Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
I have my limits, as well. There have been crimes against humanity that I cannot forgive, even though perhaps I should.
I felt similarly this weekend, when reading Hersey's "Hiroshima". Had this little book for ages, and finally picked it up to read (perhaps the 70-year anniversary of the horror had wormed its way in to my brain). Hersey wrote this the year after this planet entered the atomic age; it was banned (by the U.S.) in Japan for a few years.
Every sentence jarred me to the core, imagining the set of humans, my countrymen for the most part, dealing death to hundreds of thousands.
I have my limits, as well. There have been crimes against humanity that I cannot forgive, even though perhaps I should.
...
As 'Buddhists', we have no real choice but to forgive ALL. I've been tripping over that very recently myself.
Why don't we have a choice. I thought that was one of the wonderful features of Buddhism. For example, I will not forgive Pol Pot (I know, you thought I was going to say Hitler ).
As an aside, I remember one of David Frye's (impressionist) albums where Nelson Rockefeller has died and gone to heaven. Rockefeller talks about Hitler, says heaven has changed him completely...that now he is gentle as a lamb and wears penny loafers and cardigan sweaters.
This thread has forced me to think a lot differently about a lot of things. It really made me examine my thoughts and some grudges that I've held for a long time. Thanks everyone.
8
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@Steve_B said "Who is the only person affected by your harboring of ill will?"
yep. Thank you for pointing that out to us.
Guess who I've been thinking about whether I should forgive or not? My ex - surprise, surprise! He's just as bad as Hitler. If I could forgive Hitler, I guess I can let my ex off the hook, as well.
This reminds me of the recent incident with the dentist hunter guy who killed that lion? The internet screamed for the guy's blood, seemingly oblivious to the fact they were now, in effect, "hunting" him. Mob justice is never reasonable.
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@Daozen said:
This reminds me of the recent incident with the dentist hunter guy who killed that lion? The internet screamed for the guy's blood, seemingly oblivious to the fact they were now, in effect, "hunting" him. Mob justice is never reasonable.
No doubt. Because of the worry over Cecils cubs, some were actually calling for the blood of the guys children.
Suddenly it isn't so strange or hilarious that Trump is running for prez.
@Steve_B said:
By not forgiving Pol Pot, what effect are you having on him? And if you changed your mind and did forgive him, what effect would that have on him?
Isn't the answer, in either case, that it would have no effect on him whatsoever?
Who is the only person affected by your harboring of ill will?
What effect am I having on Pol Pot? None.
What effect is it having on me? None.
Every person who has done something to me, I have forgiven. Oh, it may take a while. But I work through it.
But I don't know Pol Pot. I just look at the suffering and deaths of 4 million people, and say no, I can't forgive that. I'm not suffering because of it. I don't lay awake nights over it. I rarely even think of it. But in the abstract I can't forgive that scope of genocide.
But this concept of total forgiveness ("mai pben rai" in Thailand) is a sure recipe for continued suffering.
Sometimes I question how we give compassion to sentient beings easily but not with humans. Hoping that one day we will be able to remove the filtering and just look through our beings.
Few thing solidify our identity like hatred, which makes it one of the hardest things to let go off.
I notice that often the folks who have the hardest time letting go of their hatred for others, lack the same capacity to forgive themselves.
I think that forgiveness of others and forgiveness of self, are not really two different states.
@silver said:
It would help to remind ourselves that this stuff went on before and after 'we' did that AND by other countries.
Sorry, I won't be less appalled by my country being the first and only one to drop atomic bombs, because "this stuff" (whatever that means) went on before and after, or because other countries did this - although they did not.
0
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@vinlyn said "But I don't know Pol Pot. I just look at the suffering and deaths of 4 million people, and say no, I can't forgive that. I'm not suffering because of it. I don't lay awake nights over it. I rarely even think of it. But in the abstract I can't forgive that scope of genocide.
But this concept of total forgiveness ("mai pben rai" in Thailand) is a sure recipe for continued suffering."
Yes, exactly: in the abstract, it is unforgiveable, but I think in the way Buddha or Christ meant it, it is a wise prescription...although just yesterday, I said to myself that it is impossible to forgive those who have done so much death and destruction (Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. etc.). It would seem that no one can stop the despots - How can they/we? If we could, we would've by now, right?
0
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@Nele said "Sorry, I won't be less appalled by my country being the first and only one to drop atomic bombs, because "this stuff" (whatever that means) went on before and after, or because other countries did this - although they did not."
"This stuff" obviously was referring to the dictators who have ordered men to destroy other men and lay waste.
If one cannot forgive Hitler, etc. it may not cause that person to suffer all that much. But, it does signify that one has yet to cultivate the Buddha's metta, as the Buddha's metta is all encompassing, all embracing, boundless, etc, etc. Not having the Buddha's all embracing metta, can be called detrimental when compared to having it. It means one has yet to enter metta's divine abode. Being inside the divine abode is better than being outside it! It would be prudent for one to try to cultivate so that they can enter the divine abode.
@seeker242 said:
If one cannot forgive Hitler, etc. it may not cause that person to suffer all that much. But, it does signify that one has yet to cultivate the Buddha's metta, as the Buddha's metta is all encompassing, all embracing, boundless, etc, etc. Not having the Buddha's all embracing metta, can be called detrimental when compared to having it. It means one has yet to enter metta's divine abode. Being inside the divine abode is better than being outside it! It would be prudent for one to try to cultivate so that they can enter the divine abode.
One who is more of a religious Buddhist looks at that concept far differently than one who is more secular.
1
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@vinlyn said "One who is more of a religious Buddhist looks at that concept far differently than one who is more secular."
I just wanna make sure I understand where you're coming from. Is @seeker242 secular or ? The exchange made me think about whether or not one assimilates what the Buddha meant in terms of forgiveness and I think that is a different aspect - the most important one, anyway.
@silver said:
vinlyn said "One who is more of a religious Buddhist looks at that concept far differently than one who is more secular."
I just wanna make sure I understand where you're coming from. Is seeker242 secular or ? The exchange made me think about whether or not one assimilates what the Buddha meant in terms of forgiveness and I think that is a different aspect - the most important one, anyway.
I think it's obvious that people look at things differently. As for myself, I don't think I can be called secular, far from it!
@silver said:
vinlyn said "One who is more of a religious Buddhist looks at that concept far differently than one who is more secular."
I just wanna make sure I understand where you're coming from. Is seeker242 secular or ? The exchange made me think about whether or not one assimilates what the Buddha meant in terms of forgiveness and I think that is a different aspect - the most important one, anyway.
It only really matters what seeker242 thinks he is. Based on his posts, I would refer to him as a "religious Buddhist"; nothing negative about that. It's just different than how I see myself.
@silver said:
...The exchange made me think about whether or not one assimilates what the Buddha meant in terms of forgiveness and I think that is a different aspect - the most important one, anyway.
I think some of what we are talking about is clouded up by 3 different concepts:
Compassion: Which is why I started this thread. I feel compassion for the suffering that Jared is experiencing, has experienced in the past, and will experience in the future. While not exclusive to Buddhism, I think compassion is a very important and integral part of Buddhism.
Forgiveness: I actually think that forgiveness is a very different thing than compassion, though not unrelated. I'm thinking of Jo--. I forgave that person fairly soon after certain things happened. I wished them a good life. I didn't want anything to happen to them because of what they did.
The old forgive and forget concept: Well forget that. If someone hurts me terribly or does something really bad, I'll almost certainly forgive them. I'll probably wish them well. But I won't forget the issue. "Jo-- I forgive you. Have a good and happy life. But make sure it's not around me." That is not so much anything beyond practicality.
I think about this often too (I have not yet read all the comments but I will go back this evening).
I have compassion for Jared because I spent a long time in college studying sex offenders. They aren't just everyday people who go out and commit a crime. They have mental and emotional issues, sometimes caused by outright mental illness and sometimes caused by mental illness that is a side effect of something that happened to them. The bottom line is that people who aren't suffering greatly don't do things that make others suffer.
Then what I always come around to is: What do I contribute to our society that causes these things to happen? Who do I idolize that I hold to higher standards? What do I do to contribute to people getting beyond rich to the point they lose who they were? Often there is a lot I do to indirectly contribute, and I try to look at what I can realistically change so that I don't contribute to it.
I love baseball. When I think (or worse, post on social media) things like "GAWD, we pay Joe Mauer so much and he's doing nothing. He owes us fans to be doing better!" I'm contributing in some small way to the same problem of anyone we put on a pedestal. Many, many people in that position run into problems. Drugs, cheating, gambling, cheating on spouses, and so on. And a lot of it is due to the pressure put on them. Including by people like me who post things expecting so much more of them than should be possible.
How did we all contribute to Jared? By finding his story amazing, by running to Subway so we could lose weight? By contributing to making him rich which no doubt contributed to him thinking he was able to get away with things he shouldn't have. I think that happens to a lot of rich people. I think there are a lot of people who have these kinds of thoughts but never act because they retain their fear, and money does something to remove that fear that stops us from doing stupid shit just because our mind concocts some crazy idea. Child prostitution is largely fueled by the American and European market. Because we can afford it. Because people with nothing better to spend money on think their money will protect them. If you can pay a kid enough, many of them will keep their mouths shut. And we all contribute to it by putting people like Jared on a pedestal and looking up to them. Even Buddhist teachers and Catholic priests aren't immune! I think it fundamentally changing a person's brain chemistry if they are not trained how to protect themselves.
So, more than wondering if I can forgive him, I worry about how I can live a life where I am not contributing to it, because I am tired of having to forgive myself.
@Daozen said:
vinlyn I believe the saying is forgive, but DONT forget. Since mindfulness and memory are intimately linked, even more reason to not forget.
Both are sayings -- forgive and forget, and forgive and don't forget. I think which one is best is dependent on the situation.
Where the don't forget one comes into play is when a reasonable person might wisely assume that the same or similar scenario might again arise with the same person. On the other hand, if it is truly an outlier, then it may be better to forget (although of course, we can't).
1
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@yagr said "Pol Pot and Buddha, Hitler and Jesus show my potential.
The greatest selfishness and the greatest selflessness are within me."
On the surface, I see it that way, too...BUT there are so many variables (that's why we would do best to forgive); yet these variables we might want to study and learn from, so as to create the potential for not having our history repeat itself like it has been for sooo long.
@silver - I do not know if their are an infinite number of variables, but suspect that there are more than I could study in a lifetime. For many years though, I had the opportunity to observe police officers and prison guards. The vast majority joined for altruistic and honorable reasons that had nothing to do with a paycheck or wielding power over others. As the years went by, I watched as they began to dehumanize their charges.
I do not think that they were more capable of evil than I. I don't believe that they were inherently weaker than I either. And yet, the more they dehumanized those they held power over, the worse their offenses toward those people became. I've seen them beat, rape and kill those they considered less than, and act remarkably unselfishly toward those they consider equals.
I agree with you. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it is through studying and learning from these instances that I was able to arrive at the conclusion which you commented on.
3
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
All in all, the things you shared, @yagr, are hair-raisingly terrifying and it's hard, indeed to wrap one's mind - one's psyche around the hows and whys of it. Reasonable people don't want these things to happen and yet here we are! It is beyond discouraging. So, I am beyond grateful that Buddha - and company - found ways to live with these horrors. And yet there is no suggestion that we give up finding ways to improve our lot as a whole. But there does seem to be a powerful segment of 'society' that encourages us to get discouraged.
@vinlyn said:
it may be better to forget (although of course, we can't).
Exactly. Since we can't forget, even if we want to, don't bother trying. To do so only encourages more suffering. Instead, we can re-contextualise our relationship with the person/event in a more positive way. When you are ready -- because only you can make the choice -- forgiveness is an important part of that process.
On a serious note, the one thing I struggle with/work on in regards to Compassion is that when I start to feel a bit smug about it, I imagine Hitler standing in front of me and see if I can forgive him for murdering my family in Dachau. THAT always bring me down to earth with a thud. Every. Single. Time.
_ /\ _
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
....And.... Can you?
Generically speaking, (To all, not to one person....) For a short instant, if you can, take away the opinion widely held by the modern civilised world, of how destructive and overwhelming the human tragedy was, and how that sits prominently in our hearts and minds. Allow for that, yes, never lose it.
But gently lay aside the natural revulsion, horror and distaste one feels for the results of his dictatorship and influence; The still-raw aversion to what happened last century.
Think a moment on what this man's objective was: To create a race of perfect people.
He wanted to completely erase and eradicate imperfections (as he perceived them).
This is why he himself refused to have children. Because he knew he himself was an imperfect specimen.
He had an aim.
Misguided, destructive, mindless and atrocious in its objective, he still had a dream of achieving something.
And if we can look past his heinous and deplorable operations and manner and means of reaching his objectives, Understand that he had a plan.
Misguided, prejudicial, and one certainly which could have been torn to shreds in a furious debate.
But he had charisma. Personality. A persuasive and at first, logical argument.
One steeped in nationalism and the desire to retain purity and idealism.
Consider how you would speak to him face to face; how you would argue against his ideals and present a different perspective. How you would state your case and demonstrate his flawed thinking.
Perhaps, maybe, just maybe, bringing him to an equal-human-level to you, in a discursive situation, we might look at him as a misguided man, rather than the embodiment of everything that is evil and hateful.
We have much the same ideology being disseminated by a so-called Islamic faction now.
Look at the havoc, mayhem and utterly disastrous chaotic effects they are having on entire countries.
It seems impossible to imagine any one of them would listen to reason....
But maybe Hitler may have done....
When we humanise a person to a level we can equate with, maybe the Compassion has room to grow....
Generically speaking, (To all, not to one person....) For a short instant, if you can, take away the opinion widely held by the modern civilised world, of how destructive and overwhelming the human tragedy was, and how that sits prominently in our hearts and minds. Allow for that, yes, never lose it.
But gently lay aside the natural revulsion, horror and distaste one feels for the results of his dictatorship and influence; The still-raw aversion to what happened last century.
Think a moment on what this man's objective was: To create a race of perfect people.
He wanted to completely erase and eradicate imperfections (as he perceived them).
This is why he himself refused to have children. Because he knew he himself was an imperfect specimen.
He had an aim.
Misguided, destructive, mindless and atrocious in its objective, he still had a dream of achieving something.
And if we can look past his heinous and deplorable operations and manner and means of reaching his objectives, Understand that he had a plan.
Misguided, prejudicial, and one certainly which could have been torn to shreds in a furious debate.
But he had charisma. Personality. A persuasive and at first, logical argument.
One steeped in nationalism and the desire to retain purity and idealism.
Consider how you would speak to him face to face; how you would argue against his ideals and present a different perspective. How you would state your case and demonstrate his flawed thinking.
Perhaps, maybe, just maybe, bringing him to an equal-human-level to you, in a discursive situation, we might look at him as a misguided man, rather than the embodiment of everything that is evil and hateful.
We have much the same ideology being disseminated by a so-called Islamic faction now.
Look at the havoc, mayhem and utterly disastrous chaotic effects they are having on entire countries.
It seems impossible to imagine any one of them would listen to reason....
But maybe Hitler may have done....
When we humanise a person to a level we can equate with, maybe the Compassion has room to grow....
Yes, perfectionism often masquerades as a virtue (and one, I might add, highly encouraged in our consumerist society: "BUY NOW and everything will be GREAT") but in fact it leads to personal neurosis, social anxiety, and when combined with megalomania, genocide.
If my practice has taught me anything, it is that I am perfectly OK being flawed.
Comments
I felt similarly this weekend, when reading Hersey's "Hiroshima". Had this little book for ages, and finally picked it up to read (perhaps the 70-year anniversary of the horror had wormed its way in to my brain). Hersey wrote this the year after this planet entered the atomic age; it was banned (by the U.S.) in Japan for a few years.
Every sentence jarred me to the core, imagining the set of humans, my countrymen for the most part, dealing death to hundreds of thousands.
Napoleon was an upstart who was roundly defeated by an English gentleman with a big nose.
Compassion is compassion. What would be the point of it, if we could choose towards whom we'd be compassionate?
People are quite fond of making everthing, even someone's personal expression of compassion, a social justice issue.
It would help to remind ourselves that this stuff went on before and after 'we' did that AND by other countries.
...
@vinlyn said:
Well stated, Jason.
I have my limits, as well. There have been crimes against humanity that I cannot forgive, even though perhaps I should.
...
As 'Buddhists', we have no real choice but to forgive ALL. I've been tripping over that very recently myself.
Why don't we have a choice. I thought that was one of the wonderful features of Buddhism. For example, I will not forgive Pol Pot (I know, you thought I was going to say Hitler
).
As an aside, I remember one of David Frye's (impressionist) albums where Nelson Rockefeller has died and gone to heaven. Rockefeller talks about Hitler, says heaven has changed him completely...that now he is gentle as a lamb and wears penny loafers and cardigan sweaters.
By not forgiving Pol Pot, what effect are you having on him? And if you changed your mind and did forgive him, what effect would that have on him?
Isn't the answer, in either case, that it would have no effect on him whatsoever?
Who is the only person affected by your harboring of ill will?
Affect/effect: sorry! Can't figure out how to edit from my phone.
(fede: Done.
)
This thread has forced me to think a lot differently about a lot of things. It really made me examine my thoughts and some grudges that I've held for a long time. Thanks everyone.
@Steve_B said "Who is the only person affected by your harboring of ill will?"
yep. Thank you for pointing that out to us.
Guess who I've been thinking about whether I should forgive or not? My ex - surprise, surprise! He's just as bad as Hitler. If I could forgive Hitler, I guess I can let my ex off the hook, as well.
This reminds me of the recent incident with the dentist hunter guy who killed that lion? The internet screamed for the guy's blood, seemingly oblivious to the fact they were now, in effect, "hunting" him. Mob justice is never reasonable.
No doubt. Because of the worry over Cecils cubs, some were actually calling for the blood of the guys children.
Suddenly it isn't so strange or hilarious that Trump is running for prez.
What effect am I having on Pol Pot? None.
What effect is it having on me? None.
Every person who has done something to me, I have forgiven. Oh, it may take a while. But I work through it.
But I don't know Pol Pot. I just look at the suffering and deaths of 4 million people, and say no, I can't forgive that. I'm not suffering because of it. I don't lay awake nights over it. I rarely even think of it. But in the abstract I can't forgive that scope of genocide.
But this concept of total forgiveness ("mai pben rai" in Thailand) is a sure recipe for continued suffering.
Sometimes I question how we give compassion to sentient beings easily but not with humans. Hoping that one day we will be able to remove the filtering and just look through our beings.
Few thing solidify our identity like hatred, which makes it one of the hardest things to let go off.
I notice that often the folks who have the hardest time letting go of their hatred for others, lack the same capacity to forgive themselves.
I think that forgiveness of others and forgiveness of self, are not really two different states.
Sorry, I won't be less appalled by my country being the first and only one to drop atomic bombs, because "this stuff" (whatever that means) went on before and after, or because other countries did this - although they did not.
@vinlyn said "But I don't know Pol Pot. I just look at the suffering and deaths of 4 million people, and say no, I can't forgive that. I'm not suffering because of it. I don't lay awake nights over it. I rarely even think of it. But in the abstract I can't forgive that scope of genocide.
But this concept of total forgiveness ("mai pben rai" in Thailand) is a sure recipe for continued suffering."
Yes, exactly: in the abstract, it is unforgiveable, but I think in the way Buddha or Christ meant it, it is a wise prescription...although just yesterday, I said to myself that it is impossible to forgive those who have done so much death and destruction (Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. etc.). It would seem that no one can stop the despots - How can they/we? If we could, we would've by now, right?
@Nele said "Sorry, I won't be less appalled by my country being the first and only one to drop atomic bombs, because "this stuff" (whatever that means) went on before and after, or because other countries did this - although they did not."
"This stuff" obviously was referring to the dictators who have ordered men to destroy other men and lay waste.
(Please refer to my above post)
Can one "partially" forgive? Awareness of injustice can co-exist with forgiveness. You know, good old "forgive but not forget".
Punishment is just about you. It wouldn't change him or teach him a lesson because people like him cannot learn - there's no reason to do it.
If one cannot forgive Hitler, etc. it may not cause that person to suffer all that much. But, it does signify that one has yet to cultivate the Buddha's metta, as the Buddha's metta is all encompassing, all embracing, boundless, etc, etc. Not having the Buddha's all embracing metta, can be called detrimental when compared to having it. It means one has yet to enter metta's divine abode. Being inside the divine abode is better than being outside it! It would be prudent for one to try to cultivate so that they can enter the divine abode.
One who is more of a religious Buddhist looks at that concept far differently than one who is more secular.
@vinlyn said "One who is more of a religious Buddhist looks at that concept far differently than one who is more secular."
I just wanna make sure I understand where you're coming from. Is @seeker242 secular or ? The exchange made me think about whether or not one assimilates what the Buddha meant in terms of forgiveness and I think that is a different aspect - the most important one, anyway.
I think it's obvious that people look at things differently. As for myself, I don't think I can be called secular, far from it!
It only really matters what seeker242 thinks he is. Based on his posts, I would refer to him as a "religious Buddhist"; nothing negative about that. It's just different than how I see myself.
I think some of what we are talking about is clouded up by 3 different concepts:
Compassion: Which is why I started this thread. I feel compassion for the suffering that Jared is experiencing, has experienced in the past, and will experience in the future. While not exclusive to Buddhism, I think compassion is a very important and integral part of Buddhism.
Forgiveness: I actually think that forgiveness is a very different thing than compassion, though not unrelated. I'm thinking of Jo--. I forgave that person fairly soon after certain things happened. I wished them a good life. I didn't want anything to happen to them because of what they did.
The old forgive and forget concept: Well forget that. If someone hurts me terribly or does something really bad, I'll almost certainly forgive them. I'll probably wish them well. But I won't forget the issue. "Jo-- I forgive you. Have a good and happy life. But make sure it's not around me." That is not so much anything beyond practicality.
I think about this often too (I have not yet read all the comments but I will go back this evening).
I have compassion for Jared because I spent a long time in college studying sex offenders. They aren't just everyday people who go out and commit a crime. They have mental and emotional issues, sometimes caused by outright mental illness and sometimes caused by mental illness that is a side effect of something that happened to them. The bottom line is that people who aren't suffering greatly don't do things that make others suffer.
Then what I always come around to is: What do I contribute to our society that causes these things to happen? Who do I idolize that I hold to higher standards? What do I do to contribute to people getting beyond rich to the point they lose who they were? Often there is a lot I do to indirectly contribute, and I try to look at what I can realistically change so that I don't contribute to it.
I love baseball. When I think (or worse, post on social media) things like "GAWD, we pay Joe Mauer so much and he's doing nothing. He owes us fans to be doing better!" I'm contributing in some small way to the same problem of anyone we put on a pedestal. Many, many people in that position run into problems. Drugs, cheating, gambling, cheating on spouses, and so on. And a lot of it is due to the pressure put on them. Including by people like me who post things expecting so much more of them than should be possible.
How did we all contribute to Jared? By finding his story amazing, by running to Subway so we could lose weight? By contributing to making him rich which no doubt contributed to him thinking he was able to get away with things he shouldn't have. I think that happens to a lot of rich people. I think there are a lot of people who have these kinds of thoughts but never act because they retain their fear, and money does something to remove that fear that stops us from doing stupid shit just because our mind concocts some crazy idea. Child prostitution is largely fueled by the American and European market. Because we can afford it. Because people with nothing better to spend money on think their money will protect them. If you can pay a kid enough, many of them will keep their mouths shut. And we all contribute to it by putting people like Jared on a pedestal and looking up to them. Even Buddhist teachers and Catholic priests aren't immune! I think it fundamentally changing a person's brain chemistry if they are not trained how to protect themselves.
So, more than wondering if I can forgive him, I worry about how I can live a life where I am not contributing to it, because I am tired of having to forgive myself.
Pol Pot and Buddha, Hitler and Jesus show my potential.
The greatest selfishness and the greatest selflessness are within me.
Which wolf wins? The one you feed.
@vinlyn I believe the saying is forgive, but DONT forget. Since mindfulness and memory are intimately linked, even more reason to not forget.
Both are sayings -- forgive and forget, and forgive and don't forget. I think which one is best is dependent on the situation.
Where the don't forget one comes into play is when a reasonable person might wisely assume that the same or similar scenario might again arise with the same person. On the other hand, if it is truly an outlier, then it may be better to forget (although of course, we can't).
@yagr said "Pol Pot and Buddha, Hitler and Jesus show my potential.
The greatest selfishness and the greatest selflessness are within me."
On the surface, I see it that way, too...BUT there are so many variables (that's why we would do best to forgive); yet these variables we might want to study and learn from, so as to create the potential for not having our history repeat itself like it has been for sooo long.
@silver - I do not know if their are an infinite number of variables, but suspect that there are more than I could study in a lifetime. For many years though, I had the opportunity to observe police officers and prison guards. The vast majority joined for altruistic and honorable reasons that had nothing to do with a paycheck or wielding power over others. As the years went by, I watched as they began to dehumanize their charges.
I do not think that they were more capable of evil than I. I don't believe that they were inherently weaker than I either. And yet, the more they dehumanized those they held power over, the worse their offenses toward those people became. I've seen them beat, rape and kill those they considered less than, and act remarkably unselfishly toward those they consider equals.
I agree with you. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it is through studying and learning from these instances that I was able to arrive at the conclusion which you commented on.
All in all, the things you shared, @yagr, are hair-raisingly terrifying and it's hard, indeed to wrap one's mind - one's psyche around the hows and whys of it. Reasonable people don't want these things to happen and yet here we are! It is beyond discouraging. So, I am beyond grateful that Buddha - and company - found ways to live with these horrors. And yet there is no suggestion that we give up finding ways to improve our lot as a whole. But there does seem to be a powerful segment of 'society' that encourages us to get discouraged.
Exactly. Since we can't forget, even if we want to, don't bother trying. To do so only encourages more suffering. Instead, we can re-contextualise our relationship with the person/event in a more positive way. When you are ready -- because only you can make the choice -- forgiveness is an important part of that process.
Nothing wrong with big noses
Oi where you two from then, Nose City?
On a serious note, the one thing I struggle with/work on in regards to Compassion is that when I start to feel a bit smug about it, I imagine Hitler standing in front of me and see if I can forgive him for murdering my family in Dachau. THAT always bring me down to earth with a thud. Every. Single. Time.
_ /\ _
....And.... Can you?
Generically speaking, (To all, not to one person....) For a short instant, if you can, take away the opinion widely held by the modern civilised world, of how destructive and overwhelming the human tragedy was, and how that sits prominently in our hearts and minds. Allow for that, yes, never lose it.
But gently lay aside the natural revulsion, horror and distaste one feels for the results of his dictatorship and influence; The still-raw aversion to what happened last century.
Think a moment on what this man's objective was: To create a race of perfect people.
He wanted to completely erase and eradicate imperfections (as he perceived them).
This is why he himself refused to have children. Because he knew he himself was an imperfect specimen.
He had an aim.
Misguided, destructive, mindless and atrocious in its objective, he still had a dream of achieving something.
And if we can look past his heinous and deplorable operations and manner and means of reaching his objectives, Understand that he had a plan.
Misguided, prejudicial, and one certainly which could have been torn to shreds in a furious debate.
But he had charisma. Personality. A persuasive and at first, logical argument.
One steeped in nationalism and the desire to retain purity and idealism.
Consider how you would speak to him face to face; how you would argue against his ideals and present a different perspective. How you would state your case and demonstrate his flawed thinking.
Perhaps, maybe, just maybe, bringing him to an equal-human-level to you, in a discursive situation, we might look at him as a misguided man, rather than the embodiment of everything that is evil and hateful.
We have much the same ideology being disseminated by a so-called Islamic faction now.
Look at the havoc, mayhem and utterly disastrous chaotic effects they are having on entire countries.
It seems impossible to imagine any one of them would listen to reason....
But maybe Hitler may have done....
When we humanise a person to a level we can equate with, maybe the Compassion has room to grow....
The easy visualisations first eh ...
I would suggest that is a VERY advanced practice. I would fail.
Metta towards pain, emotion, physical and personal is not easy. It amazes me you would even try. I am glad you try. Bravo.
Personally I would take all my negativity, sharpen and heat it poker style and ram it up the deserving Herr Hitler visualisation.
I think I may be doing that toglen all wrong again ...
Yes, perfectionism often masquerades as a virtue (and one, I might add, highly encouraged in our consumerist society: "BUY NOW and everything will be GREAT") but in fact it leads to personal neurosis, social anxiety, and when combined with megalomania, genocide.
If my practice has taught me anything, it is that I am perfectly OK being flawed.
Challenging question, and interesting context. But doesn't it reduce to ends vs means?
We (rightly) remember and revile the path. But the goal is equally revulsive. As you point out, that's quite a separate matter.