going to say wasn't met. Sorry about that. We're still cool
I'm not taking anything personal? It's like you are imputing something that isn't there.
I choose my friends but "we" don't? Not sure what you mean by this,
Sure, why not? I expected from an international forum of strangers lol.
Again you say we? From what I can gather there are a multitude of replies from many angles. What are you sorry about?
I had no expectation of what "we" were going to say
Gotcha. I must have mis-understood what/how you said it. Easy to do in this setting
Go on...don't mind me .....
Yes, but this isn't about me, it's about a rather fantastical claim. That right effort is useless. You must have known this notion would be rightly challenged on such a forum as this.
I don't even know if ours is the same as ours.
See, that's not how I define meditation.
You are missing the point to the question. I didn't ask why people write poems. I sometimes write poems. I ask that if there was no use in meditation (a Band-Aid on a gaping wound) what use is poetry?
Just another Band-Aid in the guise of a hobby?
My favorite poem is somebody absolutely begging us to wake up and I am sure many painters paint for a purpose even if that purpose is in the painting.
I asked you to look deeply into the questions but that's ok.
Sure, it's important to keep an open mind, but I haven't found anything else that works for me in the way that Buddhism does. Also with most of the other spiritual paths I've looked at there is a requirement to take on a set of beliefs, whereas Buddhism can be practised with a minimal belief set.
There's also that saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
I didn't mean you personally. I meant anybody
I'm sure it would of been challenged, and I'm not defending it. I'm just putting something across I found really incredible. It makes sense to me but I'm not trying to sell the idea to anybody.
Why does poetry have to have a use? I'm not using the poetry and meditation in the same reference. The point is there is no use.
I hope you get what I'm trying to say.
@Earthninja
"a mountain or a molehill?"
Take enlightenment, one of the most ethereally disputable terms ever placed on a Buddhist pedestal.
Squeeze that through a secretive group of strangers who only communicate via the internet to you.
Further dilute it as a third party re-telling to NB
and it's still really not much more than a molehill about your own ideas of enlightenment.
But still .......it's also a mountain when any posting causes enough molehills to gather together to question what enlightenment means for them.
Sometimes the questioning itself is the best answer.
Poetry doesn't have to have a use it just does. Same goes for other art. Even as amusement it must serve its purpose or why bother?
If they are horrible then at the very least we can use it as kindling.
If they are enlightening then we can gain perspective.
We could even say that enlightenment itself is useless but then, use is rather subjective just as is meaning.
Meditation is the practice of seeing directly and being aware of what is going on. Whether we are sitting, washing dishes or writing poetry.
When somebody says that meditation won't help I like to know what they think meditation is because there is the possibility they haven't even tried.
Not trying to be a jerk or anything. I am skeptical by nature.
It was never my idea, it was learnt. So I shared.
Everybody will do with it as they do. Thank you
That's cool, I'm sure many have been in the same situation we are
some definitely have meditated. I've seen pics of a guy at satsang.
Meditation had uses but not apparently in waking up.
Metta
I dunno. Maybe it's my Therevadan leanings, but the Buddha seemed to talk about the need to exert oneself to progress along the way. Bhante Gunaratana talks about the need to exerrt effort in spiritual practice in the Latest newsletter from his forest monastery. Let me get the link.
It's gone into the garbage bin
Here is the link to the piece on the importance of effort in spiritual practice by Bhante Gunaratana as a counterpoint to what this secret group seems to be saying. It's in the 'Ask Bhante G' feature:
http://bhavanasociety.org/newsletters/issue/summer_newsletter_2015
You know, the idea that we're not really in control of our personal enlightenment can be liberating. So I wouldn't judge these poets too harshly.
The way I see it is that control is something we need to let go of completely. We are not in control anyway, so no point trying to be.....Trying to gain or have control, in my opinion, only blocks the way...
For me, the way is all about awareness/spirit...
Realising you are not in control is the scariest yet most liberating thing.
life living itself.
And you realise you were never in control from the start. Fear and awe.
Metta
The flipside is thinking you have no amount of control whatsoever because of course, you do.
Without exerting this control in the form of mindfulness it is easy to identify with thoughts as if they are me.
I've known people that have given up all control over their life only to die alone on the street or a ragged tent in the woods.
Not happy people by any means but proud at least.
It is poetic and nebulous and vague - but for the uninitiated what does that really mean? Uninitiated = clueless. And, I am - clueless! Seriously.
Me too! I don't even know what nebulous means!
I'm saying that control is an illusion as well. Once you realise that thoughts are not controllable then the whole thing starts to cascade down. Because "I" is born in thought.
Hence life living itself! And you realise it's always been like this. It's incredible but scary as hell.
Hmm...
@Earthninja;
The thing is, thoughts are controllable once we stop identifying with them. It gets easier the more we can detach from them while watching them arise and pass mindfully.
Eventually those thoughts we wish we didn't have stop coming around for the lack of being fed our identity.
This is largely why meditation is helpful.
I do hope you mean to find out for yourself and not take anyone's word for it. These guys are doing you no favours.
If "I" was born in thought, I could not watch the thoughts come and go but I can.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Why don't you completely stop identifying with them? Why does it get easier to detach? Surely if you had control you could just detach?
The one who doesn't want certain thoughts arise is also a thought. Check it out.
Meditation is training the mind, if we had control of it we wouldn't need to train it. The scary thing is the one who wants to control the mind is also born of mind. That's the realisation.
Likewise with you mate. But you have to be willing to put aside all beliefs. And LOOK. It takes a bit of courage to look but the fear won't harm what doesn't exist. Feels that way though.
Exactly what do you mean by "I" watch thoughts? Is that not itself a thought?
I know where you are coming from because I was there myself. All of this is observable. You don't even need meditation. You just have to look with honesty.
There is no control, heart beats, lungs breath, eyes see.
There is no one doing seeing. There is just seeing.
There is no one watching thoughts. Awareness of thoughts is there. This stuff scares the hell out of people. To realise you don't exist outside of the thought is intense.
It only scares people when they misunderstand @Earthninja. Buddha did not wake up afraid, lmao.
The watcher (or more correctly, the watching) of the thought being just another thought is delusion.
I'm sorry but you have been duped and the only reason I say so is because I believe this doctrine is harmful for the added delusion it can cause.
You are most certainly not your thoughts.
As for your defensiveness, I am sorry but I am speaking from experience. I know very well that meditation helps to overcome the delusion that we are our thoughts and helps to get them under control.
How much have you meditated?
Lets listen to a nice piece of Vivaldi's "The Four Seasons" Zen biology lesson
And I who thought I was the one who did the snarky comments around here...!
My humble opinion? I downright mistrust people who call themselves enlightened.
Even more when they use that pseudo-enlightenment to look down on others.
Don't let the Buddha hear you say that
I am not the most enlightened or enlightening aspect of our existence but I do see harm in believing we are our thoughts and that we don't really exist or have any control.
It reeks of irresponsibility.
May as well give up?
Yes, let go of everything and wake up. The catch is, the person who is dreaming cannot let go until he wakes up. He simply has to keep trying until he does.
Boy, am I glad that the Buddha was wise enough to encourage us dreamers to keep trying until we do.
How do you know the Buddha was not afraid? And I'm not talking about awakening. I'm talking about no self.
When you said, you choose what thoughts you want to come around. I said that was just a thought. The "watching" doesn't decide what thoughts it wants or doesn't want. It just is.
You are entitled to your beliefs mate. Its not about being duped. It's observable. Right now. It's not even a doctrine. Like I said you can loom with honesty and see if you are willing. If you are not then that's fine also.
Not entirely true, you are your thoughts but you are also not them. You can't control then but they manifest in this life uniquely.
I'm not defensive, I'm just responding to you? It doesn't matter whether you believe me or not. I understand why people refuse to believe this. It's easier to not believe it. Or the other option is look with an open mind and see for yourself. But who is willing to question themselves?
You (and me) are the hypothesis that can't stand direct observation.
For a few years, mostly Vipassana and anapannasati. I still do the anapannasati for fun. The added concentration is nice.
Metta
We haz plan!
I distrust myself to be enlightened
The genuinly humble do not on the whole need or require to be labeled. They speak according to the requirements of others, not to verify, belittle or be trusted. Some of the greatest rogues court trustworthyness:
The enlightened from what I know are notoriously ... wait a minute ... who put me on that list ... can not even trust my keyboard ...
@Earthninja, I do indeed put my own thoughts under scrutiny and am not afraid to do so one bit. I have no beliefs. There is only what makes the most sense given the information I have at the time. This can change and it has many times.
What you suggest is nothing I haven't heard nor do I find the idea scary. What I find scary is people thinking they can have no control over their thoughts or actions while acting and convincing others that they are enlightened.
You may not be able to exert any control over your thoughts but that is simply not the case for everybody.
Trust me, I thought meditation was hooey for almost a whole decade.
I mean trust that I thought meditation is hooey, not that it works once the hang is gotten. The only way you will find out is to meditate.
There's your trip-up.
It's not 'no-self'. it's NOT-Self. There's a subtle difference.
No-self implies no alternative. For 'Not-Self' there is also an existent 'Self'.
As you point out here:
You are wrong about not being able to control thoughts.
I can control mine, I'm sad if you sincerely believe you can't control yours.
That's not Buddhism.
That's Zombie.
Your cup is full, and overflowing, @Earthninja.... no more tea will fit.....
You have no beliefs? Everybody has beliefs. The only thing you know to be true is current experience. Everything else is belief. Do you believe the sun will rise tomorrow? All this isbelief is conditioned on us. If you say, "I hear a sound" that is a belief.
The idea isn't scary, it's the experience of no self that can be scary. It's only scary to you because you don't understand. It doesn't change anything except how you perceive the world. You are already not self, you just haven't seen it. That's what's so funny about it.
Exert control and stop your thoughts? Isn't that a hint alone, that maybe the control is an illusion? How can you partially control thoughts.
I gave up on trying to control thoughts once the question who Is trying to control thoughts emerged.
It really does seem like there is somebody controlling life, but it can't be found. Only the body and mind, just doing there thing.
I've really enjoyed expressing to you, you are stoic in your debates. I like it.
@Earthninja;
No, you are mistaken. I do not believe the sun will come up tomorrow. It either will or it won't. I will respond accordingly. My light switch will either work or it won't. No faith involved.
This argument is child's play.
When I hear a sound I don't believe I hear a sound because there is sound. No belief necessary. If it sounds like a bird I will assume it is a bird unless it turns out that it isn't.
I'm on my phone so the quoting won't work as well so I will try to respond to everything.
The experience of no self could not be scary because it is not something we can experience. This is only sense.
I already told you I understand what you are saying perfectly and do not find it scary in even the slightest sense. Even if it were true it would make no difference whatsoever.
Could this fear you speak of be a projection? You obviously find it scary.
I never said you can stop your thoughts. I said you can stop identifying with them. When you no longer identify with them it is easier to use the good ones and let the bad ones go because you are not your thoughts. A negative thought will have less attention each time it comes around until it hardly shows up at all.
You gave up on trying to control your thoughts because you couldn't find the thinker?
No wonder your monkey is running wild.
You won't find a thinker because it isn't a thing. Thoughts do not think any more than nails hammer. Thoughts are nothing more than tools when understood.
I think you must be misusing the word "stoic" as well unless you think this debate is hurting me in any way.
Just killing time, trying to help somebody before confusion hits them like a ton of bricks.
However, the bed is calling so I'll check in again tomorrow.
No, it's not. It's a fact backed by science and biology, transmitted into a verbal communication.
There's a difference between beliefs without any foundation or evidence, and a belief backed by concrete evidence and scientifically proven events. You're clouding the issue.
There you go, mixing terms again. What is it you actually mean? 'no self' or not self'?
To perceive the not-self, you must also have the Self, which perceives. You can't be one or the other. You must be both. And have you actually read up on this self/not-self matter? You seem to be dwelling within some skewed ideas...
In exactly the way you just did. You thought something and wrote it down. That was taking control of your thoughts. Not controling thoughts would be
/lkjf'opj;sdlfj nc.k lkd;lkj:Lksdcnfv,m bvd.SDVjlm;lsdkf
Wouldn't it?
You obviously failed, because verbalising what you are thinking IS 'controlling' your thoughts. In other words your thought has manifested as word. That's what you do with thoughts, when you express them.
You exert a decision upon them. In other words, you decide what to do with them. Hence, you control them...
(their.)
Mind? Doing it's thing? Oh, you mean. 'thinking'? And who do you think has this mind that does the thinking? Oh look, it's your SELF...
There you go, making a decision again based on your perceptive thought....
There's a difference between beliefs without any foundation or evidence, and a belief backed by concrete evidence and scientifically proven events. You're clouding the issue.
"I hear a sound" is not a fact. Where is the separation between hearer and the sound? The belief in a separate hearer is a belief. One we can observe.
To perceive the not-self, you must also have the Self, which perceives. You can't be one or the other. You must be both. And have you actually read up on this self/not-self matter? You seem to be dwelling within some skewed ideas...
I mean "no self" and "not self" as the same thing. I'm bad with grammar as you know. I mean there is no separate entity that lives life etc. yes I've read up on it but I'm not talking about the reading part. It's not an idea.
/lkjf'opj;sdlfj nc.k lkd;lkj:Lksdcnfv,m bvd.SDVjlm;lsdkf
Wouldn't it?
"I" didn't think anything, thoughts arise and decisions are made. That doesn't imply an owner of them. Do you control every muscle individually in every foot fall pattern as you walk? It happens by itself right? Same with thoughts.
You exert a decision upon them. In other words, you decide what to do with them. Hence, you control them...
There isn't anybody deciding what to do with thoughts, that's just an ingrained belief we've carried all our lives. A decision is made, then the thought "I just made a decision arises" claims ownership of the decision. It happens so often we believe it.
Mind? Doing it's thing? Oh, you mean. 'thinking'? And who do you think has this mind that does the thinking? Oh look, it's your SELF...
Why does someone have to have this mind? Or body? Can't they just exist without the need for a self? Where is this self?
Can you find the exact moment a decision is made outside of thought? Or do you know how you decide? It just happens.
I know this stuff is intense and hard to understand, but it's all right here if we look. I must admit it took me awhile to be ok with the idea enough that I would look honestly.
Thank you
Q: How does a Buddha take self portrait pics?
A: With a non-selfie stick
[lobster - here to help]
@ourself
This argument is child's play.
You don't believe the sun will rise tomorrow? That's epic. I'm with you on the light switch haha.
It's the I that hears which is the belief.
I get the same thing! It's hard right. Sometimes it works.
The brain sees through it's own illusion. You can perceive it is an illusion.
You can understand perfectly how to swim but once you jump in the river it's a different ball game.
It's the fear of non existence, it's kind of like dying in a way. The mind thinks it needs an "I" to survive. Hence the fear. All "your" hopes, dreams, fears, likes, dislikes become ownerless. This is why people don't look. You have to give up "yourself" only to realise it was never there.
It seems this way I know, but even the conscious attention that watches thoughts happens by itself. This is why people "practice" mindfulness. You are reconditioning the mind in a new way. But it is still ownerless.
So is yours, you've spent 10 years trying to tame the monkey. I'm sure yours is trained well but it's the same as going to the gym for 10 years.
You won't find a thinker because it doesn't exist. Thoughts don't think themselves true. They pretend they do.
I think I misused it to, I didn't mean hurt you. I like your ummm, determination?
I was pointed this out once, I'm just trying to do the same for others. Most people won't look. Who knows, it might help someone.
Sleep well bud!
No self and not self are NOT the same thing. You need to investigate more and understand better. It's not us not getting this. It's you....
No.
Because there are both involuntary muscles (heart beating, large intestine, peristalsis, eye muscles focusing....) but also voluntary muscles (arms, legs, tongue) and so while your brain controls the activity of your involuntary muscles without your bidding, you can also activate musculature by voluntarily deciding whether to walk, sit, stand, run lie down or move in any way you want.
It's the same with thoughts.
Thoughts CAN arise unbidden, but once manifest, are controllable.
If you believe an existent self does not exist you are very much mistaken.
It';s back to the dropping a brick on your foot, thing, again. You have a foot. And when you drop a brick on it, it hurts. That's fact. And you can argue all you like about having had stuff ingrained. If a lot of people hold this view, then maybe they have a point.
Have you discussed this with a qualified Buddhist teacher or Master? I think you should.
From here.
Simply because you seem to assert that to think is an illusory factor, does not mean you stop thinking.
The Buddha didn't stop thinking, he merely detached from the OUTCOME to the thoughts.
I meant them as the same thing. I didn't mean they are. It's a typo.
It's the same with thoughts.
Thoughts CAN arise unbidden, but once manifest, are controllable.
I know it seems that way, the clue was for me that there were involuntary movements. Why does the heart beat itself if that's me? Then I got pointed out that the conscious awareness and even "voluntary" movements happen of themselves. Thought says otherwise.
It';s back to the dropping a brick on your foot, thing, again. You have a foot. And when you drop a brick on it, it hurts. That's fact. And you can argue all you like about having had stuff ingrained. If a lot of people hold this view, then maybe they have a point.
Have you discussed this with a qualified Buddhist teacher or Master? I think you should.
If you drop a brick on the foot, there is a painful sensation. Doesn't mean anybody owns the foot or the sensation. It's all one process.
I follow an online teacher and have a mentor. They teach this. Direct pointing to what is.
Some people can come to this undrstanding through meditation but only when they realise the meditation is doing them "itself"
I know where you are coming from, I've been there in your exact position. I would of said the same things you are. I don't know why I looked into this stuff, something just lead me down this path.
It makes sense when you drop belief, where do we go when asleep? Why can't I control thoughts ultimately? Why can't I fix attention on an object permanently?
How do I drive home whilst thinking about work?
It's these questions that lead me here. Then someone helped me see through it. I felt like I controlled my legs for example, then I was pointed to try and find a moment anywhere when the decision was made?
It's so obvious once looked at. Goes against what we've told our whole life.
~Jackson Peterson
I would say thoughts are not entirely controllable. I can direct my thought like I can think what my favorite flavor of ice cream is. But if I am depressed 'thinking happy thoughts' might not fix the problem. Right? So it is somewhere in between. I can lift my hand and pick something up with my mind. So that is similar control as to thinking about favorite flavor ice cream with directed thought. But I cannot make myself like or not like some flavor or even ice cream itself.
No offense @Earthninja but if you were already where we are now you would have already seen how it just doesn't work like that and would have let go of this idea by now.
You seem to be parroting somebody elses flawed understanding.
You've been at this for less time than @federica has been on this forum for crying out softly.
I actually toyed with this idea years ago but there is no truth in it as it is based on a misunderstanding.
Plus it just doesn't make a lick of sense. Are you really paying attention to what you're saying here?
You just claimed that something that doesn't exist is pretending that it exists. Do you not see how silly that is?
And you really should quit while you're behind already with this "hurt" nonsense. The only one feeling hurt here is you and you know it.
You are like a dog with a bone but you are headed for a fall. You may not know it yet but on some level I think you do. That is probably the real reason you are scared. Not because you don't exist but because you know that's b.s. and want to convince yourself otherwise.
You know this revelation of yours is meaningless because it simply doesn't change anything.
Think about it... If you answer any question at all, answer this next one.
If there is nobody to exist, so what? It doesn't change anything. The implications are absolutely meaningless and have no consequence on living life differently.
Except that compassion would have to be an ideal expressed by the non-existent instead of simply common sense but you probably didn't think of that.
I'm going to guess you are in your twenties. It is easy to fall into the trap of thinking you have it down in the twenties, I know I did. Twice, I think.
Madness is not enlightenment and I am sorry but what you are saying is indeed delusional.
I don't wish to hurt your feelings but you need to examine these ideas of yours or suffering will only get worse for you and all that hold you responsible for anything.
I couldn't sleep anyways and I won't say any more on this thread but it would do you some good to let go of this fantasy and come back to it when you can be more objective.
@Earthninja what you are expressing isn't Buddhism.
It's Nihilism.
Ok, then. Go into the kitchen, grab yourself a really sharp knife. Then go to your shed, take a wood saw, and then sit, and with the knife, cut all the way round the flesh above your foot, to the ankle bone. Now use the saw, to cut through the bone.
Tell me at which point you realise that you own your foot.
well either you're not following him/her very intently, or s/he's a jerk, because while they're using clever words they're confusing the hell out of you and leading you up the garden path....
No, they're pointing to what they have figured is. They happen to be misguided, and/or wrong. or you have misunderstood....
How can they come to any understanding when they don't own their thoughts, and are not connected to themselves? What, suddenly they aren't when actually they are, and then in an instant they are, when they realise they aren't? What the hell are you actually conveying here, apart from a total mish-mash of incoherent ramblings?
I think the term you seek is 'up the garden path'.... I don't know why you looked into this stuff, but I suggest you quit looking. What is it doing to your family life? How are you dealing with those around you? How are they dealing with you?
We don't go anywhere... Our consciousness drops to a relaxed state...
You can. Some dolt has just managed to convince you that you can't....
That's a different ball-game altogether, so don't bring in complicating factors...
Really? You don't concentrate? That's scary. That's permitting your Mind to wander. That is giving your thoughts permission to control YOU....
They didn't 'help' you at all, if you ask me. Does the fact that you are having disagreements here, not tell you somehting about what you have been 'shown'? That there's a distinct flaw there?
The decision was made the nano-instant before you moved your legs.
The minute someone says 'move your legs' and you do - that's when you controlled your legs.
What you have been told is not all wrong.
Much of what you have been told is fact and truth. What you ARE being told by this on-line internet teacher, should come under serious scrutiny and be re-evaluated because it's crud.
Discussion on Self/Not-self is immaterial and a waste of time.
What matters is Stress, the origin of stress, the elimination of stress, and the way to eliminate stress.
That was the Buddha's main focus and teaching. How to recognise and accept Dukkha and how to transcend it.
That's all his every teaching points to.
Better focus on that than all this esoteric, highfalutin, pseudo-illuminated stuff.
^^^ Go @federica - you tell them no-good brain strainers
Too wikid?
I'm talking from my own experience, that's why I'm still putting it across
So what? I've met Buddhists who have "been at it" for half a century and are no less suffering. Could even be a hindrance to be so set in your ways right? No disrespect intended.
You have to look at it honestly. If you have this preconceived idea or expectations you won't see clearly.
It doesn't make sense to your objectifying mind. It makes sense once when you really go into it.
Thoughts exist, the owner of thoughts doesn't. Thoughts create the illusion of the owner. Yes it is silly once you see it!
Why would I feel hurt ? Please don't tell me how I'm feeling lol. You don't even know me.
You know that die before we die saying? It's like that. That is scary. You can't convince yourself anything when merely observing reality. It's not thought! That's why I know it's not bs.
It changes how you perceive the world. No sufferer, no self means no other. No separation. Life just living itself. Harsh words don't have a landing place.
But don't get me wrong, the conditioning is still strong here. But it's loosening now
Compassion arises spontaneously. Like anger or frustration. If someone feels to be compassionate. That's great!
I don't think I have it down. Not sure where it leads. It's just the beginning really. Ive had experiences before but I'm not hasty in saying this is it! This really is just the beginning.
According to the objectifying mind. It is so conditioned to see the world a certain way. And when it itself is questioned resistance comes up.
Thank you for your concern mate
. You are not hurting my feelings what so ever. I can understand where you are coming from. You'll be surprised how much you suffer less when there is no sufferer... 
Thanks for your feedback, it's interesting to put this stuff to the other Buddhists
You can't be any more objective then just looking. The truth is in plain sight.
Cheers for the talk! Metta
@federica
Tell me at which point you realise that you own your foot.
That's ridiculous. Now you are referring to nihilism. The body and mind exist. You don't have to own your foot for there to be an experience of pain. There can still be emotions, feelings, fears but no owner or experiencer.
Try and drive home without any thought. You can't do it. Thoughts don't control anything, it's the belief in them that gives them power. That's the link.
No, not at all. Because a lot of the questions you guys have thrown at me are things I've considered already. It's quite refreshing to see them again and revisit.
Just because people don't agree doesn't mean there's a flaw.
What matters is Stress, the origin of stress, the elimination of stress, and the way to eliminate stress.
That was the Buddha's main focus and teaching. How to recognise and accept Dukkha and how to transcend it.
That's all his every teaching points to.
Better focus on that than all this esoteric, highfalutin, pseudo-illuminated stuff.
This is Buddhas teaching. If there is no sufferer then that is the end of suffering.
Life just living itself. No one who dies because we were never born. "The story" was born. And that's all it is.
For me Anatta means non self, there is no self. Just experience. No experiencer.
Just seeing, hearing, thinking, laughing, crying but nobody doing these.
Nobody to try and reach enlightenment because there is nobody. Life already is perfectly complete as it is.
Thank you
I notice you side-stepped the question on just how all this new-found clarity is affecting your family life.
So how are you juggling things?