Faith
Tony_A_Simien
Veteran
Faith
Faith may be essential initially.
This I do not deny.
But once faith is no longer needed we must realize that...
Faith is illusory.
A mind created idea.
Mind believes it needs something (a mind created concept called 'faith').
Something to persuade it (through reason, logic or belief; which are all mind created characteristics)
To continue its current pursuit (a pursuit which has its origins in mind).
So that it can achieve a goal (mind created the notion that there is something to be achieved).
If this goal is achieved, then there will be happiness (mind created the set of conditions required to be happy; mind has defined happiness; mind will create its own misery when its illusory conditions for happiness aren't manifested)
Mind is the Creator and Destroyer of worlds
An illusion (faith), within fantasy (mental formations), inside of a dream (this body-mind's interpretation of ALL THIS).
Comments
Yes, but until it that is fully realised we need faith to allow us to keep going. Then eventually faith will drop by itself.
Otherwise without faith, we all just go home. Do whatever, it doesn't matter. Because faith is an illusion, the goal is an illusion, happiness is a concept.
But this all needs to be realised so faith is useful but not when held on too tightly.
Faith that we will eventually wake up, keep going.
For me, faith that I have is the soil & nourishments for my buddha seed to grow, without faith there wouldn't be sprouting nor growing. If you practice without faith you would not get merits which is the proof that there exists the power of The True Law in this universe around us. Its the gifts & expedient means & blessings of the Tathagata, The True Law. ( because human are shallow, if there were no merit we would not be practicing at all ) Faith is the entrance to the Buddha way along with gratitude. Buddha keeps repeating "believe without doubt" in Lotus Sutra over and over.
I think it's more curiosity/wonder and compassion that keeps me practicing.
I don't even really understand what there is to have faith in though so there's that I guess.
The idea that one knows what faith/confidence/understanding eventually becomes is not not one I have any faith in. Most of us have faith in ideas, mind, higher powers, teachers, ourself, the flag etc.
These are star spangled creations.
However metta, mind and realization is something that we can continue to have faith in for quite a while as many others fall away.
... and now back to the faithfully mindful ...
I honestly don't understand faith. I am not knocking it, I just don't get it.
I mean, I can have faith in someone's ability to wake up to a more compassionate way of living and by extension, mankinds ability to do the same but that is based on observation.
I think it was @genkaku that suggested it was the same as optimism on another thread but I can't seem to make the leap.
For me it's largely about curiosity, the sense of discovery. But there is also the sense of having confidence in Buddhist practice as an approach, a confidence that I don't have in many other spiritual or religious paths.
It may not be your way or even skilful for everyone to pursue faith. Most faith is indoctrination and most of us are better without it. I feel it is important for those of coming from faith based religions to not replace bible quoting with sutra sucking.
The problem I more often see is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, failing to see that "faith" can simply mean "confidence".
That is how I would suggest faith can be viewed. Faith/confidence in logic, science, reasoning is confidence in its pragmatic basis.
We can have faith in music or art, even though some sounds discordant or outrageous to our sensibilities ...
A practical example: I have total faith in the underlying principle of Tara. She is a Buddhist deity that makes real qualities difficult to interact with.
Tara is a figment of my imagination. She also answers my prayers. What a babe. Why should I believe or have faith in a 'mind placebo'? Because it works.
http://jamesclear.com/power-of-placebo
But if that's the case then mind is all that we have to work with. So it would seem that transformation involves changing the state of our mind so that we see things in a different way.
You talk a lot about the mind creating this and creating that, but it's all very habitual - so how do we change the habit if not by changing the mind?
If someone have faith in his(her) own thinking, then he/she cannot have a faith in other than his thought. ( Such as Buddha's teaching ). Its important to trust Buddha's words and accept that my own thinking has limitation because we are not enlightened buddhas. being humble and respectful helps to have faith in Buddha's teaching. Knowing my own limitation helps to have faith. But most of all, once you practice(correct Law practice) with faith, you will get merits, and once you experience that, your faith grows more. Buddha described wisdom of buddhas as 不可思議 (sorry I could not find pali word for it), meaning incapable of understand with human intelligence.
@SpinyNorman
Yes. In an Unadulterated way.
This was one of my methods.
"One method is to stop words. Most of our thinking is kept going by words. It’s as though we have a dialogue going on within the mind all the time. One way is to block those words, don't let them come up. But most people can't do that unless they have trained themselves to do it. If you block those words, and keep them blocked, they'll gradually calm down and die away. This is one method."
Many teachings suggest we never block anything. But it's all dependant upon the practitioner. This may not be right for some. But will definitely work for others. As it did for me.
Source:
PDF Transcripts
The Basics of Buddhist Practice
Transcriptions of Talks given by Venerable Ajaan Paññãvaððho
Page: 147
http://www.forestdhamma.org/audio/panya-audio/
That sounds like a description of samatha meditation?
@SpinyNorman
This method you do during all activites and all postures. Doing it only seated with eyes closed wouldn't be of much help. As soon as you would arise from your seated practice the words would come rushing in.
It's meant to be done while active.
You are retraining the mind to be silent when the senses are active.
Oh, I see. So chasing thoughts away on a full-time basis?
I have faith the sun will set tonight and rise tomorrow...
Well chasing away words.
If you're looking at a cup for example. You're basically trying to stop the word cup from coming up. Which is not the same as trying to block random thoughts. You're retraining to halt words while your attention is actively engaged in that object. The image of a cup might appear in the mind but the word will be absent.
But as a result of blocking words you may find that random thoughts don't come up as often.
Also those residual impressions that normally happen as a result of attention on objects also go away. Like writing on water.
The space between thoughts becomes vast.
But it does work. Later there is no longer a need to chase anything away. It has become habitual. The mind has no need to hold on to words, images and their residuals.
Not me. I know it either will or it won't.
That's why I will tell you I love you now rather than wait.
I sometimes just think "cup" deliberately, which is interesting.
I relate with what you say here but am not past the "later" part.
@ourself
It's gradual. So gradual that you may not even be aware when it all goes away. There may simply be this awareness (consciousness) watching this empty space where mind used to appear.
Faith = believing in stories.
Actually, these conditions are extremely conductive to Vipassana practice. Because consciousness can observe without mind interfering. It can cut through the relative world very efficiently and thoroughly.
If I can ever do the same for the tinnitus it would help.
That's one interpretation, but there are others which are far easier to accommodate and accept.....
@ourself
How severe is it? To severe to use as a meditation object?
There is a form of yoga called Nada. There is a subtle sound which is always present. It can be heard when mind is absent. In Nada yoga this continuous sound is used as a meditation object.
The tone and intensity of it can change. But basically it sometimes sounds like a ringing, shrieking, 1 billion slivers of crystals blowing in the wind type tone. If this can be used as a meditation object why can't your tinnitus be used in this way?
I personally have used this practice but discontinued it because my work environment is extremely noisy (factory machinery) to make progress with it.
@ourself
Here's a link to a free ebook written by Ajahn Sumedho about this very practice. Maybe it will be of some use to you.
Book title:
The Sound of Silence
http://forestsanghapublications.org/viewBook.php?id=116&ref=deb
Only those who suffer from tinnitus can understand the hell of tinnitus.
I understand.
Yes, very often, it is. The more quiet the environment, the more intense it becomes....
There is nothing 'subtle' about tinnitus....
Because it's utterly unpleasant, invasive and at times distressing. Trying to convert it into something helpful, takes heroic and sustained effort.
Please see this thread.
The other problem I have is that so-called 'white noise' (a sound introduced to the ear, to negate the effect of tinnitus) is not only ineffective with me - but the tinnitus actually competes with it. That is to say, if I use any type of noise to distract myself from the tinnitus - it actually causes the tinnitus to increase in volume.
@federica and @ourself
I am sorry to hear that you both must live with that.
If tinnitus is as you described with every person or worse. I can imagine it might actually drive some to suicide.
Not every person would be capable of dealing with that torture like affliction.
Knowing this I now wish I had continued that practice (Nada yoga). Maybe I could have provided some useful information from experience to help alleviate your pain. I sincerely wish that I could.
@ourself and @federica
I can only imagine what it could be like because I occasionally get ringing in my ears for a while.
I suffer from Tinnitus. I don't SUFFER - from tinnitus.
it is what it is.
irritating, annoying, intrusive, invasive, distressing, at times, for some, even life-changing.
I have tinnitus.
It doesn't 'have' me.
Ah, we are the tinnies! Like @ourself and @federica, it is there every moment of every day and night.
What she said.
I have had Tinnitus so long that it is just part of the scenery. Occasionally it is all of the above. But don't feel sorry, don't play those violins.
Everyone has something.
There was a fellow who grew up without legs. He used artificial legs and was only aware of his "handicap" when others brought it up. He did quite well, lived a successful life. Feel sorry for him if you want. He did not feel sorry for himself.
There is a woman who lost an arm to a shark . She relearned how to surf at a high level and has won many professional contests. She is considered one of the top female surfers in the world. I don't feel sorry for her. I feel admiration for her determination and self-assurance. (I have trouble just standing up on a board without the surf)
We all have something. But, if we have self assurance, if we are self-confident, if we are aware, that something does not, can not and will not 'have' us.
Peace to all
Pah! Sheer luxury!
Federica,
I know that you are Theravada buddhist. So I hope its not rude if I recommend Mahayana buddhism practice ( Lotus Sutra practice ). I was suffering from illness called Hwabyeong ( its Korean illness ) for about 5 years and it was so bad and painful I was sure I was just gonna die from it eventually. I was getting treatment and taking medicine for a long long time but did not help. Then I bumped into Lotus Sutra which lead me to buddhism.
Since I started Lotus Sutra practice, my illness is gone. I know what you are suffering is not the same as what I had but if you try you might get better. It takes time and endurance but its the best thing ever happen to me. Even thought I became a buddhist for a survival purpose, I am so very thankful for this practice.
If you'd like to give it a try, I will write it down for you ( as best as I can - its quite simple in method itself, you might already have heard about it somewhere ).
Hope you get better soon. I've known someone who was suffering from tinnitus before, he was a fine musician, but because of tinnitus he had to give up his music. so I vaguely know how serious tinnitus can be. When I was sick I had it for a while too but it wasn't that bad.
Anyway, have a wonderful weekend! Sorry if I bothered you with this suggestion. Not trying to be nosy I promise!
All suggestions welcome. But I know that if nothing works, it's there, and I just live with it.
Thank you for the offer. Post it in this tinnitus thread, no problem... That way, all interested parties can have a look...
In the end, Theravada, Mahayana, it's all the three jewels and eightfold path, eh?
I have always said that there is nothing wrong with "faith", providing the person can differentiate between faith and fact. All too often people cannot.
In regard to tinnitus, Federica, have you tried acupuncture? Long ago (!) I had a friend who suffered from it greatly and got significant relief from acupuncture.
A theory, absolutely not an absolute truth
, that is based both in faith and facts is more fruitful and interesting than a mere faith or theory. Developing theories needs creativity and insights, and some faith. Perhaps better not to stuck solely in faiths and theories.
Hi Federica I've posted on the other thread if you are interested
Hope you get over that sooner than later! wishing you good luck
Life would have to be pretty bad already for tinnitus to be the reason to end it. It can be maddening yes, but there are worse afflictions.
It's just hard to use tinnitus in that way because it stays with you. No timer or anything, just varying volume and pitch with a field of crickets thrown in for good measure when it's at its worst.
I guess one could say the same thing about our arms and legs. That they're impermanent, subject to decay, and should not be attached to, but we still need to use them in support of skillful living though. The same thing with faith, we may have to part ways with faith at the end, and that perhaps is the cost of faith in itself. We may have to use our arms and legs to support us in skillful living, but it should not cost us an arm and leg to do so.