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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
It's a gift I have, statin' the bleedin' hobvieus...
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2015
I'm not even sure how rebirth would work on a linear scale if looking at the big picture.
In light of non-separation, if we followed the trail of lives all the way back, wouldn't we all end up together?
I think that if rebirth and non-separation are truths then we are just the same joker we've always been and that we are all just rebirths of each other.
Just a bunch of Jataka Tales waking up one aspect at a time.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2015
I am he as you are he as you are me
And we are all together...
(1st line of 'I am the walrus' Lennon/McCartney and no, I don't know what the heck they were on when they wrote this stuff! I have read some explanations, all of them very credible, but it would be totally O/T to go into them....)
@Lee82 said:
Hey, not posted on here for a while but still check in every now and again :-)
There's something that I've been reflecting on recently regarding the philosophy of multiple lives and births. In my early Buddhism days my mind was totally against the idea of rebirth; I was of the view that this life is the only life and when it's gone it's gone. I became more open-minded and accepted that there is no way to prove or disprove the theory so I will not form a judgement on it, I had accepted that the bardo states and rebirth are a possibility. I am now more inclined to accept the theory that my true being is one that has no physical form and that I occupy this body in this life and will move to another life after this one. Thus accepting the impermanence of this life and having no fear of death.
One thing that I cannot reconcile in my mind is that evidence of reincarnation always suggests a transfer of memory from one life to the next. But if our true being is non-physical and memories are stored in our brain cells (as evidenced by degenerative mental conditions that cause loss of memory), how can memories of any sort be transferred to another life?
Something doesn't quite fit right for me. I'm sure there's a logical argument or solution to my ponderings and if someone could kindly explain to me then I'd be more than happy to listen. I'm getting there, just not quite there yet.
Welcome to the paradox of mind versus the universe. We now know the universe is unimaginably vast and ancient. We also know a huge amount about the laws of how it works, and that our little star and planet and species is only an impossibly tiny piece of this dance of death and birth of stars. There is no evidence and no reason beyond our desire to cling to existence for any belief in a God or life after death in any form.
Yet...we have the miracle of consciousness itself. It is that consciousness applied that allows us to comprehend the dance of solar systems. That a collection of atoms and elements and energy could create something so amazing as a conscious, intelligent mind is such a unique thing that even our own minds, which can examine the building blocks of quarks, cannot comprehend the limits of our own consciousness. We are unique on the Earth. Are we unique in the universe? We don't know. Tear apart a brain, and from the outside it's a collection of gunky membranes and connected cells. Consciousness itself cannot be seen. Is it possible the same holds true for the vast universe as a whole? We simply don't know. There's no way to tell.
So while I don't believe there is any part of what I call "me" that survives the death of the brain, I have no problem with people who believe otherwise. There is a saying in science: "Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence." Fortunately, as is pointed out above, whether or not a few scattered memories survive is irrelevant to who you are today.
I prefer the Buddha who wouldn't be bothered with metaphysical questions.
Personally, I don't like to lose sleep over issues which can't be demonstrated no matter how much time we debate over them.
I prefer to substitute pure smoke speculation for issues which are relevant to cessation of dukkha anyday.
Overthinking rebirth gets us sidetracked from the path to nirvana.
I know it is not fashionable in Western Buddhism, but the scriptures are 100% clear that Buddha and his followers sincerely believed in rebirth and past lives. I mean, that's the whole deal, right? We are "trapped" in samsara, suffering on suffering, rebirth after rebirth, our karma from this life affecting the next one and beyond, until, if we are very lucky indeed, we awaken to nirvana, and jump off that ever-turnin' wheel for good. No amount of fancy talk can escape the simple fact that that is what Buddha historically taught. It really is beyond opinion - in my opinion
Now, this is hard for me. Because as a Western raised and educated in the rationalist, empiricist, scientist world view, the actual reality of rebirth really seems like a lot of baloney (as opposed to the reality that Buddha taught rebirth, past lives etc, which as above, is just a fact IMO). It really does. I just can't get my head to go there when I try to contemplate the mechanics of a set of memories passing from one body to another through "thin air", which in my conceptualisation is what would need to happen for a person to have access to past life memories.
So this is what I do. I think "Does it ease my suffering right now?" to "have an opinion" one way or another on if it is "true" or not? And the answer is "No, it bloody does not! In fact, it kinda makes me suffer MORE when I try to intellectualise, argue about it either to myself or others."
@SpinyNorman said:
Cinorjer said: There is no evidence and no reason beyond our desire to cling to existence for any belief in a God or life after death in any form.
I suspect a lot of religious belief is wishful thinking, a need for comfort in a brief and uncertain existence, a clutching at metaphysical straws.
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'
"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.
"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.
@Daozen said: I know it is not fashionable in Western Buddhism, but the scriptures are 100% clear that Buddha and his followers sincerely believed in rebirth and past lives. I mean, that's the whole deal, right? We are "trapped" in samsara, suffering on suffering, rebirth after rebirth, our karma from this life affecting the next one and beyond, until, if we are very lucky indeed, we awaken to nirvana, and jump off that ever-turnin' wheel for good. No amount of fancy talk can escape the simple fact that that is what Buddha historically taught.
I agree. It's an inconvenient truth for the secularists. Some of them go to extraordinary lengths in their attempts to airbrush rebirth out of the suttas, but it's a pointless exercise.
@pegembara said:"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress". Sabbasava Sutta
Though of course in the suttas rebirth is an integral aspect of the Noble Truths. For example the Second Noble Truth includes the craving for further becoming in the realms, and the nidanas in dependent origination are defined in a way that strongly point to a cycle of rebirth ( they certainly don't support dependent origination as a purely psychological process, as some argue ).
I thought Buddhism was based on reincarnation. I am surprised to see many don't believe Buddha's teachings on reincarnation.
Buddhism is belief and having faith in Shakyamuni Buddha's teachings about the Truth( True teachings, The Law of the cosmos, Dharma ) and big part of Shakyamuni buddha's teaching includes reincarnation ( samsara ).
I've been told that practice without faith has no merit ( Guna, accumulating good and eliminating evil within us ). Being a buddhist has a lot to do with changing yourself within because we all have flaws like self-conceit, arrogance, false pride, ect ( which we accumulated through living many lifetime. ). Without practice and faith in Buddha's teaching you won't be able to achieve this. I also have been told that having too much knowledges gets in the way.
@KarikoPuppies Yes it is interesting isn't it? Most practising Buddhists throughout history have believed in rebirth. Likewise, most lay practitioners never practised meditation - that was for the monks. Instead, they aimed at accumulating merit via good deeds in order to obtain a favourable rebirth in their next life.
In contrast, Western Buddhists are often often quite obsessed with meditation to the point it becomes another thing to crave after, whilst they find it difficult to reconcile rebirth with their secular world view.
@KarikoPuppies said:
I thought Buddhism was based on reincarnation. I am surprised to see many don't believe Buddha's teachings on reincarnation.
Buddhism is belief and having faith in Shakyamuni Buddha's teachings about the Truth( True teachings, The Law of the cosmos, Dharma ) and big part of Shakyamuni buddha's teaching includes reincarnation ( samsara ).
I've been told that practice without faith has no merit ( Guna, accumulating good and eliminating evil within us ). Being a buddhist has a lot to do with changing yourself within because we all have flaws like self-conceit, arrogance, false pride, ect ( which we accumulated through living many lifetime. ). Without practice and faith in Buddha's teaching you won't be able to achieve this. I also have been told that having too much knowledges gets in the way.
I know, the many variations of what is usually called "Skeptical Buddhism" in the West leaves devoted traditional Buddhists scratching their heads and wondering what's up. I'm not trying to tell you that your practice is wrong, only that mine works for me. Nor would you notice any difference in our practices. It's only when the subject is brought up that people start insisting we must believe in (x,y,z) to be real Buddhists, whatever that means.
Every one of your statements has been repeated to me all me life, only from my family and with "Christ" and "Christian" and "resurrection" substituted. If I was capable of believing something simply because I'm told I am supposed to believe it, I would be a devoted Christian as I was raised.
Oh, and the "too much knowledge gets in the way" makes Skeptical Buddhists of all types grit our teeth. It's an appeal to ignorance as a virtue. Yes, knowledge gets in the way of false beliefs and irrational fears and superstitious nonsense. That's not a bad thing. Knowledge also teaches me that the Dharma and Noble Truths are worthy of my faith and belief.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2015
@KarikoPuppies said:
I thought Buddhism was based on reincarnation. I am surprised to see many don't believe Buddha's teachings on reincarnation.
Buddhism is belief and having faith in Shakyamuni Buddha's teachings about the Truth( True teachings, The Law of the cosmos, Dharma ) and big part of Shakyamuni buddha's teaching includes reincarnation ( samsara ).
I've been told that practice without faith has no merit ( Guna, accumulating good and eliminating evil within us ). Being a buddhist has a lot to do with changing yourself within because we all have flaws like self-conceit, arrogance, false pride, ect ( which we accumulated through living many lifetime. ). Without practice and faith in Buddha's teaching you won't be able to achieve this. I also have been told that having too much knowledges gets in the way.
I wouldn't say it's based on reincarnation/rebirth because if we focus too much on past or future lifetimes we miss the here and now.
I understand you have heard that practice without faith has no merit but I think it's the other way around. Practicing to be skillful, doing the least amount of harm possible and expanding the sense of compassion without the need for faith seems more ethical to me somehow.
You seem to be saying Buddhism is the only way but there are many that embody the dharma without even knowing anything about Buddhism.
thank you guys for sharing your thoughts I really appreciate that sincerely : )
I became a buddhist because I was very ill and I did not know much about buddhism at all when I first started. So I did not have faith nor any knowledge even though my mom and granny were buddhists ( later I found out they were not real buddhist ).
anyway, so what I have been doing was mostly what my teacher told me to ( practice and have faith, then study buddhism, these three go hand in hand together ). so I did and I got happy and healthy. Buddhism is not so complicated if you just look into the core teachings. Being a good person through practice with faith in Shakyamuni Buddha's teaching and be a good person in general is the big one in my opinion. Through this your inner world became cleaner so as your body and your circumstances because your thought process and habits are changed). I am just a simpleton. I respect and trust Buddha's teachings and I trust that my teacher teaches me only the buddha's teaching truthfully. As I follow that I became happy and healthy. I am here because we human are all connected in some way so I wanted to know how other people think about buddhism.
My teacher also said even Sariputta ( he was genius level of intelligence and memorized teachings by heart ) was told he would not will attain enlightenment unless he enters into the True Law with faith without doubt.
I asked over and over again about God as in Christianity ( I was a christian before became a buddhist ) and my teacher briefly mentioned there is only one True Law, people call that Truth in many names.(God, Buddha, True Dharma ect ). ( I try not to say this because I don't want to start a argument and I do respect everyone's faith and belief because it's totally up to them what kind of life they want to live )
I know this thread is about reincarnation but I just wanted to share a little bit of my story. Wishing you all happiness through Buddha's teachings.
@Cinorjer said:It's only when the subject is brought up that people start insisting we must believe in (x,y,z) to be real Buddhists, whatever that means.
Clearly that attitude is unhelpful, though I've seen it on both sides of the debate.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
"It should be no more surprising to be born twice, as it was to have been born once."
Voltaire.
For some reason, I find that idle thought quite perceptive and logical.
Yet in the Sabbasava sutta and many places elsewhere eg. Satta Sutta, Mahatanhasankya sutta, the Buddha clearly pointed that the way out of samsara is by appropriate attention. This appropriate attention is not a rejection of reincarnation but a transcending of all self view. Right view that is supramundane instead of right view that sides with merit.
How is a retired soldier remembering his wartime experiences going to put an end to his suffering? He has enough issue this life already to even bother about what happened earlier.
That is why when self view is absent, the question of past or future lives simply doesn't arise. Birth and death for that person is figuratively ended.
Btw I have every reason to not reject rebirth/reincarnation from personal experiences and those I am acquainted with. Just saying.
@SpinyNorman said:
Clearly that attitude is unhelpful, though I've seen it on both sides of the debate.
Yes, it's a shame that we can get hung up on the differences in what we believe and how we put the Middle Way into practice. But exploring all the nooks and crannies of Buddhist history and cosmology is how we learn what it meant to be Buddhist then, and what it means to us now.
I've heard many times that it's not "us" that gets reborn.
The story of us dies with this body. I think many people approach rebirth as a way of making themselves feel better that they will be reborn.
In Zen they call awakening "The Great Death" the die before we die. Or personal Armageddon.
I have a feeling that if we want to be free of rebirth we need to be fully willing to die. Right now.
The vast majority of us are not quite ready to die to the self. But sooner or later, we all have to face death of the physical kind. That is when we come to realise that there is really nothing that we can cling to. Because there is nothing that is truly ours.
I always remember one of the common phrases of Ajahn Chah, when I was in his monastery in Thailand. He’d come up to you and ask, “Have you come here to die?”, and of course, it’s very strange that someone would ask that because you’d be thinking “I haven’t come here to die, I’ve come here to get Enlightened, and to get nice meditations”, but he’d ask, “Have you come here to die?” And because Ajahn Chah was always repeating that phrase, it became very clear that this idea of dying is a very profound and useful one. So this is what I’m going to be talking about today.
I think this subject(rebirth) is very meaningful to me because I think accepting the rebirth is the door that lead us to Mahayana from Theravada, maybe not in theory but practically at heart. Once I accepted three Laws ( Samsara, Karma, Cause & condition ), everything made sense to me. Why I was born this way, everything about me, why the world seems so unfair ect ect. And I could finally live my life the way it should be not the way I desire it to be. I could stop resenting others for my unhappiness because everything in my life is 100 % my own making. I still am working on my unhealthy attachments through teachings and practice and I know this is going to be more than one life time of work. I guess I am attached to this subject. Time to move on! Peace to you all : ) thanks for the thread to OP.
Guess I have a way to go as often can't remember what I had for breakfast. Or did I have breakfast? Hmmm..now let me think - OUCH! That hurt! Hope I don't set off the smoke alarm again.
Seriously, it is not so much rebirth or your concept of rebirth or memory of past lives. What is important is to live each day, each moment as it comes - in the now. The rest is mere "mind-think".
The easy ones first ... In the sense that Ajahn Chah means, we all come to Dharma to die. Most Of us cling to ideas, attachments and our endless cycle of meaningless living and craving for better ... We have to die to be reborn.
@pegembara said:Birth and death for that person is figuratively ended.
That interpretation isn't supported by the suttas, where birth and death are clearly described as physical rather than psychological events. It's fine to put aside all the stuff on rebirth and the realms, but please don't pretend it's not there.
What I see is a lot of aversion dressed up as sophistication.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@Earthninja said:
I've heard many times that it's not "us" that gets reborn.
The story of us dies with this body. I think many people approach rebirth as a way of making themselves feel better that they will be reborn.
It's weird too because even the Dalai Lama says he isn't even close to being the same person as his predecessor.
It would probably be good to treat this life as if it's the only one we live even if there is rebirth.
In Zen they call awakening "The Great Death" the die before we die. Or personal Armageddon.
I have a feeling that if we want to be free of rebirth we need to be fully willing to die. Right now.
I have to admit I was more willing before my daughter was born.
@Earthninja said: I think many people approach rebirth as a way of making themselves feel better that they will be reborn.
Yes, that's probably the case. Though of course in Buddhism the goal is traditionally liberation from the cycle of rebirth, and not a continuance of it. It's worth noting that the desire for further rebirth is an aspect of tanha in the Second Noble Truth.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
That's why I'm not sure if I (if given the time) will just try to remain focused and just accept whatever happens (or doesn't) or whether I should try to aim just for kicks.
Maybe it will happen fast so I don't get to decide.
@ourself, yeah definitely. I've listened to many people talk to their teachers.
They say they were so close to a full awakening but they backed out. The fear of annihilation is the final defence of the ego.
Most people want their interpretation of enlightenment. But faced with death of ourselves I'm sure most back out. Our attachments run so deep.
It's sometimes depicts it as a tiger, it tips you to shreds untill there is not even nothingness left. Then you wake up.
Who wants in?
@Earthninja said:
I've listened to many people talk to their teachers.
They say they were so close to a full awakening but they backed out. The fear of annihilation is the final defence of the ego.
@lobster for sure but there does appear to a turning point. Maybe not necessarily at full awakening but some realisation.
It's at these moments that the ego throws it's best defences/attachments.
You can surrender or back out.
It reminds me of when Buddha faced Mara/demons/girls. That was him letting go of all attachments/fears.
Nobody knows they are fully awake till the realisation agreed. People seem to want their version of enlightenment but don't want the truth.
The truth and awakening are synonymous. Truth isn't necessarily bliss and peace.
@Earthninja said:
lobster for sure but there does appear to a turning point. Maybe not necessarily at full awakening but some realisation.
Everyone, always is in the state of almost awake but not awake.
The turning point is about the degree of realisation, the depth of understanding after one is awake.
'I dreamt I was almost awake, I almost know what the taste of an orange is.'
... sound a little comical to you? ....
It may amuse people to think they are 'near', the truth is they have never been 'far'.
You will be annihilated/exterminated comes from Dr Who not Dr Buddha ...
@Lee82 said:
Hey, not posted on here for a while but still check in every now and again :-)
There's something that I've been reflecting on recently regarding the philosophy of multiple lives and births. In my early Buddhism days my mind was totally against the idea of rebirth; I was of the view that this life is the only life and when it's gone it's gone. I became more open-minded and accepted that there is no way to prove or disprove the theory so I will not form a judgement on it, I had accepted that the bardo states and rebirth are a possibility. I am now more inclined to accept the theory that my true being is one that has no physical form and that I occupy this body in this life and will move to another life after this one. Thus accepting the impermanence of this life and having no fear of death.
One thing that I cannot reconcile in my mind is that evidence of reincarnation always suggests a transfer of memory from one life to the next. But if our true being is non-physical and memories are stored in our brain cells (as evidenced by degenerative mental conditions that cause loss of memory), how can memories of any sort be transferred to another life?
Something doesn't quite fit right for me. I'm sure there's a logical argument or solution to my ponderings and if someone could kindly explain to me then I'd be more than happy to listen. I'm getting there, just not quite there yet.
Those are good some questions. It could be that memories are stored in the brain; and when the body dies, all memories are lost. Then again, memory is data, which itself is simply a form of energy storage; and it possible that our memories are stored/carried on via some difficult to access medium, e.g., genetics, storehouse consciousness a la Yogacara, morphogeneic field, etc.
As for how such a transference of memory is possible (if indeed such a thing even exists), it may take place on the quantum level, kind of like 'spooky action at a distance' where two entangled particles communicate with each other instantaneously, even over great distances. This could also go to explain rebirth — which is viewed as an instantaneous process whereby the last consciousness of a being at the time of death immediately conditions the arising of a new consciousness — occurs.
This is all just speculation on my part, however, so take what i say with a grain of salt. And for what it's worth, while I think the the teachings on rebirth are useful, I don't believe that buying them without evidence is a requirement for developing the path factors leading to wisdom and awakening.
Comments
All our lives are in the past.
And in the future.
I love presents.
It's a gift I have, statin' the bleedin' hobvieus...
I'm not even sure how rebirth would work on a linear scale if looking at the big picture.
In light of non-separation, if we followed the trail of lives all the way back, wouldn't we all end up together?
I think that if rebirth and non-separation are truths then we are just the same joker we've always been and that we are all just rebirths of each other.
Just a bunch of Jataka Tales waking up one aspect at a time.
(1st line of 'I am the walrus' Lennon/McCartney and no, I don't know what the heck they were on when they wrote this stuff! I have read some explanations, all of them very credible, but it would be totally O/T to go into them....)
Welcome to the paradox of mind versus the universe. We now know the universe is unimaginably vast and ancient. We also know a huge amount about the laws of how it works, and that our little star and planet and species is only an impossibly tiny piece of this dance of death and birth of stars. There is no evidence and no reason beyond our desire to cling to existence for any belief in a God or life after death in any form.
Yet...we have the miracle of consciousness itself. It is that consciousness applied that allows us to comprehend the dance of solar systems. That a collection of atoms and elements and energy could create something so amazing as a conscious, intelligent mind is such a unique thing that even our own minds, which can examine the building blocks of quarks, cannot comprehend the limits of our own consciousness. We are unique on the Earth. Are we unique in the universe? We don't know. Tear apart a brain, and from the outside it's a collection of gunky membranes and connected cells. Consciousness itself cannot be seen. Is it possible the same holds true for the vast universe as a whole? We simply don't know. There's no way to tell.
So while I don't believe there is any part of what I call "me" that survives the death of the brain, I have no problem with people who believe otherwise. There is a saying in science: "Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence." Fortunately, as is pointed out above, whether or not a few scattered memories survive is irrelevant to who you are today.
Even born-again Christians and Muslims talk about their "past lives". Didn't any of you have a life before Buddhism?
@Cinorjer said: There is no evidence and no reason beyond our desire to cling to existence for any belief in a God or life after death in any form.
I suspect a lot of religious belief is wishful thinking, a need for comfort in a brief and uncertain existence, a clutching at metaphysical straws.
I prefer the Buddha who wouldn't be bothered with metaphysical questions.
Personally, I don't like to lose sleep over issues which can't be demonstrated no matter how much time we debate over them.
I prefer to substitute pure smoke speculation for issues which are relevant to cessation of dukkha anyday.
Overthinking rebirth gets us sidetracked from the path to nirvana.
I know it is not fashionable in Western Buddhism, but the scriptures are 100% clear that Buddha and his followers sincerely believed in rebirth and past lives. I mean, that's the whole deal, right? We are "trapped" in samsara, suffering on suffering, rebirth after rebirth, our karma from this life affecting the next one and beyond, until, if we are very lucky indeed, we awaken to nirvana, and jump off that ever-turnin' wheel for good. No amount of fancy talk can escape the simple fact that that is what Buddha historically taught. It really is beyond opinion - in my opinion
Now, this is hard for me. Because as a Western raised and educated in the rationalist, empiricist, scientist world view, the actual reality of rebirth really seems like a lot of baloney (as opposed to the reality that Buddha taught rebirth, past lives etc, which as above, is just a fact IMO). It really does. I just can't get my head to go there when I try to contemplate the mechanics of a set of memories passing from one body to another through "thin air", which in my conceptualisation is what would need to happen for a person to have access to past life memories.
So this is what I do. I think "Does it ease my suffering right now?" to "have an opinion" one way or another on if it is "true" or not? And the answer is "No, it bloody does not! In fact, it kinda makes me suffer MORE when I try to intellectualise, argue about it either to myself or others."
So now, I don't.
Happy past, present and future everyone!
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'
"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.
"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.
Sabbasava Sutta
I agree. It's an inconvenient truth for the secularists. Some of them go to extraordinary lengths in their attempts to airbrush rebirth out of the suttas, but it's a pointless exercise.
Though of course in the suttas rebirth is an integral aspect of the Noble Truths. For example the Second Noble Truth includes the craving for further becoming in the realms, and the nidanas in dependent origination are defined in a way that strongly point to a cycle of rebirth ( they certainly don't support dependent origination as a purely psychological process, as some argue ).
I thought Buddhism was based on reincarnation. I am surprised to see many don't believe Buddha's teachings on reincarnation.
Buddhism is belief and having faith in Shakyamuni Buddha's teachings about the Truth( True teachings, The Law of the cosmos, Dharma ) and big part of Shakyamuni buddha's teaching includes reincarnation ( samsara ).
I've been told that practice without faith has no merit ( Guna, accumulating good and eliminating evil within us ). Being a buddhist has a lot to do with changing yourself within because we all have flaws like self-conceit, arrogance, false pride, ect ( which we accumulated through living many lifetime. ). Without practice and faith in Buddha's teaching you won't be able to achieve this. I also have been told that having too much knowledges gets in the way.
@KarikoPuppies Yes it is interesting isn't it? Most practising Buddhists throughout history have believed in rebirth. Likewise, most lay practitioners never practised meditation - that was for the monks. Instead, they aimed at accumulating merit via good deeds in order to obtain a favourable rebirth in their next life.
In contrast, Western Buddhists are often often quite obsessed with meditation to the point it becomes another thing to crave after, whilst they find it difficult to reconcile rebirth with their secular world view.
It's a wonderful wonderful world, isn't it?
I know, the many variations of what is usually called "Skeptical Buddhism" in the West leaves devoted traditional Buddhists scratching their heads and wondering what's up. I'm not trying to tell you that your practice is wrong, only that mine works for me. Nor would you notice any difference in our practices. It's only when the subject is brought up that people start insisting we must believe in (x,y,z) to be real Buddhists, whatever that means.
Every one of your statements has been repeated to me all me life, only from my family and with "Christ" and "Christian" and "resurrection" substituted. If I was capable of believing something simply because I'm told I am supposed to believe it, I would be a devoted Christian as I was raised.
Oh, and the "too much knowledge gets in the way" makes Skeptical Buddhists of all types grit our teeth. It's an appeal to ignorance as a virtue. Yes, knowledge gets in the way of false beliefs and irrational fears and superstitious nonsense. That's not a bad thing. Knowledge also teaches me that the Dharma and Noble Truths are worthy of my faith and belief.
I wouldn't say it's based on reincarnation/rebirth because if we focus too much on past or future lifetimes we miss the here and now.
I understand you have heard that practice without faith has no merit but I think it's the other way around. Practicing to be skillful, doing the least amount of harm possible and expanding the sense of compassion without the need for faith seems more ethical to me somehow.
You seem to be saying Buddhism is the only way but there are many that embody the dharma without even knowing anything about Buddhism.
thank you guys for sharing your thoughts I really appreciate that sincerely : )
I became a buddhist because I was very ill and I did not know much about buddhism at all when I first started. So I did not have faith nor any knowledge even though my mom and granny were buddhists ( later I found out they were not real buddhist ).
anyway, so what I have been doing was mostly what my teacher told me to ( practice and have faith, then study buddhism, these three go hand in hand together ). so I did and I got happy and healthy. Buddhism is not so complicated if you just look into the core teachings. Being a good person through practice with faith in Shakyamuni Buddha's teaching and be a good person in general is the big one in my opinion. Through this your inner world became cleaner so as your body and your circumstances because your thought process and habits are changed). I am just a simpleton. I respect and trust Buddha's teachings and I trust that my teacher teaches me only the buddha's teaching truthfully. As I follow that I became happy and healthy. I am here because we human are all connected in some way so I wanted to know how other people think about buddhism.
My teacher also said even Sariputta ( he was genius level of intelligence and memorized teachings by heart ) was told he would not will attain enlightenment unless he enters into the True Law with faith without doubt.
I asked over and over again about God as in Christianity ( I was a christian before became a buddhist ) and my teacher briefly mentioned there is only one True Law, people call that Truth in many names.(God, Buddha, True Dharma ect ). ( I try not to say this because I don't want to start a argument and I do respect everyone's faith and belief because it's totally up to them what kind of life they want to live )
I know this thread is about reincarnation but I just wanted to share a little bit of my story. Wishing you all happiness through Buddha's teachings.
Clearly that attitude is unhelpful, though I've seen it on both sides of the debate.
"It should be no more surprising to be born twice, as it was to have been born once."
Voltaire.
For some reason, I find that idle thought quite perceptive and logical.
Pourquoi pas...?
Yet in the Sabbasava sutta and many places elsewhere eg. Satta Sutta, Mahatanhasankya sutta, the Buddha clearly pointed that the way out of samsara is by appropriate attention. This appropriate attention is not a rejection of reincarnation but a transcending of all self view. Right view that is supramundane instead of right view that sides with merit.
How is a retired soldier remembering his wartime experiences going to put an end to his suffering? He has enough issue this life already to even bother about what happened earlier.
That is why when self view is absent, the question of past or future lives simply doesn't arise. Birth and death for that person is figuratively ended.
Btw I have every reason to not reject rebirth/reincarnation from personal experiences and those I am acquainted with. Just saying.
Yes, it's a shame that we can get hung up on the differences in what we believe and how we put the Middle Way into practice. But exploring all the nooks and crannies of Buddhist history and cosmology is how we learn what it meant to be Buddhist then, and what it means to us now.
I've heard many times that it's not "us" that gets reborn.
The story of us dies with this body. I think many people approach rebirth as a way of making themselves feel better that they will be reborn.
In Zen they call awakening "The Great Death" the die before we die. Or personal Armageddon.
I have a feeling that if we want to be free of rebirth we need to be fully willing to die. Right now.
The vast majority of us are not quite ready to die to the self. But sooner or later, we all have to face death of the physical kind. That is when we come to realise that there is really nothing that we can cling to. Because there is nothing that is truly ours.
I think this subject(rebirth) is very meaningful to me because I think accepting the rebirth is the door that lead us to Mahayana from Theravada, maybe not in theory but practically at heart. Once I accepted three Laws ( Samsara, Karma, Cause & condition ), everything made sense to me. Why I was born this way, everything about me, why the world seems so unfair ect ect. And I could finally live my life the way it should be not the way I desire it to be. I could stop resenting others for my unhappiness because everything in my life is 100 % my own making. I still am working on my unhealthy attachments through teachings and practice and I know this is going to be more than one life time of work. I guess I am attached to this subject. Time to move on! Peace to you all : ) thanks for the thread to OP.
Guess I have a way to go as often can't remember what I had for breakfast. Or did I have breakfast? Hmmm..now let me think - OUCH! That hurt! Hope I don't set off the smoke alarm again.
Seriously, it is not so much rebirth or your concept of rebirth or memory of past lives. What is important is to live each day, each moment as it comes - in the now. The rest is mere "mind-think".
Peace to all
Tee Hee.
What a dharma dude
The easy ones first ... In the sense that Ajahn Chah means, we all come to Dharma to die. Most Of us cling to ideas, attachments and our endless cycle of meaningless living and craving for better ... We have to die to be reborn.
Iz plan!
That interpretation isn't supported by the suttas, where birth and death are clearly described as physical rather than psychological events. It's fine to put aside all the stuff on rebirth and the realms, but please don't pretend it's not there.
What I see is a lot of aversion dressed up as sophistication.
It's weird too because even the Dalai Lama says he isn't even close to being the same person as his predecessor.
It would probably be good to treat this life as if it's the only one we live even if there is rebirth.
I have to admit I was more willing before my daughter was born.
Yes, that's probably the case. Though of course in Buddhism the goal is traditionally liberation from the cycle of rebirth, and not a continuance of it. It's worth noting that the desire for further rebirth is an aspect of tanha in the Second Noble Truth.
That's why I'm not sure if I (if given the time) will just try to remain focused and just accept whatever happens (or doesn't) or whether I should try to aim just for kicks.
Maybe it will happen fast so I don't get to decide.
@ourself, yeah definitely. I've listened to many people talk to their teachers.
They say they were so close to a full awakening but they backed out. The fear of annihilation is the final defence of the ego.
Most people want their interpretation of enlightenment. But faced with death of ourselves I'm sure most back out. Our attachments run so deep.
It's sometimes depicts it as a tiger, it tips you to shreds untill there is not even nothingness left. Then you wake up.
Who wants in?
I would prefer a playful tabby cat.
[lobster stifles laughter] Thinking one 'is so close' or so far for that matter [perhaps 'seven lifetimes' but hey who is counting ...] comes way before being anywhere near ...
http://kentonwhitman.com/2009/01/08/how-many-people-are-enlightened/
@lobster for sure but there does appear to a turning point. Maybe not necessarily at full awakening but some realisation.
It's at these moments that the ego throws it's best defences/attachments.
You can surrender or back out.
It reminds me of when Buddha faced Mara/demons/girls. That was him letting go of all attachments/fears.
Nobody knows they are fully awake till the realisation agreed. People seem to want their version of enlightenment but don't want the truth.
The truth and awakening are synonymous. Truth isn't necessarily bliss and peace.
The truth is often uncomfortable, at least initially.
Everyone, always is in the state of almost awake but not awake.
The turning point is about the degree of realisation, the depth of understanding after one is awake.
'I dreamt I was almost awake, I almost know what the taste of an orange is.'
... sound a little comical to you? ....
It may amuse people to think they are 'near', the truth is they have never been 'far'.
You will be annihilated/exterminated comes from Dr Who not Dr Buddha ...
Just so you know ...
Dr Who...Good Show...
Those are good some questions. It could be that memories are stored in the brain; and when the body dies, all memories are lost. Then again, memory is data, which itself is simply a form of energy storage; and it possible that our memories are stored/carried on via some difficult to access medium, e.g., genetics, storehouse consciousness a la Yogacara, morphogeneic field, etc.
As for how such a transference of memory is possible (if indeed such a thing even exists), it may take place on the quantum level, kind of like 'spooky action at a distance' where two entangled particles communicate with each other instantaneously, even over great distances. This could also go to explain rebirth — which is viewed as an instantaneous process whereby the last consciousness of a being at the time of death immediately conditions the arising of a new consciousness — occurs.
This is all just speculation on my part, however, so take what i say with a grain of salt. And for what it's worth, while I think the the teachings on rebirth are useful, I don't believe that buying them without evidence is a requirement for developing the path factors leading to wisdom and awakening.